The Crimson Hunters

[kdruthless]

The Crimson Hunters are a chapter unaware of their lineage. The name of their Primarch and the date of their founding are lost even to them. perhaps it is because of this that they are considered to be among the most approachable and gentile of the space marine chapters. It could also be that this is why the chapter supports so many more in their campaigns, and has never made any world its home.

Whilst they are broadly a codex-adherent chapter, each company is an autonomous unit within the overall chapter. thus, each company maintains its own veterans, tactical, assault and devastator marines, scouts and armour. In addition, each company is responsible for its own recruitment and maintenance, and each maintain smaller versions of the Librarius, Reclusiam and Armoury. Only the Chapter master, currently Nero Vengetorix, can call two or more companies together.

Despite this divergence form the codex, the Crimson Hunters maintain excellent ties with other chapters of the space marines, and thanks in no small part to their mobility and autonomy, have rendered help to a large number of them. The Blood Angels, Sons of Orar, Storm Lords, Crimson Fists, and Guardians of the Covenant all have reason to thank the intervention of the Crimson hunters.

They are Planetstrike and anti-armour specialists almost without parallel. During the recent liberation of Alteris V, their unerringly accurate melta strikes and thunder hammer assaults became a source of profound terror for the traitors of that world.

Partly because of that campaign, successfully concluded in partnership with the Ultramarines, Scout Sgt. Telion has been temporarily seconded to the Crimson Hunters' 3rd company to assist with their training. However, his time with the chapter may be longer than he thought as Captain Galen, commander of the 3d company, has recently received a summons to an unnamed planet towards the galactic southeast, there to rendezvous with the fifth, seventh and tenth companies under the overall command of the Chapter Master.

Their mission there has not been revealed to them, but rumours persist that Inquisitor Gideon Ravenor has called in an old debt owed to him by the chapter...

This is my first serious attempt at writing a history for a chapter beyond a couple of buzzwords (veteran, ironclad, etc), so please be nice guys. I've tried to avoid namedropping, but I do like Ravenor a lot, may convert him one of these days. Also think its reasonable to include Telion in there as he is stated to travel between chapters a fair bit

My collection for these fellow currently stands at, er, nothing really. Will update when I eventually get around to making something . The colour scheme that I have in mind is the one displayed in my avatar

[kdruthless]

A slightly better look at my prospective livery. The Pink bits are red. Honestly

 

[CantonWC]

Hello

 

I will try to be polite.

 

 

I've tried to avoid namedropping

 

My main problem with this is that you've name dropped everywhere. Several prominent 2nd Founding Chapters have reason to think they're amazing. Torias Telion, who according to certain disreputable sources can turn out scouts on par with centuries old Captains, is travelling with your Chapter. And maybe it would be more understandable if it were a one off training thing, but apparently he's sticking around a little longer because you'll be under the command of Gideon Ravenor.

 

If all of this actually happened, if your Chapter has really ingratiated itself with all these 40k notables, wouldn't they have been written about already?

 

-----

 

So they're pretty nice and approachable, they're some of the best planetstrike and anti-armour specialists, and several prominent people think they're awesome. All in all, a little too much awesome for me.

 

What are you trying to accomplish, anyway? You've told me that all these people apparently think the Crimson Hunters are amazing, but you haven't shown me why they are amazing, or why they deserve such praise. That's what name dropping essentially amounts to. You bring in official characters to say, "wow, these guys are amazing" or "they saved my life, praise the Emperor" as a shorthand and, if I may be completely honest, lazy way to shore up your "street cred." You do not have to do that to make a well-written and interesting Chapter. And you should not.

 

So what do you want, in the words of Octavulg.

 

 

What are you trying to accomplish with your IA? What things do you really want to write about? What do you want to avoid? Is there a theme or idea you really like? Is there some book or movie or character that is influencing this? Is there a particular 'feel' you'd like for your IA? Are there common aspects of Space Marine chapters you don't like? Ones you do like? What do you want to emphasize about your chapter? What kind of people do you want the Marines in your chapter to be? What do you want people's reactions to be when they read your IA?

...

This information is critical to helping people improve what you produce, yet no one ever provides it without prompting (and sometimes not even then). A paragraph on what you're trying to accomplish with your IA can do more to help a critic than the rest of the IA itself. It also can often do a lot to help you focus your ideas. Figure out what you want. Use that information. Then tell people what you wanted.

 

Who are they? And if you could break them down into one sentence, what would that be? Answering the question of who they are is far more important and tends to be far better received than "People think they're amazing because they did such and such."

 

Sorry if that's a little harsh, that's just how things go in the Liber.

