Beating IG?

[himkano]

This is not a whine, but I am stumped, so I am coming to the pros.  I played two games against the IG yesterday, and got pounded.  I am a pretty decent player, but I have no idea how to beat this army.  He was playing IG armor company from one of the new FW books, but I think he could have made pretty much the same army from the IG codex (except the two HQ).

 

His army was 1 executioner LR, 2 LR demolishers (they were low profile demolishers from the FW codex (so they didn't block LOS from behind), 1 HQ (LR with battle cannon), 1 LR (It was a HQ, with a monster killer shell - S8, AP2, 72", instant death small blast),  2 units of 2 artlillery (the S9, AP 2 or 3 barrage), and 2 transports with veteran squads.  - There might have been another tank, but I can't remember for sure.  All of the tanks were boxed against the edge of the board with a ADL, and all of the tanks that could, had cammo netting.  Now the ID weapon and the commander that let every tank re-roll the first miss of each turn was unique to FW, but everything else is pretty standard.

 

A wall of tanks and artillery, that have a 3+ cover save, and blast weapons that ignore armor and/or cover / LOS.  I was playing eldar, but I also play BA, Marines, and GK, and I cannot think of any list that really has a chance (even holding objectives is hard, since you have to get out of the vehicle, and there are 4 templates waiting for you) (Granted the table was all linear cover, so some area terrain would have made a difference).

 

Anyway, I am looking for ideas.  People who play this army, how do people beat you?  I am thinking maybe bikes with melta (less susceptible to barrage), but other than that...

[Warhead01]

Sounds like you needed something to run down the flank and shoot side armour. maybe a flyer? or squadron of speeders. or bikers?

I know it's easier said then done. But I would run the flank as fast as I could and support by fire with lasscannons or very aggressive transports moving up to scare the other player. like a rhino rush or razerbacks moving up to shoot the russes to provide a lot of scary shooting and possibly the threat of hand to hand. to distract him from the fast moving tank busters I would choose to send down the flank.. The transports don't really need to have men in them just move up fast block los or make it all the way up. or maybe a few small squads say 5 strong ride up and hope for the best. granted it's all easier said then done. heck. add to that deepstriking terminators. and make the flankers scout bikes. don't they have homing beacons?

Hope that helps. but I would use that on just about anyone staying dug in like that. except maybe nidz..not sure where they are concerned.

[Argun]

Personally, it sounds like this list you are up against is severely lacking in anti-air...

What I would do, is get some allies that can use drop-pods, and come in behind those tanks. Sure they're AV 14... on the front. To minimize casualties, always make sure when running against this list to space infantry 2" apart if possible. Minimizes chances of blast casualties.

If you need survivability, get some termies behind his tanks, and get them close so he has to worry about hitting himself if he targets you. I'd concentrate fire on that HQ who gives the re-rolls first, then possibly go for the demolishers..

[Sviar]

What I would do, is get some allies that can use drop-pods,

I was just going to suggest this, but you beat me to it Two DP with Combi-Melta Sternguards and a Whilrwind if they hide behins some terrain piece. But through the DPs you get close fast to deliver a much needed blow on your oppenets side.

[hendrik]

also, he has no scoring units besides those two overcosted veteran squads. I'm an armoured battalion player myself but i always ally with normal guards to get at least 50"ish bodies on the table to capture objectives. his list lacks those. take out the veterans and all he can do is try to massacre you in an objective based game.

 

of the armies listed you own i believe bloodangels can be the largest thread to them.

here's a list of great units to take against them.

-assault marines with meltagun, meltabombs (to throw), PF. deadly since almost none of his tanks will have moved

-tactical squad: meltagun/plasmagun in a droppod, with locator beacon

you'll want at least 1-2 droppods in the army, they can deepstrike relatively safely right into his army due to the droppod guidance system. the locator beacon ensures everyone else arrives safely within 6" of them without scattering. this is HUGE!

-furioso librarian dreadnought with flying powers, he's fast, and tough in CC! not to mention fast. however it relies on psychic powers

-land speeders: dual multi melta can beat his armour! especially if helped with deepstriking due to locator beacons. not to mention they might get a jink save against the subsequent shooting phrase.

-attack bike squadrons, multimeltas. these are far better then the normal bike squads.

