Tanks - is there any point to them these days?

[Montuhotep]

Okay, I apologise if this comes across as a whinge because I don't mean it to be, and it may just be a result of poor dice or the plain fact that I might not know how to utilise them properly.

 

 But is there any point to the gun-armed metal box in 6th Ed.?

 

With the changes to the vehicle rules that now mean a tank can be glanced to death and the general rise of shooting above combat that this edition has heralded (never seem to get the balance right, do they?) and the traditional killers such as Lascannon and Melta of all varieties is there still any reason  to taking a tank or two in an army or would I be better off plowing those points into more men?

 

 When I mean 'tank' it's a broad definition that includes anything not a transport Rhino or even the gun-armed Razorback.

 

 I'm personally not seeing much mobile armour in my local group as in the past - is this a generic tendency or am I missing a trick here?

[Hellios]

It depends what you want them to do... 

 

However, I've seen many people suggest go armour heavy if you are going to take armour. If you take 1 or 2 vehicles... They will be the target for every Anti-Tank weapon the enemy has.

[Kabbala]

Generally, it is going to come down to your local playing area.  As it seems the general internet consensus seems to be "tanks are useless this edition," people tend to be ditching the anti-tank weapons as well for more plasma/autocannons.  Which means when I roll up with my AV 13-14 vehicles, they have a hell of a time taking them down.  

[Koremu]

I think the removal of the "glance and stunlock" mechanic has actually made tanks more of a threat on the battlefield.

 

That said, the advice for tanks is the same as it's ever been - if you are taking tanks, take a lot of them. Target saturation is everything. I would also advocate taking some fast moving threats to act as outriders - Land Speeders are ideal.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It depends what you want them to do... 

 

However, I've seen many people suggest go armour heavy if you are going to take armour. If you take 1 or 2 vehicles... They will be the target for every Anti-Tank weapon the enemy has.

 

 

I think the removal of the "glance and stunlock" mechanic has actually made tanks more of a threat on the battlefield.

 

That said, the advice for tanks is the same as it's ever been - if you are taking tanks, take a lot of them. Target saturation is everything. I would also advocate taking some fast moving threats to act as outriders - Land Speeders are ideal.

 

Exactly what these two said.  And if your meta has gone completely infantry heavy, then that usually means that they've also gone heavy on infantry-killing weapons rather than tank-killing weapons.  If you then put 3-4 AV11 and another 2-3 AV13 vehicles on the table, your opponents will (at first) be largely unable to kill them all fast enough to make a huge difference.  Also remember that tanks are not necessarily there to kill other tanks.  True Destructor-pattern Predators, Vindicators, the two alternate types of Land Raider, and the oft-forgotten Whirlwind are all good infantry-killers.

 

The thing to remember about shifts in the metagame is that tactical considerations are in a constant state of flux, changing with each new edition and often with new codex releases as well.  Just look at the last two, Tau and Eldar.  Both have dramatically increased their ability to kill mass volumes of Space Marines -- with ion accelerators and Bladestorm/increase in Distort weapons, respectively -- so an easy counter to losing all your Space Marines in the first turn or two is to load them up in metal boxes and force to break out his can openers if he wants to get to the chewy bits inside.  Changes like this are slowly forcing Marine players to abandon the all-infantry army and is swinging the pendulum back to the middle ground between leg infantry and mechanized infantry.

[DarkGuard]

I think the removal of the "glance and stunlock" mechanic has actually made tanks more of a threat on the battlefield.

 

That said, the advice for tanks is the same as it's ever been - if you are taking tanks, take a lot of them. Target saturation is everything. I would also advocate taking some fast moving threats to act as outriders - Land Speeders are ideal.

 

So true. People see Hull Points and go "wooot, tanks are awful now, why take them?!". No, this is not true. Tanks are balanced now, IMO. On the short term they're actually harder to kill and stun lock, on the long term though they will die. Ever spend a game in 5th Ed doing nothing but shaking a Rhino? You pen it 5 times and it still isn't dead. So annoying! Thing of the past with HPs. I like the mechanic now. Yes it can be annoying, and yes it's an adjustment, but it's a great idea that's been well implemented IMO.

 

Tanks are still good. Tanks can fire for longer periods of time uninterrupted, and can move further and still fire, even if only at BS1. And then transports are now actually transports, and not glorified bunkers. These were good changes were balanced tanks and makes them good still. As others have said, if you want to take tanks, take a few, unless you're taking a couple of Preds, whose front armour will keep them alive. In my army I still take about 3 Rhinos, 2 Vindicators and 2-4 Speeders, plus a Stormtalon, and possibly a Razorback or Dreadnought, all depending of course. It works well because there's a lot there, and because tanks are still dangerous.

 

That probably seemed like a bit of rant. Suppose it was. :P

[Boom Stick]

In my meta Necrons are the army of choice and I try to take no tanks. One round of fire by gauss by one squad and my tank is gone.

 

Not worth it with necrons...

[Robert2004]

I like to use a few tanks in my army, they act as a distraction! i had a necron player try to gauss a predator to death for two turns, all the while my captain and two men (all that were left) of a tactical squad managed to walk up and hit them in the face ha ha!

