Destroyers question

[Dosjetka]

Hello folks,

 

Seeing as I'm getting myself a unit of Destroyers and I would like to paint them up in the colours of one of the Legions present during the Siege of Terra, which Legion of the three there would most likely have Destroyers among their ranks?

 

Thanks for looking! :)

[depthcharge12]

Well if you were doing the Traitors, then by all means choose the World Eaters as they were known to maintain a large Destroyer cadre and would care very little about the future structural integrity of Terra.

[hisdudeness]

Death Guard hands down. 

[spikyjames]

Gotta second the shout for World Eaters, got some ill be doing my self as well.

[DuskRaider]

_{I believe OP means Loyalists? Not sure... in any case, I'd say most likely Imperial Fists if Loyalists, and Death Guard if Traitor, but then again by that time they'd be Nurglefied and you don't know if they'll still even be an option.}

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Nurgle destroyers seem even more fitting somehow ;)

[Kol Saresk]

Hello folks,

 

Seeing as I'm getting myself a unit of Destroyers and I would like to paint them up in the colours of one of the Legions present during the Siege of Terra, which Legion of the three there would most likely have Destroyers among their ranks?

 

Thanks for looking! :)

Hmm, well the only side I know of that had three Legions was the Loyalist side. Out of those three, I imagine it would be the Imperial Fists. Out of the three they seem like the most probable to salt the earth with the death of their enemies. That and if they posion the ground outside the walls, they now have a beautifully constructed environmental hazard that can work against at least some of their enemies.

[Sevatar]

I agree. The Imperial Fists would want to have a contaminated ground outside the walls.

[Dosjetka]

Woops, yeah, I meant Loyalist Legions :blush:

 

Thanks for the replies all! I had the impression that it would be the Fists, 'specially at that stage of the conflict, but I wanted to see if others thought the maybe the BA's of the WS's fit the bill more and for what reason :)

[DuskRaider]

Blood Angels would most likely have an aversion to using rad weapons, that whole Baal thing. White Scars would probably find something like that detrimental to their preferred tactics. Honestly though, every Legion had Destroyers in some capacity, they had the equipment to wage war on any scale or tactic, including nuclear and biochemical.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

If your getting a unit of destroyers to paint up can I recommend making a vow to the etl? Wonderful way of making sure you get them finished. Plus we need extra recruits

[blackoption]

I agree with the earlier comments.  But I actually think the White Scars would also have a destroyer contingent.  If the White Scars are indeed based on Mongol Warriors, then they would understand the value of scorched earth fighting against the enemy.  Plus, in Fear to Tread it is mentioned that the White Scars were the legion that finally purged the Nephilim (sp?) in its entirety.

 

As for the Blood Angels.... I see them using destroyers about as much as I see the Emperor's Children using them.

[Wade Garrett]

I'll put in another vote for the White Scars. As one of the "brutal" Legions (Space Wolves, Night Lords, World Eaters, etc.)

 

Also, their main tactic is vicious hit and run attacks, get in, do some damage, bail out..a unit of jet pack Marines with chemical and rad weapons would seem to fit that like a hand in a glove.

[hisdudeness]

Of the loyal legions, I would have to say Imperial Fists.  A pure masterful tactician would not discount a tactic or equipment because of some stigma attached to it (if there even was a stigma).  Everything would have it's place in the art of war, even Rad/Phosphex weapons.

[SillyDreadnought]

All of them. It's the defense of Terra. It's THE final line. No weapon is taboo, no doctrine or skill forbidden. It's the ultimate battle. Why would you, if you were Dorn, the Khan or Sanguinus, NOT want to use every weapon available to you in such a situation?

[Deus de Mortalis]

I really don't think Dorn would do that. In Nemesis, he was highly against Malcador sending out assassins against Horus, and when he was out on the walls of the imperial palace, he felt awful about it becoming a place of war. Then when Dorn and the fists chased down the Iron Warriors, he was ready for an honorable fight against the traitors, even after all they had done. The Iron Warriors pulled out all the stops, but Dorn didn't.