[JusticarErictheblue]

I'm struggling along with my own chapter ATM, but lets see if we can help each other. Who do they thinkis their progenitor chapter sure they don't know but they might have clues or suspicions or do have they hunch as do tWhen were they founded, who have they fought and how? Have they lost any wars ? My chapter was heavily bruised, and has around 6 tanks in all, as they're anti armour and planet strike specialistswhat are their tactics? Don't however say they are awesome and the best, I've tried to show my chapter as defeatable while skilled. Homebrewed chapters are never goin to rub shoulders in trams of awe as ultramarines, space wolves and templars, so don't try to make them.

 

The scheme is good, although it makes me think of strawberries.

[kdruthless]

.

[Conn Eremon]

The IA doesn't actually have to have the name-dropping. It honestly does make a lot of people cringe here when they see it. You want to run an Inquisitorial retinue from the Grey Knight Codex as an Ally for your Space Marine force, basing it off of Ravenor? Go for it, sounds awesome. Going to include Sergeant Telion but not as a counts-as, keeping him in his Ultramarine colors? That's dope, most people either play the army or have counts-as characters.

 

But the IA doesn't actually require any of their names be said. "An Inquisitor with close ties to the Chapter calls in an old debt, calling to his side the closest Battle Company. Accompanying this Battle Company was a Scout Sergeant on loan from another Chapter for training purposes. The Crimson Hunters take their debts seriously and they did not have time to return the Scout Sergeant to his own forces."

 

That says basically the exact same thing, still fully allows you to include both characters as is in your force, without dropping their names into the IA and making folk cringe.

[CantonWC]

Hello

 

I wouldn't use the word "terrible" I would just say "needs improvement". Everyone has to start somewhere.

 

In regards to unknown gene-seed, I will very, very grudgingly accept that it can happen. Because it has happened to official GW Chapters. The main reason unknown gene-seed works is due to authorial fiat, "because the author said so," not because it actually makes sense.

 

I found a quote from an earlier discussion which pretty much sums up my feelings on unknown gene-seed:

 

 

Second, The quote above is exactly why I asked the question. I must beg to differ with Messor's response. IMO, it goes against established fluff for any space marine chapter to "forget" or "loose track of" something so ingrained in their indoctrination. Gene legacy is such a deeply held element of a chapters identity; from Philosophy and Combat Doctrine, to Traditions and Pride/Honour. To imagine a successor of the Imperial Fists for example, to suddenly, or even gradually loose their "identity" and "gene heritage" is incredulous in the least. (Brother Xiggy)

 

 

In regards to the other points. Do you understand why I objected? You have one line where several of the most ancient and prominent Chapters in the Imperium all take their turns thanking the Crimson Hunters. That's mighty high praise for a Chapter I've never heard of.

 

People frown on dragging in official names and Chapters for two reasons. One, if your Chapter actually did all these things and met all these people, then they would have been mentioned already in official sources. Particularly someone who has been written on as extensively as Ravenor; how come I've never seen the Crimson Hunters in his novels?

 

The other reason is that you really should be able to write your own characters, history, interactions and so on, instead of writing in that one time you saved the Blood Angels and are associates with Telion to try and shore up your credibility.

 

If you use Telion in your games, then fine whatever, what you do on the tabletop is your business. But you need to be aware of when to segregate your lore history from what actually happens on the tabletop, because the two do not perfectly overlap and translate back and forth.

[Conn Eremon]

A lot of 40k doesn't make sense. A lot of it doesn't follow what logic dictates. That shouldn't get in the way of what fluff says is so.

 

While the idea of a Chapter losing knowledge of its progenitor is odd and makes little sense considering how much devotion Chapters one and all place on their heritage, it is established as happening. But not only that, fluff suggests (and it looks like Forgeworld is the primary culprit here, in case your version of canon excludes them or puts them low in the hierarchy) that it is downright common. Certainly, most Chapters in fluff, regardless of source, either provide the progenitor or leave it unsaid (which isn't the same thing as saying it is unknown) but there have been a lot of major, important Chapters out there who do list that information as unknown. This is 40k, so there are a trillion and one ways such information can be lost while remaining true to the setting, but I do agree it doesn't make sense that there are so many and that they can be the big players. But the fluff says it happens regardless and often. Doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to us, as it apparently does in the setting.

[Octavulg]

Do not confuse "the Chapter doesn't know" with "the Imperium doesn't know". There is a very large difference.

 

Forge World loves to do the former, because they're often terrible authors. But the latter is perfectly fine (IMO).

