How does Look out sir work, with character failed save?

[Magpie]

What on earth are you talking about?

I'm not suggesting you take all LoS rolls at once, I am saying you should do it as per the rules and do each wound one at a time.

That way the Character can't pick and choose to avoid wounds.

[Dam13n]

Lets put it another way. Using your Libby and Paladin example.

 

The Libby is in front.

 

The unit suffers # wounds (where # is the number of wounds required to cause at least 3 unsaved wounds)

 

I would choose to look out sir at first:

If I take an unsaved wound it can occur due to:

- eventuality 1 - I fail a look out and a save and the Libby takes a wound

- eventuality 2 - I pass a look out sir then fail a save and a paladin takes a wound

 

At this point (following mixed saves) I can decide to keep looking out sir or not

- eventuality 1 - I would keep looking out as I don't want my 100+ pt character to be killed.

- eventuality 2 - I could stop looking out sir (if I wanted to try and avoid losing a model)

 

Now I continue until another unsaved wound is caused:

- eventuality 1 could play out as noted above (either the Libby takes another wound and dies, ending look out sir procedures, or a paladin takes a wound)

- eventuality 2 would play out until the Libby takes a wound

 

At this point I would either have:

- a dead Libby

- a Libby on 1 wound and a Paladin on 1 wound

 

The dead Libby means no more look out sirs

 

The 1 wound each scenario will play out using look out sirs for each wound as it's better to lose a 55pt Paladin than a 100+pt Libby.

 

Now I'm still deciding whether to look out sir based upon unsaved wounds not total wounds.

 

The wounds I've saved are still irrelevant to the process as are the look out sirs that I did (or did not) take on those wounds.

[Squirrelloid]

As if 'Look Out Sir' and the associated rules for taking wounds weren't bad enough for eating time unnecessarily, people who don't get math complaining about statistically identical procedures for speeding it up only ensure that it takes longer.  Seriously, taking wounds in 5th edition was so much simpler, and all the excess complication of 6th edition doesn't really gain you anything...

[Spinsanity]

So, Magpie, your issue is, if I understand correctly, the following imaginary situation :

Having assigned a wound to the Paladin, the GK player would assign one to the Libby voluntarily to his Libby to avoid killing the pally, knowing all the remaining saves will be passed and he therefore won't die?

 

Seriously, if you're worried about such a gamey tactic, go ahead and insist wounds be played one at a time. I'll be more than happy to let my opponent assign a wound to his libby since he has now done half the work of getting rid of the fool for me.

[Magpie]

I'm not worried about a gamey tactic but it appears that GW is. Certainly a corner stone of the Paladins power in 5th Ed was to play wound allocation games.

LoS after saves is a way to play those games again, albeit not to the same degree.

 

The wisdom or not of doing so is irrelevant that fact that it can be done is why GW have issued the FAQ and why it makes sense to resolve it that way. 

[Spinsanity]

BTW, arguing this specific situation is pretty irrelevant. This is one where fast-dice-rolling (FDR) is not advised. So why complain that our FDR mechanic is not appropriate to your situation where even going by-the-book and following the official FDR method is ill-advised?

 

When you FDR, rolling AS first avoids unnecessary rolls :

- You roll all saves

- You roll LoS for all the saves that passed, and assign wounds accordingly

Instead of :

- You roll all LoS

- You roll all saves for your character

- You roll all saves for your regular models

- You assign wounds as required, and any excess wounds on the character gets assigned to the unit

 

That's one extra set of rolls which could have been avoided and was unnecessary.

 

And once again, this is not a situation that will arise often. How often have you faced a player that tried to abuse this attaching a character to a paladins or nobz unit so they could potentially once-a-turn assign a wound to a RnF model without actually killing it (at the expense of risking their character instead) tactic ?

[Squirrelloid]

BTW, arguing this specific situation is pretty irrelevant. This is one where fast-dice-rolling (FDR) is not advised. So why complain that our FDR mechanic is not appropriate to your situation where even going by-the-book and following the official FDR method is ill-advised?

 

When you FDR, rolling AS first avoids unnecessary rolls :

- You roll all saves

- You roll LoS for all the saves that passed, and assign wounds accordingly

Instead of :

- You roll all LoS

- You roll all saves for your character

- You roll all saves for your regular models

- You assign wounds as required, and any excess wounds on the character gets assigned to the unit

 

That's one extra set of rolls which could have been avoided and was unnecessary.

 

And once again, this is not a situation that will arise often. How often have you faced a player that tried to abuse this attaching a character to a paladins or nobz unit so they could potentially once-a-turn assign a wound to a RnF model without actually killing it (at the expense of risking their character instead) tactic ?

 

It's worse than that, because the actual procedure is:

 

While there are wounds in the pool (

While a character is the closest model to the firing unit (

-Take a LoS test

--Pass: determine closest model

---Roll AS for that model

--Fail: roll AS for character

))

 

So you have to roll 1 LoS, then resolve that wound, then roll another LoS, then resolve that wound.  How do you turn what should be a 2 minute 'count up the number of failed saves and remove models' procedure into a half-hour long monotonous waste of time?  Require every roll to be made individually!  Yay?

