Destroyers question

[Kol Saresk]

Fair enough

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Fair enough

 

A man of many words ;)

 

I too actually would love to see someone paint up a Fists destroyer squad, I think that'd look really good

[daveNYC]

At the siege of the Imperial Palace I'd say that any legion would be using whatever weapon was most useful for the situation.  It's the final battle and losing means death for everything.  Additionally, by the time Terra rolls around, the traitor legions have been heavily corrupted, so any lingering feelings of brotherhood will have been tossed right out the window.

[blackoption]

But Terra is not an open battle field.  It is essentially one giant capital city.  To unleash such weapons would to also be unleashing weapons on one's own population: one's own loyal citizenry.  Warfare is more than just winning the battle time now.  A pyrrhic victory where the Loyalist win, but the Throne world is also reduced to ash and permanently and irrevocably tainted is something Dorn would have considered to be just as a damning failure as losing Terra and the Palace to Horus.  This is the reason why most commanders (including ones I have served under in Iraq) would balk at such excessive use of force.  What good is winning when the item you fight for is turned into something unusable and loses any and all value? Dorn is considered the  premier master of Defense for the Imperium, he would understand that.

 

Again, i am not saying that the Imperial fists would not use Destroyer formations at all. I am saying that he would use such weaponry carefully for the sake of his cause.

[hisdudeness]

Yet the empire has no problem putting entire loyal IG units to death for something as simple as even seeing a Grey Knight....

 

Most warfare is more then just winning, but the Siege of Terra is much more.  While the loss of the Throne would be devastating it would not be the end of humanity.  I bet that the idea of the Emperor 'dying' was viewed in the same light if not more so before it actually happened.  Yet the Emperor fell and humanity survived.  Humanity survived the Age of Strife and would survive an age without the Emperor and the Throne. 

 

Any result in which Chaos wins is much worse then even the worst result of humanity winning.  I guess we are saying the same thing just with different views on justification.

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

The Imperium now is not the Imperium then, nor is Terra a squad of Guardsmen. The loss of Terra would mean losing the administrative, symbolic and political centre of power across the entire empire - it's why Horus went there, it's why it needs to be defended, and reducing it to ash and bone would leave the Inperium without a centre. At least if they 'just' do battle in engagements on a planetary scale there will be something left to use afterwards to keep the Imperium running. The Imperial Fists probably did have Destroyers and as they needed every last brother on Terra probably did use them, but I'm prepared to bet that Dorn wasn't happy about it - he probably deployed them in galleries and other 'decorative' areas that wouldn't need to be reused after the war to run the Imperium

[Kol Saresk]

 

Fair enough

 

A man of many words ;)

 

I too actually would love to see someone paint up a Fists destroyer squad, I think that'd look really good

Well hisdudeness is right in that you can't really say "everyone will do this". You can only say "some people will do this or that" based on what you have seen people do. Doesn't mean they will do it, just that out there, someone will do it. I have a less than glamorous opinion of humanity because I have had a less than stellar view of humanity. People who are "nice" and "moral" are the rarity while someone who is willing to put someone above themselves is...... Endangered seems like it would just underestimate the situation. Obviously, I would say you have a better view of Humanity and to be honest I would envy you that. The thing about opinions, true opinions, is that while no one is wrong, no one is right either as each opinion is shaped on personal experiences and no one view can be "the right view".

 

Now, back to Terra. I guess part of me is going that some members of the Imperium would still have some moral fiber that they wouldn't want use the rad-weapons out of concern of collateral damage amongst the civilians or that they just didn't want to "sink to the Traitor's level."

 

The Imperial Fists, I see them being the "realists", the "practical men". They have had to deal with taking a Palace and turning it into a fortress as well as any number of insurrections and minor rebellions from the Crusader Host to any cultists(I believe I recall mention of a Slaaneshi cult in Nemesis) as well as any type of minor warlord who as an axe to grind against the Imperium or thinks "this is his time". So I see very little reason as to why they

 

The Blood Angels, I could see Amit doing it along with some of the other, less "artful" Blood Angels not having a problem but I see the majority of them being the "moral fiber" I spoke of earlier.