-dreadnoughs: multi melta,droppod. that's 150 pts of "up yours" right into his face.

 

Key to winning against this list is to saturate him with threats that are nearby. it will be better to have 3 smaller units with meltas then to have one big one with 3 meltas, why? because those 3 melta suqads all have to be targetted individually, and with the list you gave he can only target 7 units a turn (sinc ehis artillery won't be able to shoot, he won't dare to do it, honestly.

play a mobile force, one that can dictate how he'll move. with multiple very mobile threads you can attack his armour from all sides.

Also, don't be affraid to take huge risks. my bloodangel opponent frequently deepstrikes right into my army, taking a lot of risk for deepstrike mishaps, however,when he does arrive i often find myself in a position where i'm even hesitant how to react to his move,shoudl i survive the turn, since the scatter dice have an equal chance of landing on me sometimes.

 

really, just play aggresively.

 

yet remember to be a gentleman

 

 

edit: i would actually advise against taking the expensive flyers. since his setup will mean you won't be able to do fly overs. dropping right down in, next to and in front of his battle line is where you want to be! ;)

[himkano]

Thanks for the feed back - I agree that being more aggressive is probably the key - just a note, if he lines up in the back corner, there isn't really a flank or a place to DS behind.  He actually did drop the artillery right on his ADL (although without the guy that lets every tank re-roll he might not have taken the chance).  He doesn't really need LOS with the artillery, so using Rhinos to block didn't work (I did that with wave serpents).

 

I agree that more melta and more speed are the answers - I was trying not to make a tailored list though, more of an all comers (I am afraid that a list that can fight these tanks would do less well against anything else.  

 

Thanks 

[WarriorFish]

If you don't want to tailor (and against such a list, even I'd advocate tailoring at least a little) then the best thing to do is be extremely aggressive and close the gap as soon as possible. Assaulting his tanks is the way to annihilate them quickly (don't forget multiple charges), this works very well with Marines and their kraks as you'd expect. Outflanking and Deep Strike units could be helpful too.

Alternatively you could ask your opponent if he'd rather play a 4th Edition game since he loves gun line death-from-boredom games so much...

[Hellios]

I've seen a $%$$% drop an armored company (Including a baneblade) on a little kid in a GW store for a 2,000 point game without any warning. The kid was unsurprisingly concerned. He was playing Black Templars, and it certainly wasn't decked out to face an armored company. I just gave him some help with his deployment (If it could DS it did), and by thanks to some lucky rolls (this was 5th edition) his reserves all came on in turn 2... His assault squad actually scattered into a better position behind one of the tanks. Plasma pistols to the rear armor... BOOM! Dreadnought landed and slagged another tank. His baneblade was then exposed on its right flank and was blocking LoS so his other tanks couldn't help it. This combined with some shooting and most of the army hiding in terrain meant that the kid was happy to go on and fight.

 

Basically I wanted to echo what the others said. Being aggressive and up in their face works. Also, if you are really close it makes it difficult to target you with large templates :P Lots of small but dangerous targets also means they can only do a limited amount of damage in one round of shooting.

[spafe]

I'm not an expert on eldar, but do firedragons have melta bombs? I know the hawks have haywire which will work. If he's parking lot it, go traffic warden on his ***** and try to multi assult tanks that are close together and im guessing havent moved. only need 3/4 tickets per parking voilation to remove problem

[Hellios]

Eldar should be able to deal with armored companies. That being said this is the B&C, The conversation should be kept to GKs, BAs and Vanilla Marines.

[spafe]

true, sorry for venturing into xenos. in which case, change your traffic wardens from xenos scum to pretty much any large marine unit, even krak grenades will get through a lot of that rear armour

[hendrik]

unless he actually places all of his tanks right next to each other you'll have room to drop in at least 1-2 pods without any danger. remember they guide themselves away from terrain or enemy units. their locator beacon can then be used to drop the remaining units within 6" without scattering i believe so unless your droppod scatters of the table, there will be some room. it doesn't need to be much room even, just enough so you can fit in 1-2 units to annoy him massivly. you can also deepstrike in his side and front,using your droppods to block his LOS.