[Spinsanity]

So you have to roll 1 LoS, then resolve that wound, then roll another LoS, then resolve that wound.  How do you turn what should be a 2 minute 'count up the number of failed saves and remove models' procedure into a half-hour long monotonous waste of time?  Require every roll to be made individually!  Yay?

I know the actual process IS convoluted and takes forever. However, when faced with a situation where your intent is to avoid wounding your character/sergeant as much as possible (and thus rolling LoS on ALL incoming wounds), there's no reason to go trough the whole process. Simpify things and batch-roll, rolling AS first and then LoS on failed saves to see who failed those saves.

 

My gripe, here, is that there's no reason whatsoever to argue the validity of this method regarding a situation where fast-dice-rolling is ill-advised. Why bother saying this method is not adequate when ANY (fast-dice-rolling) method would be? Just go trough the whole process as laid out in the rulebook, of course.

[Magpie]

Because guys you are w

 

It's worse than that, because the actual procedure is:

 

While there are wounds in the pool (

While a character is the closest model to the firing unit (

-Take a LoS test

--Pass: determine closest model

---Roll AS for that model

--Fail: roll AS for character

))

 

So you have to roll 1 LoS, then resolve that wound, then roll another LoS, then resolve that wound.  How do you turn what should be a 2 minute 'count up the number of failed saves and remove models' procedure into a half-hour long monotonous waste of time?  Require every roll to be made individually!  Yay?

 

It's easy and fast.

It is not convoluted and does not take forever.

 

You grab 6 dice, roll LoS, pick the model to receive the wound, roll the save (same die that was the LoS roll), apply the wound

For the scant few times it comes up it takes no time at all.

It's not even close to 2 minutes become 30, at worst 2 become 4 but it never gets that bad.

[Squirrelloid]

Because guys you are w

 

 

It's worse than that, because the actual procedure is:

 

While there are wounds in the pool (

While a character is the closest model to the firing unit (

-Take a LoS test

--Pass: determine closest model

---Roll AS for that model

--Fail: roll AS for character

))

 

So you have to roll 1 LoS, then resolve that wound, then roll another LoS, then resolve that wound.  How do you turn what should be a 2 minute 'count up the number of failed saves and remove models' procedure into a half-hour long monotonous waste of time?  Require every roll to be made individually!  Yay?

 

It's easy and fast.

It is not convoluted and does not take forever.

 

You grab 6 dice, roll LoS, pick the model to receive the wound, roll the save (same die that was the LoS roll), apply the wound

For the scant few times it comes up it takes no time at all.

It's not even close to 2 minutes become 30, at worst 2 become 4 but it never gets that bad.

 

You've never had to roll for 30+ wounds before, have you?  (On a squad of TEQ with multiple characters, ug).

[nurglez]

Personally I agree that rolling them 1 at a time, while exactly what GW want's, is counter productive to time spent gaming, hence batch rolling. I do however agree that you should roll the look out sir before the armour save, as it's just better done that way.

 

We've also established the proper way, and a few house rule ways for speeding it up without changing the odds, maybe we should calm the discussion down before we resort to name calling?

[Magpie]

You've never had to roll for 30+ wounds before, have you?  (On a squad of TEQ with multiple characters, ug).

 

But that doesn't happen very often does it.

[Squirrelloid]

 

You've never had to roll for 30+ wounds before, have you?  (On a squad of TEQ with multiple characters, ug).

 

But that doesn't happen very often does it.

 

Actually, it happens all teh time when you use TEQ, because the best way to kill them is throw enough fire at them so they fail saves. 

[Magpie]

Looks like you're up for a fair bit of die rolling then.

[Grey Mage]

 

Because guys you are w

 

 

It's worse than that, because the actual procedure is:

 

While there are wounds in the pool (

While a character is the closest model to the firing unit (

-Take a LoS test

--Pass: determine closest model

---Roll AS for that model

--Fail: roll AS for character

))

 

So you have to roll 1 LoS, then resolve that wound, then roll another LoS, then resolve that wound.  How do you turn what should be a 2 minute 'count up the number of failed saves and remove models' procedure into a half-hour long monotonous waste of time?  Require every roll to be made individually!  Yay?

 

It's easy and fast.

It is not convoluted and does not take forever.

 

You grab 6 dice, roll LoS, pick the model to receive the wound, roll the save (same die that was the LoS roll), apply the wound

For the scant few times it comes up it takes no time at all.

It's not even close to 2 minutes become 30, at worst 2 become 4 but it never gets that bad.

 

You've never had to roll for 30+ wounds before, have you?  (On a squad of TEQ with multiple characters, ug).

I have, it took less than five minutes, certainly not 30.

 

Maybe its my cooks hands?

 

So, is there any further rules debate going on here gents or are we just deciding wether its RAW to like the new rules or not? Because liking the rules isnt a requirement, just playing by the ones you and your opponent agree to ;)