 

The White Scars, I have always seen them as a type of "earth shaman" theme going on and so while they struck me as "ruthless" they also struck me as having certain limits as to what they would do to the actual planet, unless the planet was already "contaminated". For example, the trap some White Scars and Iron Hands had set up in that short story with Little Horus. They planned on ambushing Horus. They ambushed him with men and power swords. Not Destroyers, not any kind of bomb, nothing. Heck, if I was willing to die to kill a Primarch, you could bet every single piece of money in sight and mind that I'd be holding a dead man's switch to the biggest, dirtiest(radiation wise) bomb I could smuggle in there while everyone else was out fighting and moving Horus towards me. Moment I see him, just let it all go. If I was a White Scar who was ambushing a Primarch and was willing to die in the process.

 

The other thing is that the White Scars weren't on the walls. This was where their moment as riders shone through and they performed hit and run attacks through the Traitors outside of the walls. If they used rad-weapons, they would have to ride back through any contamination they left behind from the last attack. Now granted, I imagine that they wouldn't attack the same place every time but in a way, that would just spread the radiation even further and allow it to overlap in certain places and make it worse. Granted, IIRC 40K background correctly, Terra has been the ground for at least one nuclear war, I imagine that the ground would be sort of... i can't think of the word I'm looking for. It's like when the soil absorbs so much water that the water stops inking into it. I don't know if irradiated material acts like that when it is exposed to more radiation but I can't imagine the situation getting better.

 

So I mean, that is sort of why it is easy for me to see the Imperial Fists using them and not really the other two Loyalists. Granted, I'd imagine that when push came to shove, Space Marines are trained and conditioned to be willing to do anything to win, even if it means dying. But Terra is one of those "symbols". One of those things that are simply too precious to lose.i

[GhostMalone]

@Kol - I think you mean saturated. I do agree with you about humanity my view is biased I've seen from military points of view and from a civilians point of view, I tried to be a hermit and distance myself from mainstream society and even now hold it in contempt. What a primarch will do morally is subject to a variety of different stimuli, what would you do if a galactic empire was in jeapordy and all you had to do to save it is destroy a single planet. I'm actually surprised that no one has thought of a worst case scenario situation, pretty sure Dorn or the Big E had a "if we're going to lose let's take them all with us" contingency plan

[Spinsanity]

The one chapter, off the 3, which obviously made widespread use of Destroyers has to be the White Scars... Hell, they even named one of their second founding successors after the guys..!

 

Although I don't take this argument really seriously, I think it might have some credence... Throne, how I now wish BL/FW would tackle the post-Heresy/second founding era and give us a better understanding of how each Legon's schism occured...

[Kol Saresk]

Well, since A D-B is somewhat tackling the Legion Wars in the Eye it might be a real possibility. Everyone wants a timeline and it seems like they're finally getting it. I justdon't think they realized that the timeline of 40k is from M31 to M41 and covers an entire galaxy. i'll probably be 70 when they get close to covering every single piece of history that there is a ten thousand year timeline with a galactic setting.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Kol really well put, I love your monologues

[Kol Saresk]

I wasn't attacking anyone though :(

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Apologies, I have edited my comment. It'd be awesome if you did a diatribe though :)

[hisdudeness]

Kol, I agree with you but believe that your reasoning is off...it is hard for me to bring morals into the equation.  Morals are not static and can change quite rapidly. I imagine that the morals of a Marine, much less the common human would be far removed from present standards.  Morals vary greatly across the world today...think how much they can very across an entire galaxy tens of thousands of years in the future.

 

Which is my point, some are saying such and such Legion would not do X because of some fluid belief system.  While at the same time, I bet we can find an instance of every single Legion at some point in history having called Extermious or wiping out an entire race that was no real threat.  We can gather that some were more hesitant (almost all balked at the tactics of the World Eaters) to use such tactics.  The problem I see is even with that higher threshold; when your back is to the wall and this is the battle for the survival of humanity, morals become one of the least things that effect the battle. 

