Anyone actually looking forward to a new codex?

[Grimtooth]

Per my previous post, nevermind about a supplement for 13th Company. The number of pages that the Eye of Terror codex could easily fit into a new SW codex and the standing fluff we have is enough to keep them mysterious and talked about.

 

I do NOT want to see the 13th Company having a Legion of the Damned type entry. That was a disgrace to the LotD and would be a disgrace to the 13th Company. With the new fluff indicating that the 40k universe is getting bum rushed by Chaos and the sighting of daemon primarchs, now would be a good time to reintroduce them. If they popped up during the Eye of Terror campaign, there is no way they are going to miss out on this new incursion of Chaos forces.

[MaveriK]

The only way I could see wulfen packs in the current timeline/fluff with (current Space Wolves) a new SW codex would be if... and I say "IF" Bran Redmaw is in the codex as a special character, or if we are given an option to pick a 13th Company equivalent HQ choice. Either from a FLEASHMAKER (Wolf Priest) or a GREYBEARD Jarl of some sorts (Wolf Lord). Of course if you take any of the 13th Company choices, there are handicaps and limitations in place such as no mech and transport. It's a give and take... nothing more. I'd love to see Rune Priest for the 13th, I miss the psychic power "THE GATE" it was a fun power.

 

Wulfen packs don't currently exist outside 13th company warbands. They are almost myth amongst sky warriors. Only legends from the early days of the great crusades and the heresy itself. So making them standard kinda robs that mystic and allure.... anyway, that's just my thoughts on the subject.

[Grimtooth]

The only way I could see wulfen packs in the current timeline/fluff with (current Space Wolves) a new SW codex would be if... and I say "IF" Bran Redmaw is in the codex as a special character, or if we are given an option to pick a 13th Company equivalent HQ choice. Either from a FLEASHMAKER (Wolf Priest) or a GREYBEARD Jarl of some sorts (Wolf Lord). Of course if you take any of the 13th Company choices, there are handicaps and limitations in place such as no mech and transport. It's a give and take... nothing more. I'd love to see Rune Priest for the 13th, I miss the psychic power "THE GATE" it was a fun power.

 

Wulfen packs don't currently exist outside 13th company warbands. They are almost myth amongst sky warriors. Only legends from the early days of the great crusades and the heresy itself. So making them standard kinda robs that mystic and allure.... anyway, that's just my thoughts on the subject.

Which is why I see the only way that the 13th Company gets reintroduced is if this new Chaos incursion is advancing the storyline, if even a little bit. The sightings of Angron and Moratorion (iirc), seem to indicate that GW is advancing the storyline to include things never before included like the daemon primarchs.

 

It was hard to justify keeping the 13th Company from Eye of Terror in the game due to the campaign ending. They arrived to help deal with the Chaos incursion and pretty much left when it was done, both in terms of fluff and the GW market. If it is GW's intent to make this Chaos incursion a solid foothold in the timeline, that might be the opening for a solid 13th Company foothold in the universe as well.

[MaveriK]

Agreed! I'm sure once Forgeworld starts making the daemon primarchs we will see some subtle progression within the timeline/storyline. *fingers crossed*

[Wulfebane]

Of course, they could just have FW make some wulfen packs/13th co. units as part of their HH 30k agenda and leave tie-ins to current stuff via supplements as Ramses mentioned.

[Orphus]

Back after a looooooooooong hiatus from the hobby and THIS is what I see? Not to demean Roma but we had been waiting so eagerly for the Codex we have now that to ask for a new one so soon is ludicrous. So what if the new rules (that I'm yet to really get into) stagger the usefulness of certain choices? These are Space Wolves and these are their options, either work with it or buy a supplementary force of another army to help.

 

Also, asking for the 5th Edition Codex to be hardcover printed might make sense but I doubt it will happen before Smurfs get their shiny new book.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

@orphus I think the intent of this post was less about wish listing than responding to a rumor that we will possibly be getting one in 2014. I agree that our codex is fine on the whole, but as some of the new rules and options out there make it hard to play wolves in the first place, I do feel that they should put out an faq to at least give some anti flyer options and clear up the confusing ambiguities in their current dex.

[Grey Mage]

Its ok, struggle gives you character, puts hair in the right places and the whole bit.

[Erluin]

A drunk space marine at the helm of an Air Wolf... JMV would be proud.