 

They have a part in a game, I try to take 2-3 rhino/razorback, a predator and dreadnaught at least! = ]

[Koremu]

In my meta Necrons are the army of choice and I try to take no tanks. One round of fire by gauss by one squad and my tank is gone.

 

Not worth it with necrons...

Don't just take 1 tank.

[nurglez]

I often use a few tanks, 3-5 at 1500 and they do ok. Sure sometimes my Rhino's have given up first blood, and other times they've helped protect a squad from getting charged and denied overwatch (dirge casters are cool). My usual list has a single landraider and 2 rhino's, and they do what I expect them to.

 

Lets face it, against gauss heavy necrons, your vehicles could have died to a single lucky glance back in 5th, now they require a minimum of 3-4 glances. 

 

As mentioned above, saturation is they key, unless you are outflanking them and using them for an extra move before jumping out and slagging a squad with plasmas or meltas.

[Boom Stick]

 

 

 

In my meta Necrons are the army of choice and I try to take no tanks. One round of fire by gauss by one squad and my tank is gone.

 

Not worth it with necrons...

Don't just take 1 tank.

I guess I wasn't to clear. I usually run 3 or 4 tanks, combination of rhinos and preds. With rapid fire and small squad size as not overkill any one tank they just give him easy kill points.

[WarriorFish]

Meta considerations aside, target saturation is always beneficial but with tanks it's almost core to their effectiveness. Go big or go by foot is the only mantra you need remember!

 

That and they should be supported too, ideally by some infantry to help cover them from assault and such. Units work better in tandem, especially with different unit types. You should categorise the tanks too, for example lots of Rhinos don't aid the saturation of heavier armour like Predators that much.

[Hellios]

Oh and if you can get cover saves... it makes them last so much longer. That is why Eldar tanks with 4+ cover saves are probably going to be a pain, or a Dark Angel player I've been having a dispute with on this board likes to give his Land Raiders a 4++ with the force field thing they can take... A few codices have a way of granting a save of some sort to vehicles (or all units within X of Y), but you can also try and use terrain :). I've had someone complain when all they can see of my dreadnought is the Lascannon pointing from behind a building :P... Which often gives me a 3+ as they can only see the side armor, but the front is often the side facing them :P.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hull Points went too far.  Tanks are too fragile now.  Especially things like 'venerable' Dreads, who really don't care about rerolling Penetrating hits, as they get glanced to death.

 

That being said, some tanks are awesome.

 

Consider a GK HB Razorback with Psybolt Ammo.  50 points for a S6 Heavy Bolter 'team'.

 

You get a large base that's immune to Lasguns/Bolters (from the front), with three 'wounds'.  That is in essence relentless and can block LoS.  Let alone provide transport options.

 

50 points is what, 16.66 points per wound?  Or rather 16.66 points per 'mini' in your heavy weapon squad.  A Squad that doesn't lose rof until all three members are killed.

 

About the same cost as a marine, yet has a single shot Twin Linked S6 36" range gun, and has better than a 2+ save versus small arms fire.  And who also doesn't take up a FoC slot.

 

Really, what's not to like? ;)

[Fibonacci]

 

In my meta Necrons are the army of choice and I try to take no tanks. One round of fire by gauss by one squad and my tank is gone.

 

Not worth it with necrons...

Don't just take 1 tank.

This will be a few moer than "one squad" or at least more than a bog standard squad.  The necron players out here take 18 warriors per squad so that in range they can generate 4 glances on average. 

 

Keep your long range armor at long range.

Don't sit in the open; find cover.

18 necron warriors is a lot of fire power with a big point cost.  If they waste a turn of shootiong to kill a 35 point rhino, who cares?  Better still, pop smoke and let them waste a turn TRYING to kill a rhino.

 

But in the end, you need more targets to force them to shoot at the target of your choice.  If there is only on LRC, they only have one choice and it sux to see that wreaked right away.

[corlinjewell]

Its nice to be able to move and shoot heavy weapons at full BS (which someone already mentioned), and due to the free pivot move, good depolyment for something like a Predator means that you will be firing three heavy weapons (I run mine with autocannon/lascannons) for only 120 points (which is way cheaper than a Dev squad with a couple of lascannons).   Plus, with more and more people switching to high-volume shots to deal with pesky cover saves this edition, I haven't seen as many anti-tank weapons scattered about.  I think they are worth it

[Ming]

I find that most people who complain about tanks in 6th just make mistakes with them.  They serve only one of two purposes: Fire Support or Infantry delivery.  There is also a third use - LOS-blocking terrain...

 

For your first turn deployment, all tanks should either be in terrain or in reserve. 

 

All tanks need a weapon that out-ranges the opponent's typical 24 or 30-inch range (plasma or melta) AT weapons.   

 

Tanks with short-range infantry-clearing weapons (heavy flamers, etc.) won't work well in this edition unless they are fast, skimmers, or you hold them to just respond to enemy advances into their range (that way they stay in cover until used to counterattack). 

 

Overall, a good way to measure out the value of adding a tank to a gunline list boild down to the cost of the tank's weapons vs the cost of similar infantry squads and what you expect to do with them (your tactics) and their need to survive.

 

Example - 10 tactical marines with a lascannon and a plasma gun vs 5 (or 6)  marines with a razorback and las-plas turret.

 

Another example - 10 terminators with 2 CMLs vs 5 Terminators in a Landraider