 

If I had to chose a loyalist legion who would use them it would be the White Scars. They were the barbarians.

[hisdudeness]

I believe you are wrong.  You are applying present day views of types of weapons.  I don't believe the issue with the life-eater virus was so much that it was a bio-weapon, but that is was a weapon of scale that can end worlds.  Aren't the ship scale weapons nuclear?  If marines were iffy about using bio-weapons they would also be iffy about using nukes. 

[blackoption]

Not necessarily Dudeness...

 

It is explicitly stated that destroyers are using forbidden rad weaponry by the emperor's own decree.  It is also stated that many legions view the use of such permanently damaging weapons as dishonorable. These weapons were only (nominally) used on worlds that were already uninhabitable, since the damage they did scarred the landscape.

 

Even the life eater virus (and probably other exterminatus grade weaponry) with out proper authorization from a primarch level authority. In case of the life eater virus itself, only the emperor and the warmaster could sanction such weapons. Even still, it is known that some legions (ala Ultramarines, but probably salamanders and some of the more honor bound legions) preferred to risk their own forces more rather then destroy the entire infrastructure of the world they were conqueoring, thus proper use of planetary scale weaponry would have been a serious concern for a few of the legions.

 

Back to the OP's original question: Of the Loyalist legions that were at Terra, it is the White Scars who had the most brutal of the reputation and the Blood Angels who had the most honorable. While it might be a stretch, it is known that the White Scars are based of the Mongol hordes.  Since the White Scar Legion has such little information about them, many people have tried extrapolating how the Mongol warriors might have acted with such weaponry. Since the Mongol's were more then willing to burn down entire villages and towns and cities of people who opposed them, it is fairly easy for many people to believe that the white scars may have been more willing to use weaponry that the more "honorbound" legions would find distasteful.

[No Foes Remain]

It was mentioned in Betrayal, that the White Scars were avid users of Destroyers alongside the Iron Warriors and Death Guard.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

If you're planning on playing battle of terra at any point I'd say any of the loyalist legions would be fine. After all, we're talking the defence of the Palace.

 

Yes the Blood Angels or Fists might not be happy about using these weapons, but to not use them at the cost of the Palace falling? I think not. Yes Dorn was not happy about turning the Palace into a fortress, but he did it out of necessity and knew it was the only way.

 

Likewise in Fear to Tread, the Blood Angels directly broke the Edict of Nikea and used Psykers, out of necessity, they knew there was no other way.

[hisdudeness]

Not necessarily Dudeness...

 

It is explicitly stated that destroyers are using forbidden rad weaponry by the emperor's own decree.  It is also stated that many legions view the use of such permanently damaging weapons as dishonorable. These weapons were only (nominally) used on worlds that were already uninhabitable, since the damage they did scarred the landscape.

 

Even the life eater virus (and probably other exterminatus grade weaponry) with out proper authorization from a primarch level authority. In case of the life eater virus itself, only the emperor and the warmaster could sanction such weapons. Even still, it is known that some legions (ala Ultramarines, but probably salamanders and some of the more honor bound legions) preferred to risk their own forces more rather then destroy the entire infrastructure of the world they were conqueoring, thus proper use of planetary scale weaponry would have been a serious concern for a few of the legions.

 

Back to the OP's original question: Of the Loyalist legions that were at Terra, it is the White Scars who had the most brutal of the reputation and the Blood Angels who had the most honorable. While it might be a stretch, it is known that the White Scars are based of the Mongol hordes.  Since the White Scar Legion has such little information about them, many people have tried extrapolating how the Mongol warriors might have acted with such weaponry. Since the Mongol's were more then willing to burn down entire villages and towns and cities of people who opposed them, it is fairly easy for many people to believe that the white scars may have been more willing to use weaponry that the more "honorbound" legions would find distasteful.