 

also, don't think of it as tailoring since the only tailoring part on this list is that instead of bringing plasmaguns or flamers with them, now all units quickly grab/mount melta weapons on them. any tech priest could equip such a standard force in a couple of hours while the task force themself debriefs upon the task at hand.

@helios, that list was unofficial. even though the special character baneblade model is a HQ choice for an armoured battalion force it's still apocalyps only.

 

 

i've taken the liberty to mock up a 1500/2000 pts list since that's what his list seems like to be.

 

-captain: PW, infernus pistol, melta bombs, jumppack 160 pts

-tactical sqd (10): melta gun, multi melta (FREE,DUH!!), combimelta, droppod; locator beacon 230 pts

-tactical sqd (10): melta gun, multi melta (FREE,DUH!!), combimelta, droppod; locator beacon 230 pts

-tactical sqd (10): melta gun, multi melta (FREE,DUH!!), droppod; locator beacon 220 pts

-assault sqd(5): meltagun, meltabombs 115 pts

-assault sqd(5): meltagun, meltabombs 115 pts

-attack bike sqd (2): 2x multimelta 100 pts

-attack bike sqd(2): 2x multimelta 100 pts

-land speeder: 2x multi melta 80 pts

-dreadnought: multi melta, droppod: locator beacon 150 pts

 

and for 2000 pts add on the following, making sure you get double force org chart:

-librarian: jump pack 125 pts

-assault sqd(5): meltagun, meltabombs 115 pts

-assault sqd(5): meltagun 110 pts

-dreadnought: multimelta, droppod: locator beacon 150 pts.

 

Now you might think this list is tailored, however think of it this way:

-this is a droppod force, it will rely on droppodding elements anyway

-those 5 man assault marine units are a split up unit, each given a meltabomb and meltagun for the mission at hand. for standard games you could join them back together.

-the tactical marines know they'll face armour so take melta weapons. and since they are droppodding in any heavy weapon that's for free is simply a bonus. for normal games you could throw in some (combi-)plasma or (combi)flamers instead.

the dreadnoughts are the only tailored items really, give them an AC for normal games

[Hellios]

Oh, I know it wasn't legal. I'd just rather beat the smug %$^&^ rather than point it out. I was mainly using it as anecdote of how even an all-comers list, if used appropriately can cause an armored company problems. 

[himkano]

Thanks for more input, although I think some of you don't understand the power of this list (again, not complaining, and I appreciate the input, but there is no "behind him", his 4 large S9, AP3 templates don't need LOS, and if I drop pod something, they get 1 turn to run, or shoot, before they are significantly reduced in combat effectiveness)

 

That being said, I appreciate the input, because now I see it might be a 2-prong solution - aggressive by itself was not enough (i tired that, although I was ill-equipped with only S4 grenades), but really aggressive and massive target saturation might do it.  If every drop pod combat-squaded and moved to separate - could they space out enough? (I would say has to be drop pod - which means I need to buy some), because then they can risk getting close, and they can move on landing (so that they can spread out)

[hendrik]

could you mock up a quick sketch of how he typically deploys his army? i really cannot immagine there is not a single way you can get some droppods in there, or at the very least create a weak point you can then pour through in the following turns. if he moves he loses his cover safe, remember that!

I'm an armoured battalion player myself so i do kind of know what hurts my own army. i would be in for a real hurt facing up against that list i posted for you

[hendrik]

NVM, flawed logic, you're talking about basilisks offcourse and not the huge pie dropping manticores!

[himkano]

Actually, to be fair, he probably was not playing his vindicators correctly (basically the marine shape, but on LR chasis - in FW), he is terrible about following pivot rules for guns (like trying to use sponsons to shoot through the vehicle, and I try not to be a rules lawyer - so it is possible that 2 of his guns couldn't swivel enough to hit me - actually, that might apply to basilisks too, can they pivot, or do they have a firing arc.

 

Ok, so his deployment, start in back right corner of his deployment zone (so the board edge is to his right and his rear).  Place 1 basilisk in corner, then 1 to the left, touching the first.  Then a LR with a BC, then 2 more basilisks.  Then in front of the 1st basilisk, 1 Chimera, next to that 2 LR demolisher things (described above, then another chimera, and (maybe) 1 more Leman Russ.  They are all touching each other (no space between), and they are all in an ADL on two sides (and table edges on the other two sides).  There is a Qaud gun jammed in, so the guys can get out and shoot if there are aircraft).