[Conn Eremon]

But regardless of the quality of the writers, what they write becomes established in the fluff. The author(s) qualities do not invalidate or validate the fluff written, except outside of people's own personal version of the fluff which shouldn't be used as a serious criteria on other's works. To be clear, I'm not saying anyone is making that argument, just clarifying that regardless of personal opinions on how those concepts are handled, they are as valid a choice of the author as any other. Not liking it is one thing, saying it's not canon or something along those lines is another. And again, not pointing fingers.. Whatever people's opinion on Mat Ward, Draigo still wrote the name of his fallen Master on Mortarion's immortal heart. I agree with you on which of those types of unknowns is preferable but both are valid options for anyone making a DIY.

[CantonWC]

 

A lot of 40k doesn't make sense. A lot of it doesn't follow what logic dictates. That shouldn't get in the way of what fluff says is so. 

 

While the idea of a Chapter losing knowledge of its progenitor is odd and makes little sense considering how much devotion Chapters one and all place on their heritage, it is established as happening. But not only that, fluff suggests (and it looks like Forgeworld is the primary culprit here, in case your version of canon excludes them or puts them low in the hierarchy) that it is downright common. Certainly, most Chapters in fluff, regardless of source, either provide the progenitor or leave it unsaid (which isn't the same thing as saying it is unknown) but there have been a lot of major, important Chapters out there who do list that information as unknown. This is 40k, so there are a trillion and one ways such information can be lost while remaining true to the setting, but I do agree it doesn't make sense that there are so many and that they can be the big players. But the fluff says it happens regardless and often. Doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to us, as it apparently does in the setting.

 

 

Well, y'know, that's an answer I cannot really accept. Everyone's got to find those parts of the 40k franchise that makes the most sense to them and construct their personal canon from that; that's partly what I've been trying to do with my own DIY project (and it will get written, I promise you).

 

Heck, even within the Badab War books they talk about genetic markers in reference to the Mantis Warriors and Carcharodons, but the Red Scorpions who are also participants in the conflict are described as having completely unidentifiable gene-seed. It's a contradiction that they can't even reconcile within the same series.

 

And, even if the lore says it is so, we should try to improve our own projects beyond the lore, yes? Just because it is done in the lore doesn't mean we ought to do it. There is plenty of stuff in the lore that I don't agree with, that I reject. We should try and steer clear of the stuff that would induce bad habits and bad writing. That's what I'm trying to do; create something that can fit into the greater shared world, but also satisfies my expectations and perceptions of what 40k should be.

[Conn Eremon]

It is a contradiction but it is one they point out within the text, which implies to me that it was a desired contradiction.

 

Ack, I don't want to pull this thing off the DIY. My intention was only to clarify that although a Chapter with unknown gene-seed is a social faux pas around here, it is something supported in the fluff and therefore legitimate if the author does want to continue with that. It may be a bad habit and an example of bad writing but not everybody cares about that.

 

But again, if the author wants to continue with that. I'm definitely not saying such a thing shouldn't be brought up, because I'm sure most will want to hear that and change their DIYs accordingly.

[WolfPriestBob]

Hello Kdruthless,

 

I think you have done what all good writers do, and that is to start. I know that sounds trite, but I don't want all the constructive input you have been receiving to deter you from perfecting your writing (maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't.., I just want to help a little by giving you a positive nudge :)). That being said, I also encourage you to REALLY sit down and consider the key elements of your first draft. In particular, I would highly encourage you to ponder the "unknown" elements of your chapter. This is such an over-used literary hook, that REALLY cripples your ability (as an author) to build the flavor and charm your chapter will need to set it apart.  Additionally, I humbly point out to you that it is self-defeating for an author to TELL his/her readers that his/her chapter is "Worthy", you must let your reader come to that conclusion on their own (but what you can and must do, is take the reader on a journey that brings them to that conclusion, without them even being aware :) PLEASE consider this; It is NOT the escalation of stature (such as comparing your chapter to the chapters of legend) that compels a reader to remember and appreciate your chapter. Instead, it is all the little things; the whos, whats, hows, wheres and whys that you use to craft the most memorable and compelling articles. Sometimes, a flaw, or struggle that's destined to fail can do more to endear your chapter to a reader than any amount of victories, chest bumping or bravado will ever accomplish.

[kdruthless]

Could anyone suggest a decent flaw for the Crimson Hunters then? I tried to make them seem like nomads who don't really have a home, but perhaps that isn't good enough. 

 

As for the geneseed, I think i'd better make them an Ultramarines successor chapter. I'd really like Telion in there as himself, and it only really makes sense for him to be in with them under those circumstances.

 

And scratch their glorious history fighting alongside second founding chapters too, although I'd like to keep the connection with the Ultramarines for the above reason. Maybe they responded to a request for aid from an Ultramarine force or something and was granted Telion for a while as a reward.