[skeletoro]

Back after a looooooooooong hiatus from the hobby and THIS is what I see? Not to demean Roma but we had been waiting so eagerly for the Codex we have now that to ask for a new one so soon is ludicrous. So what if the new rules (that I'm yet to really get into) stagger the usefulness of certain choices? These are Space Wolves and these are their options, either work with it or buy a supplementary force of another army to help.

 

Also, asking for the 5th Edition Codex to be hardcover printed might make sense but I doubt it will happen before Smurfs get their shiny new book.

That doesn't make any sense...

[Blacksad]

after a loooooooooooong hiatus from the hobby, the current codex ofc is still absolutely friggin' new. 
Add to that the comment that, while you profess not knowing the new rules yet, you seemingly know perfectly well their impact on our codex only "stagger the usefullness of certain choices", + the suggestion to "just buy a supplementary force of another army to help" leads me to believe you're eighter a salesperson from GW sneaking onto these forums, or a demented long fang, long since taken out of commision due to his deteriorated cranial workings not working anymore.

 

good day sir.

[hendrik]

well, in all honesty, he does have a point i've defended on this forum before. in essense space marines are not the standard AA army. they are there for the blitz, getting in hot, severe the head and the rest of the body will fall. if they are really good the job might even be over before the enemy has time to scramble their pilots and get into the air (flying MC is another thing).

in a "typical" combat situation the AA roll would just get outsourced to
-servitors
-chapter serfs( these mann the guns in our space ships too)
-the imperial guard

-mechanical autonomated constructs (hyperios platforms)

after all, an astartes his presence is too severely missed right into the heavy fighting.

 

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying space marines in general shouldn't have any AA, but in the average battle any commander will likely prefer to spend that 1 extra marine into the fray while the AA could be done by the guardsmen of which he has thousands off at his exposal.

 

The main thing is, if you want decent AA(-defences), you'll need to allow forge world models, which apperently is a problem for certain players, or get a flyer. both of these are available in the form of our excellent allies, the imperial guard.

In one allied detachement one could fit:
-up to 15 sabre heavy weapon platforms (FW)
-up to 3 hydra tanks, or 3 hydra weapon platforms(these come with interceptor)(FW) or 3 skyshield manticore platforms(FW)
-up to 3 vendettas or valkyries.

 

Now off course some players will dislike the idea of outsourcing these things but in all honesty it's more logical fluff wise to have these things outsourced

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Well I don't disagree with your point hendrick, I don't feel that we should have to ally or use the terribly inconsistent forge world to access this stuff. Fluff aside they should have given us something for game balance that is all. We want to attract space wolf players as it is a great army with great fluff and a lot of fun to play but when you tell a new player "In order to be competitive you have to buy into another army too" its gunna make em wonder why not play that other army. And forge world is just as bad cuz you still have to buy another book and then the pricey forge world models and not every where let's you play them. I don't think its whining to ask for the capabilities to handle what was put out there in sixth. I also dont think it requires a new coded but we do require access to something that can handle flyers.

[hendrik]

after playing with the third edition dex for so long i've grown used to not having an answer for everything in our codex. my point is that there are plenty of allowed opportunities to fill in the lack of AA unit in our current codex allowed by either FW publication or the 6th edition rulebook.

Imagine how hard it would be to fight flyer armies without acces to allies, fortifications or FW units....

[Grey Mage]

I think thats a habit of older gamers- understanding that we have things in our book we just dont do well, and thats OK. The allies system and some of the late 5th ed codices spoiled people, and now folk they need to have an easy answer to everything or theyre not doing it right.

 

*shrugs*

[Ghostwolfalpha]

Its hard when you have seen whole packs lost to a single helldrake with little that can be done to stop it. The funny thing is, per the fluff, we should be great at putting one down as we like to kill daemons and big monsters, of which it is both.

 

Flakk missiles on long fangs and scouts, and I would be super happy. We don't need dedicated aa, just the option to have some.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

It's not that I'm lookin for an easy answer, its more that I'm lookin for there to be an option to keep an entire class of units from dropping my bs to 1. I'm not necessarily on board with a codex revamp I just want something to have skyfire. I know we can use adl or allies I just feel like we should have access to flak missiles or the like so I don't feel pushed into fortifications or allies. Honestly all I look for is an faq to clear up some of the abiguities and give us 1 skyfire weapon. I have a hard time believing wolves would never make a weapon to shoot flying stuff. I could care less about boosts to blood claws or the like I think they are fine and in friendly games I play em alot, I just hate to see one (now very common) unit type be an unnecessary pain in the @$$.