 

While I see what you are getting at, I still believe you are looking at this through bias views. 

 

If Rad weapons are so 'forbidden' why is there an entire unit based on their use?  I believe you hit the nail with your 'dishonorable' comment; it's is not the destructive capabilities of the weapon that is the barrier, but the question of how each Legion's Marines are taught to fight wars and justify the steps taken in the application of war.

 

The reality of war is that there is always a point where success (read: survival in your way of life) throws things like honor out the window.  That's the job of a soldier (today and in 30/40k), to do the things so others don't need to do them to preserve the way of live of those you fight for.  Broken down, things like 'honor' are simply coping mechanisms for the things they see and do in the name of a believe.  For Marines, I see the near brain washing and genetic coding of a legion as the ultimate coping mechanism for a race of humans whose entire life is one war after another.  Even though they are super human...they are still human and as the BL books show us they are just as susceptible to the mental frailties of the human mind...it's just takes centuries for the Marine mind to succumb.

 

 

As to which Legion, finding a tactic/weapon distasteful/dishonorable would not preclude a Legion from using it.  And as Dorn is one of (if not best) tactician in the universe I don't see him limiting the use of those weapons...in fact I would not see him limited to the use of extermnius on terra to stop chaos.  There are enough Marines and humans off planet to ensure the survival of man.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Exactly Hisdudeness.

 

Ask someone if they could ever murder another human being in cold blood, the'yre gonna say no ( hopefully ;) )

 

Now ask them if they would kill someone in cold blood if it meant saving the lives of others, still no?

 

Now ask them if they would kill someone in cold blood if it meant saving their nearest and dearest, their family, or themselves. Would they do it? Yes would most likely be the answer. Self preservation. When push comes to shove, you might hate yourself for doing it, but your gonna do it to ensure your survival.

 

It's no different really, knowing what's coming and not doing your utmost to ensure survival? Whatever the cost. The defense of terra means everything, even the BA would use them if needed.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually self-preservation would be why more than a few people would say to saving someone else even if it was a dear loved one or a valued friend. When it comes down to it, some people only truly ever love themselves. Self-preservation is after all, the preservation of one's self, not one's self and company. Humans are not pack animals. True, we are not entirely solitary individuals either. And therein is where the problem lays. Each person has a different breaking point and there are some who will run across the sun if it meant saving someone else and there are orpthers who would run across the sun if it meant saving only themselves.

[blackoption]

While I see what you are getting at, I still believe you are looking at this through bias views. 

 

If Rad weapons are so 'forbidden' why is there an entire unit based on their use?  I believe you hit the nail with your 'dishonorable' comment; it's is not the destructive capabilities of the weapon that is the barrier, but the question of how each Legion's Marines are taught to fight wars and justify the steps taken in the application of war.

 

The reality of war is that there is always a point where success (read: survival in your way of life) throws things like honor out the window.  That's the job of a soldier (today and in 30/40k), to do the things so others don't need to do them to preserve the way of live of those you fight for.  Broken down, things like 'honor' are simply coping mechanisms for the things they see and do in the name of a believe.  For Marines, I see the near brain washing and genetic coding of a legion as the ultimate coping mechanism for a race of humans whose entire life is one war after another.  Even though they are super human...they are still human and as the BL books show us they are just as susceptible to the mental frailties of the human mind...it's just takes centuries for the Marine mind to succumb.

 

 

As to which Legion, finding a tactic/weapon distasteful/dishonorable would not preclude a Legion from using it.  And as Dorn is one of (if not best) tactician in the universe I don't see him limiting the use of those weapons...in fact I would not see him limited to the use of extermnius on terra to stop chaos.  There are enough Marines and humans off planet to ensure the survival of man.