 

I believe we would like to think that our (humanities) greatest heroes would always take the high road, but the reality is that there is no high road in warfare.  The Siege off Terra was it.  If the loyalist lose, humanity would be enslaved by chaos for the foreseeable future.  Would the spirit of humanity be damaged if Terra was wiped out but humanity won...most likely, but they would be around to get over it. 

 

 

Well, since A D-B is somewhat tackling the Legion Wars in the Eye it might be a real possibility. Everyone wants a timeline and it seems like they're finally getting it. I justdon't think they realized that the timeline of 40k is from M31 to M41 and covers an entire galaxy. i'll probably be 70 when they get close to covering every single piece of history that there is a ten thousand year timeline with a galactic setting.

 

I believe this is a necessity.  GW refuses to advance the storyline beyond the current galactic stalemate, so they start writing prequels.  I seem remember a time when GW/FW said they would never address the Heresy in rules form.  And I bet if FW models were cheaper, 30k would over shadow 40k.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

I believe this is a necessity.  GW refuses to advance the storyline beyond the current galactic stalemate, so they start writing prequels.  I seem remember a time when GW/FW said they would never address the Heresy in rules form.  And I bet if FW models were cheaper, 30k would over shadow 40k.

 

I agree, if the models were GW prices I know plenty of mates that would be signing up for it. Look at the rulebook you get for £70, Beautiful

[Kol Saresk]

Shoot, if the prices were GW prices, GW would go out of business I think.

[hisdudeness]

I think that is the worst part, FW is at least double the cost of GW.  But the rules are much better written (almost like they care or something).  When I first bought Betrayal I had to think long and hard before I confirmed the order...I know regret nothing even $400+ in models later. 

 

I would love for the next 40k marine book to mirror Betrayal.  There is so much flexibility in just one book...AND there are at least 3 more coming out!!!  In one book they allow four different list builds on top of a general list.  Additionally, 30k is easily balanced against any 40k list. 

[Kol Saresk]

The irony is that Forgeworld claims they aren't. I wonder if they just think that their 30K games are meant to operate on different point scales or what because they say they aren't balanced, but I have heard many players claim they are and since the lists are a relatively huge success, I just wonder why Forgeworld continues to say what it says.<br /><br />But yes, if possible my goal is that after the release of Massacre, go on one huge, giant splurge. And then wait. Maybe do another splurge a few years down the road. Maybe not.

[hisdudeness]

I've played 20+ games versus 40k lists and the built in limits and changes make up for the largest advantage of squad size.  Even with 40-90 chainaxe jump infantry I am stopped just as often as I own the table.  We have even proxied Primarchs and while hella scary they are not much different than any other Apoc level unit.

 

To get more on topic so as to not get the place shut down...BBL, or anyone else, how do you plan on using the destroyers? I ask because I use them in a certain way but know they have other tactics.

[SillyDreadnought]

I plan on making a squad of Destroyers for my Siege of Terra Blood Angels. Not sure if I should give them Jump Packs and I'm unsure about the Rad-Missiles. I might go for hand flamers/meltas/plasma pistols instead.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Jump packs are definitely the way to go with them, why not the missile launcher? with the suspensor web it's an assault weapon

[hisdudeness]

I put JP and 2 Rad Launchers in my squad, a TH and Phosphex bomb.  They rarely make it in to HtH due to the massive fire power they put out.  Add a Master of Signal and they are BS 5.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

you add a moritat to the destroyers hisdudeness?

[hisdudeness]

I would, but chain fire doesn't allow for assaults after.  I've play tested it and didn't care for the combo- other centurion choices are better IMO. 

 

14 pistol shots, 2 rad missiles, and a phosphex bomb is more then enough in one salvo. 

[DuskRaider]

I personally use 9x Destroyers with Jump Packs, 2 x Hand Flamers, and a Champ with a Lightning Claw. I wanted to do the Missile Launchers, but A) no Missile Launchers on hand at the tome, and B) they're Death Guard so their Flamers are pretty potent.