 

The more I think about it, the more I think that the guns have a limited pivot, which would make a huge difference.

[redmapa]

So he has all his vehicles touching each other inside an ADL? a couple of drop pods with meltas would hurt like hell to that deployment, just drop and get as close as possible to his vehicles and he wont be able to place a large blast without risking blasting himself

 

basilisks and artillery can pivot normally and fire, artillery have a minimum range to fire indirectly, i think its 12'' for basilisks, so just stay within the minimum range and he'll need LOS to fire

[Warhead01]

Earthshaker has a minimum of 36" I do not know if they can choose to direct fire.

[Argun]

Earthshaker has a minimum of 36" I do not know if they can choose to direct fire.

they can. it's saved mine quite often... but sometimes... I don't know how they manage to hit themselves and allies...

[hendrik]

exactly as redmapa said! get in close and get in hot, and preferably from the side!! almost all of his weapons will scatter.the artyellery even 2D6, now that is huge considering you'll hopefully be within 6" of him. Really, such a deployment actually is shooting fish in a barrel since after the initial drop you won't have to move. all of your tactical squads will get to fire both their meltagun and their multimelta, and your other reserves now arive safely without scattering (he'll ignore those pods and try to ruin their contents, trust me!

you really ought to use the list i made up for you(you might even want to have more droppodding units in it instead of those assault marines to deliver an even bigger alpha strike) and do a battle repport. with some good dice rolling i don't expect the game to last beyond turn 2....

and yest, those thunderers (the vindicator like tanks) have a limited firing arc. get within 6" of them and he'll be dreaded to roll since these scatter 2D too.

here's my target priority:

-the HQ tank: (will grant you first blood and slay the warlord)

-anything you see that has its side armour facing you. even leman russes have weak sides!

in the next turn he'll try to destroy everything that can fire at him, and quite frankly, i assume he'll still have a large fraction of his army standing ready. expect to take huge losses, ignore these and advance with the already dropped troops while the second wave comes in. charging his vehicles is a great tactic too!

[spafe]

Just a quick one, if you try and drop pod literally an inch from the front of his adl, is there anyhting saying you can use the cover save from the otehr side? just get your men out up to the barrier (touching the oppersite side to the tanks), and profit from the increased coversave against those pie plates. If your podding your safe from scatter onto him.

 

And yeah, from what I remember, bassies and the hull mounted demolishers would have to pivot to shoot you, if they cant, then they wont be able to see you. so his set up of tanks touching each other means that they can only fire directly ahead

[WarriorFish]

Get in close as soon as possible, he can't position pie plates that touch his own models so if you're desperate run every model as close as possible to one of his. Don't forget to move away from the Drop Pod (if that's your entry method) as he'll probably be able to target that without clipping one of his models and hope it scatters on to your troops.

 

The description you gave of how he deploys is... pretty bad. Not just from a tactical point of view but also game wise - with his units rubbing up against each other they'll be very limited. Get him to follow the rules properly and you'll suddenly find your mountain more of a hill. With steps and a nice bench at the top for you to enjoy the view as you eat lunch.

 

Quick reference:

- Turrets have up to 360 degrees - they can't point where the model won't let them

- Hull weaponry has a 45 degree arc facing fowards

- Sponsons on Russ tanks have about a 60ish degree arc, again only where the gun may point

 

There's a page in the rulebook that details this, but unfortunately I'm at work so I can't find the page number for you.

[Warhead01]

This thread has me thinking about building an armour battalion in the near future. I was one at WIP a few years ago that looked very nice all the infantry were Death Korps that looked very good and slightly moded vehicles. I have an abundance of ..well everything I need. I don't think this list is all that playable though. er the one described here. I would want more troops in transports but the tanks could deploy ahead of my troops to soften .....I will stop their I am getting excited..lol

The ADL around his tanks seems kind of weird though. And after reading a lot of the ideas to beat this list I would lean toward droppods. wave after wave of them. This would be a loosing game either way though. from a points perspective. you could manage to table him but it will hurt!

[Office temp]

I wouldn't think an ADL would be able to cover that much territory.