 

The Betrayal book states that "... Destroyer cadres have license to use in the forces of the Imperium by the Emperor's Command. Rad-weapons, bio-alchemimunitions and crawlburning horror of Phospex are amongst their aresnel-- weapons which irrevocably taint the ground" (HH Betrayal pg 195). It also stated that normally these weapons are considered forbidden. In essense, these are specialized units which only have that remit. Thus, if you have to use such weapons, it is these soldiers who are authorized and trained to do so.

 

I also strongly disagree with you about the nature of soldiers and honor in combat.  Like you, I have served in the armed forces of my country (and still currently do).  But that is a conversation for another time.  I would like to point out that I never said Dorn would not use Destroyer cadres (though I believe it would rankle his pride and sense of honor to do so, especially after how has been written to lament the work he has done in fortifying the Imperial Palace.)  It is my belief that the White Scars are the most likely of the three legions defending the palace to use Destroyer grade weaponry.

[hisdudeness]

Exactly Hisdudeness.

Ask someone if they could ever murder another human being in cold blood, the'yre gonna say no ( hopefully )

Now ask them if they would kill someone in cold blood if it meant saving the lives of others, still no?

Now ask them if they would kill someone in cold blood if it meant saving their nearest and dearest, their family, or themselves. Would they do it? Yes would most likely be the answer. Self preservation. When push comes to shove, you might hate yourself for doing it, but your gonna do it to ensure your survival.

It's no different really, knowing what's coming and not doing your utmost to ensure survival? Whatever the cost. The defense of terra means everything, even the BA would use them if needed.

Actually self-preservation would be why more than a few people would say to saving someone else even if it was a dear loved one or a valued friend. When it comes down to it, some people only truly ever love themselves. Self-preservation is after all, the preservation of one's self, not one's self and company. Humans are not pack animals. True, we are not entirely solitary individuals either. And therein is where the problem lays. Each person has a different breaking point and there are some who will run across the sun if it meant saving someone else and there are orpthers who would run across the sun if it meant saving only themselves.

Here's the thing about asking these questions...they don't know how they would react. (And mind you this from the view of a combat vet with 8 yrs in the Army and 40+ month with boots on the ground.) One can say they would do this or that, but when the time comes to 'pull the trigger' (in this sense, cause grievous harm to another human) one just doesn't know.

Now a days the military prepares soldiers (the combat arms part) for taking a human life by muscle memory, to the point where 'pulling the trigger' is not even thought of as an action. It is a reaction to an external stimulus. By the time one has been in a combat field for 2-3 years, one doesn't even think about the trigger pull. The target has been de-humanized to the point that it's elimination is a step in a battle drill. Additionally, the mind is focused on 10-15 other things, 20-30+ if you are a squad leader. Heck...my second combat mission, I for the life of me cannot remember details from the time our bird lifted off to the time we repelled and boots hit the ground. But I still remember vividly that I was tracking 2 radio freqs, 10 troops, 3 other birds in my chalk, a GPS, mission goals, and actions from LZ. I honestly don't remember the first time I pulled the trigger and it wasn't until after mission that the reality hit. At that point I had to come to terms with my actions, I had to justify them and learn to cope with them.

Now multiply this muscle memory and copping process a hundred fold for a Space Marine. Multiply the items they have to track. More importantly, multiply the level of mental training they go through. I imagine a Marine doesn't have to justify their actions, because they know of no other action to take in the beginning. It is not until they see a larger picture and have a better understanding of the scope of war that we see the things in the BL books. Where the characters begin questioning actions...the newly minted line Marine doesn't have time for those thoughts.

Apply these ideas to the question, I believe the largest difference between the Legions is how 'upper management' justifies the actions they preform in the name of the Emperor. I firmly believe each and every Legion could justify the use of Rad/Bio weapons...the difference is how often would they justify their use and what would it take to need justification. Death Guard would rarely have cause to justify Rad weapons, while Ultras and Angels might need a higher threshold to justify them.

Off the philosophical mind-set, I think bright yellow armor smudged black/brown would look hella awesome.