 

Mentioning Ravenor was also a bit of a mistake, I suppose. I did like the passage mentioned by Cormac Airt earlier which explained the presence of both him and Telion. Mind if I shamelessly steal it for my next draft of the history? :)

[JusticarErictheblue]

A flaw, could be after say 300 years old one in ten marines suffer from random organ failures, it's one I am considering.

[Leonaides]

Very few marines ever actually make it to that age anyway... That would be more like saying 1 in 10 real-life 90year olds have a heart condition...

[JusticarErictheblue]

Most of a chapters veterans are about 200-300 aren't they?

[Leonaides]

Assuming a marine in a non-Blood Angel line then 3-400 is about the upper age limit of what might generally be accepted.

 

There are several marines of 'captain-equivalent' rank at about 100-150 yrs old, so it follows that plenty of marines who will never be on the command track will have achieved Veteran status by then unless they have been killed or put onto a specialist track already. Marines CAN live for 3 to 500 years, but that doesnt mean that there will be very many who do. Modern humans CAN live to 100 to 115 years old, but the likelihood is that the majority will die before 95. If you want random organ failiure that takes effect at great age, have it as a cumulative build-up effect where there are always problems, but the corrective action sto allow them to function durign the bulk of their fighting careers mean that they slowly have to take larger doses of whatever chemical, and slowly those doses have a bad side-effect that damages the marine elsewhere.

 

For example (and really not thought out very well) - hyperactive muscle-building organ would tear the marines body apart from itself, so they take an inhibitor, but that inhibitor slowly damages their nervous system and brain-stem, eventually leading to loss of motor control (and thus ability to fight or function in a neuro-link) so the ones who have lived longest become more desparate to die in combat due to the other alternative - permanent vegetative state/locked-in syndrome type immobility.

 

Hope that helps and good luck!

[kdruthless]

Oookay, fluff Mark II:

 

 

An Ultramarines successor chapter believed by the Imperium to have been created in the twenty-second founding od space marine chapters, the Crimson Hunters are among the most active of Space Marine chapters: constantly crusading against the imperium's enemies. Scattered records show that the chapter once had a fortress-monastery on the low-technology and feudally-ruled world of Alraxi IX, but they are now entirely spacebourne. Whether this change was due to choice or compulsion is, however, not recorded.

 

What is known, however, is that the Crimson Hunters do not rest for a moment in the pursuit of enemies. Each company (with the exception of the Devastator, Assault, and Scout companies) is an autonomous unit within the overall chapter. New recruits must serve in separate companies as a scout, a devastator and as an assault marine before they are granted the title of tactical marine. Unusually at this stage, each marine is given free choice as to what company they will join, a practice said to extend back to the rituals of their homeworld where a knight-aspirant could decide which grand order they would dedicate their lives to. Because of this practice, each company of the chapter has its own string of victories and honor, and their autonomy is rarely challenged. Only the Chapter master, currently Nero Vengetorix, can call two or more companies together. However, this manner of recruitment and training is slow and costly, and has resulted in the fourth and seventh companies being rendered inactive for nearly fifty years as they restore their forces. Worse still for the chapter's numbers, many marines express a wish to serve in the deathwatch before assuming their role as tactical marines, a request which is usually granted. Perhaps to speed this process, Chapter Master Vengetorix has petitioned Lord Macragge for the services of Scout Sgt. Telion to assist with scout training.

 

The Crimson Hunters are merciless in war, striking their foes repeatedly until they shatter and are destroyed utterly. They are unashamed pragmatists, carefully studying the enemy to discover a weak spot before applying overwhelming force to it. The nature of that force is dependant upon both the company fighting and the enemy being fought: On Kelo V scout snipers of the X company carefully eliminated the ethereal leader of the invading Tau forces, breaking their morale, on Kora II mass fusillades of melta fire from the III company utterly destroyed the crude Ork vehicles charging towards them, and on Telax heavy bolters and concealed traps were used by Vengetorix to narrowly defeat the beserkers of the World Eaters.

 

Owing to their scattered nature, the Crimson Hunters are oftentimes amongst the first to respond to calls for aid. Many invasions have been turned back, and many lives saved thanks to their intervention at the early stages of a campaign. And yet, the Crimson Hunters refuse any thanks or honour for their efforts: they deliberately shun the thanks of imperial governors and lords, and have refused any and all titles and laurels; offering only the words "we may not" in reply.

 

Rumours abound that the Crimson Hunters fight so fiercely and selflessly because of some past transgression. Certainly, they seek out chances to ally with the inquisition as often as they do other forces. Indeed, chapter master Vengetorix has called together the III and V companies to embark upon a mission to assist an Ordos Xenos inquisitor with a problem for which the Crimson Hunters are ideally suited...

 

 

I hope that that is an improvement on the first attempt.