Chaos Tactica: the new (6th ed) Eldar Threat

[Gree]

So that's like pure static gunline.  Given the Eldar's mobility, do you end up dependent on the Heldrake for killiness? (depending on terrain and LOS)

I thought about giving the CSM squad a Rhino, but as I said, I'm finding Rhinos to be too fragile in 6th, especially with Eldar firepower. A Land Raider is too expensive and I had a choice between a Heldrake and the Bikes for mobility and I picked the Heldrake.

 

A lack of moblity is annoying, but I think a gunline very well might be the best way to go. I'm not going to try and match the Eldar in the speed department.

Your main opponent run allies?

No he does not, there is this one guy who runs Eldar+Dark Eldar but I've never played him.

 

My usual opponent's list is like this:

 

Farseer

Pathfinders

Dark Reapers

2 Squads of Dire Avengers each in Wave Serpent

2 Fire Prisms

Warp Spiders

 

This is at 1500pts. As you can see he took some of the better units in the Eldar Codex, the Fire Prisims in particular are a major pain. The Dark Reapers also have the ability to slaughter Marines with frightening efficiency.

[daveNYC]

So the plan is to AC down the serpents, and hopefully BM the Reapers before the drake comes on?

[Gree]

So the plan is to AC down the serpents, and hopefully BM the Reapers before the drake comes on?

More or less. Although if I can get off a shot on those Fire Prisms that's fine as well, because in my experience Fire Prisms are the biggest threat to my Marines.

[Zeroed]

Bringing a gunline vs. a shooty army sounds like a bold thing.. and I like it ;)

 

Plus, your list seems pretty solid - root them out, let them come while ignoring their cover and have them swallow a bitter spoonful of their own medicine.. 

 

One things I'd like to suggest for you to reconsider - and yes, I read what you wrote earlier - is cramping in a cheap Rhino and hiding it out of sight - once the Eldar learned how dangerous your Noise Marines are, they won't start firing on the poor thing and it might be fun to have around turn 4 for some scoring action.. and if it only brings you Linebreaker, that's still one point.. 

[Gree]

Bringing a gunline vs. a shooty army sounds like a bold thing.. and I like it

Plus, your list seems pretty solid - root them out, let them come while ignoring their cover and have them swallow a bitter spoonful of their own medicine..

One things I'd like to suggest for you to reconsider - and yes, I read what you wrote earlier - is cramping in a cheap Rhino and hiding it out of sight - once the Eldar learned how dangerous your Noise Marines are, they won't start firing on the poor thing and it might be fun to have around turn 4 for some scoring action.. and if it only brings you Linebreaker, that's still one point..

I'll take it into consideration certainly, though tt depends if I can fit the points in or how well my current list does.

[Gree]

Well, I played two games against Eldar today, and I lost both times.

 

I faced a Wraithknight for the first time it was terrifying. I couldn't kill it in time before it reached my lines by Turn 2. Behind it came the Wave Serpents to finish the job. The second game was closer, but I still lost, mostly due to Warp Spiders and constant Fire Prism bombardment.

 

I had autocannon Havocs and Noise Marine Blastmaster units behind an Aegis line and I still watch them melt away from Eldar firepower. Granted, it was better than last week's matches, but Eldar firepower was still incredibly devastating. Honestly I only did as well as I did because I got first turn. Whenever Eldar gain first turn it becomes a one-sided massacre.

 

After thinking things through I honestly don't know if I can beat Eldar. I don't know if it's just my skill as a player, but I feel there is an insurmountable gap between the Eldar Codex and the Chaos Codex, people cry cheese over the Heldrake, but I cry cheese over Fire Prisms, Warp Spiders, Wave Serpents and that Wraithknight.

 

I know I sound like I'm whining, but I can't seem to close the gap. I can't seem to deal with these unkillable skimmers or the seemingly unending hail of re-rollable AP3 and AP2 shots or just the Wraithknight that destroys my army almost singlehandedly.

[Excessus]

Against Eldar so far it's not my heavy support but the fast attack choices that has pulled the most weight in my lists. Heldrake ofc, but also bikers and spawn...

[Xenith]

Against Eldar so far it's not my heavy support but the fast attack choices that has pulled the most weight in my lists. Heldrake ofc, but also bikers and spawn...

 

Anything that has the speed to keep up with Eldar will cause them problems.

 

Likewise, anything with the range (48" and above) to make their speed useless will cause them problems.

[Gree]

Well...how exactly? I mean, Heldrake pull their weight, but I'm not really sure how Bikes or Spawn are going to be able to perform effectively against Eldar. You still have those 4+ AV12 tanks who are spitting out a frightening amount of firepower.

 

It's not too bad when I'm facing one or two Eldar tanks, but then you have a guy who runs 4-5 with Fire Prisims throwing down uncannily accurate AP3 pie plates all time it becomes an uphill struggle. It took nme five turns and uncounted Autocannon, Blastmaster and Lascannon shots along witha Heldrake to kill a Fire Prism and a Wave Serpent. But by then my army has been annhilated.

[minigun762]

With AC Havocs, you're looking at 27 shots per kill on average. That's less than one dead WS a turn if all you had was Havocs.

They are tough, and it's part of the reason I think assaulting them is the key. That or rear armor shots.

 

At a minimum, you need something that ignores cover.

[Xenith]

Minigun makes good points. This may be one of the rare instances where a dakka drak may be of more use than a baledrake, vectoring a tank, then shooting the rear armour of another.

 

The serpents will generally have a loadout that allowed power armour saves, it just puts out a lot of shots. If they are firing the shield, then they dont get the penetration downgrade ability. At best, you're looking at 7 Twin linked AP5 S6 shots per turn, butt within 24".

 

You have to nail them down. Turbo some bikes up a flank to stop them from using it, present too many targets.

 

The 5 prism army is dark and dirty. They are horrifically effective. You can also get 5 of them for ~800pts with holofields (actually, that's making me think of an army list to try out...). They key is to spread out. If the eldar are using a lot of tanks, then they will have relatively few infantry.

[Gree]

With AC Havocs, you're looking at 27 shots per kill on average. That's less than one dead WS a turn if all you had was Havocs.

They are tough, and it's part of the reason I think assaulting them is the key. That or rear armor shots.

 

At a minimum, you need something that ignores cover.

 

I had two Autocannon teams, plus a Quad-gun and another autocannon in a CSM squad. I had three Blastmasters as well. I was only able to kill a Fire Prism and a Wave Serpent, and even then Part of that was due to the Heldrake coming in with a baleflamer to the rear.

 

Even then, it largely depends on the first turn. In every game where the Eldar player got first turn they proceeded to almost wipe out my Havocs and Noise Marines before they could even fire a shot. Dark Reapers as especially devasating witht he Tempest launcher, even if I try to spread out my guys.

 

 

Minigun makes good points. This may be one of the rare instances where a dakka drak may be of more use than a baledrake, vectoring a tank, then shooting the rear armour of another.

 

The serpents will generally have a loadout that allowed power armour saves, it just puts out a lot of shots. If they are firing the shield, then they dont get the penetration downgrade ability. At best, you're looking at 7 Twin linked AP5 S6 shots per turn, butt within 24".

 

You have to nail them down. Turbo some bikes up a flank to stop them from using it, present too many targets.

 

The 5 prism army is dark and dirty. They are horrifically effective. You can also get 5 of them for ~800pts with holofields (actually, that's making me think of an army list to try out...). They key is to spread out. If the eldar are using a lot of tanks, then they will have relatively few infantry.

 

He didn't have 5 prisms in the game. To clarify me earlier statement his exact loadout depends on what size game I play but it's usually 2-3 Wave Serpents and 2 Prisms or 1 Prism and a Nightspinner.

 

I've heard bikes, but from my experience with Eldar I'm not optimistic. Even with Nurgle bikes boosting to get the 4+ cover saves my opponents usually can force enough S6 and S7 saves to kill them anyway. Warp Spiders and Dark Reapers are especially effective in my experience against Bikes.

 

While it's not craftworld Eldar, I did use Nurgle bikes against Dark Eldar. They died in the first turn as he took them out from the other side of the board. They died before they could do anything at all, even with T6. And craftworld Eldar IMO have even better shooting.

 

I mean, I appreciate all of these suggestions, but I've tried alot of what people are suggesting and it's just not working. I don't know if it's just because I'm a bad player or the Eldar players are really good, but nothing seems to work against Eldar save for Blastmasters, and even then the Eldar can still counter.

[Brother Ambroz]

How many games have you played against this guy? Seems like alot of it might be bad rolling as well.

[Excessus]

Well, to sum it up, Eldar are nasty... :(

[minigun762]

I think you misunderstood me.

My point was I don't think Chaos can generate the required volume of shooting to reliably destroy a half dozen Eldar Skimmers at range.

 

I think we are forced to assault them or get into their rear armor to kill them effectively.

[Brother Ambroz]

Hmm maybe Maulerfiends, spawn and bikers might be a good idea.

[minigun762]

A drake only vector striking is better than four ACs worth of firepower. Even a Baleflamer has 50:50 chance of taking a HP off if you hit the rear.

[Gree]

How many games have you played against this guy? Seems like alot of it might be bad rolling as well.

 

It's not just one guy. We generally have 3-4 Eldar players at my local meta. One runs what is basically Mech Eldar, likes to take Fire Prisms and Nightspinners. Very mobile and fast. Another one favors Rangers with that sniper special character and another uses a Wraithknight. All use Wave Serpents and Dire Avengers. Two use Dark Reapers. All pretty much massacre their opponent if they get first turn.

 

I've played 6-7 games against the Eldar since they got their new Codex. I've used both my loyalists and Chaos. I've watched other games against Guard and Tau. It's a bit more than just bad rolling going on.

[TheDevourer]

I´m frightened of the mech wave serpent list than any of the other listed armies, which in my experience can be dealt with quite well. 

 

However, 4 Waveserpents and 3 Prisms as a friend plays, along with some Warp spider support is just disgusting. 

 

I have managed to beat it twice though. Once with a Chaos Daemons Circus (Even though he had first turn and none of my FMC were flying because of that) and once by just swarming objectives and killing important targets with drakes. Playing another game, this time at 1850 tomorrow. Very scared, but perhaps I can prevail. 

 

I don´t think I will be able to pull a circus win again... The mass high strength shots should really have killed me. But somehow Fateweaver survived and all the troop choices I spawned with the glyph managed to win me the game because he chose to ignore them. 

[Excessus]

Remember that the Vector Strike ignores cover saves as well. Everything counts! :)

[Gree]

So....take more Heldrakes basically?

[Excessus]

So....take more Heldrakes basically?

Well, it IS our codex answer to everything...  :P

[TheDevourer]

It ain´t called Codex: Heldrakes and friends by non chaos players for no reason :D

[minigun762]

I ran the numbers and a Serpent who blows their shield will kill just under three MEQ assuming everything is TL'd.

[Excessus]

It's still a lot of shots for DPs, GDs, vehicles, bikers and such...