[skeletoro]

We don't have to do everything well. But we should have some half-way decent codex answer to fliers. Also, it doesn't make any sense not to have some fliers of our own.

 

I don't think we should necessarily have the BEST answer to fliers, nor do I think we should have the BEST fliers in the game, necessarily. That said, I fail to see how those specific weaknesses are anything but arbitrary for wolves. It's teleporting we're said to have an aversion to, not flying. Presumably we're not marooned on Fenris. But there's a big difference between having flyer/AA capabilities at all, and being the king of the skies. A big difference.

 

Also, I'm less bothered about the flyer thing. It's obviously going to get remedied at some point (presumably with our next codex, but maybe earlier, who knows). We'll get some kind of flyer and some kind of AA. No need to worry about it. I'm more interested in the little tweaks that may or may not happen, which may improve or hurt the codex. E.g. changes to frost weapons, and buffs to weaker units such as wolf scouts, blood claws etc. There are heaps of little tweaks that I'd like to see. Make Iron priests 2 wounds and ICs (or some other change to make them viable). Give other priests the option of riding a thunderwolf (so they can ride in TWC units more easily). Etc, etc.

[skeletoro]

I think thats a habit of older gamers- understanding that we have things in our book we just dont do well, and thats OK. The allies system and some of the late 5th ed codices spoiled people, and now folk they need to have an easy answer to everything or theyre not doing it right.

 

*shrugs*

Was that an embarrassed shrug?

 

Your post seems more than a little self-congratulatory, dude. And I don't see how you can confidently assert that people who can think of changes they'd like to see are A) young or B) motivated by unwarranted feelings of entitlement or a desire for an easy answer.

[Grey Mage]

Im not saying allies need to be the way, Im saying we have in-codex things to offer but people just dont feel theyre strong enough.

 

Divination psychic powers and lots of long fangs- these two units are already a staple in most lists, usem with this combo if you see incoming flyers.

 

Autocannon/TLLC Dreads. Theyll get the job done, and arent subject to being baleflamered. Also pretty good vs the new eldar codex.... and they work out well in a DP army for those of us who prefer such.

 

Massive amounts of missile launchers- we can take them in every slot save HQ, and alot of people do- quantity will get the job done.

 

Positioning. Alot of people are hiding behind aegislines and bunching their men up. Spread out, stay in your rhino, or get so close it has to vector strike instead of flame if needs must- and then rapid fire it with some toasty plasma. Sure, it wont work out as a bloodless victory every time- but bloodless is boring.

I know, helldrakes in particular are devastating. I know that aircraft are our weakness- I still have a hell of a time dealing with 6 robo-croissants- and Im ok with that. The SW codex is incredibly durable, just as the one before it was and by the all father if we are the last codex to be updated in 6th I think itll be ok. Sure, C:CSM has 'drakes, and by the gods is about the only thing they have on it so I say let them enjoy.

[Grey Mage]

I think thats a habit of older gamers- understanding that we have things in our book we just dont do well, and thats OK. The allies system and some of the late 5th ed codices spoiled people, and now folk they need to have an easy answer to everything or theyre not doing it right.

*shrugs*

Was that an embarrassed shrug?

Your post seems more than a little self-congratulatory, dude. And I don't see how you can confidently assert that people who can think of changes they'd like to see are A) young or motivated by unwarranted feelings of entitlement or a desire for an easy answer.

Not in the least- its because in my personal, real life experience those are the only people asking to be able to be good at every thing all the time. That was a shrug of 'I know not everyone will agree with me on this, or falls into those lines, but this is just how I feel about the matter.'

We have one, and only one, real weakness in 6th edition and thats flyers. A weakness that is not unshared by most of the books out there right now- and we still have a darn good chance at fighting any reasonable number- say 2-3- without crippling our operations. So what is there to really complain about? Besides the fact that is the new shiny ad it would make everything easier- though its already far from impossible- why do we neeeed a dedicated AA unit? Need it badly enough that we require a new codex even?

[skeletoro]

I can't answer that question because that's not a position I ascribe to..?

 

There is a vast continuum between not wanting to see a new codex and DEMANDING one. And making everything easier is hardly the only possible reason to want to see a new codex.

[hendrik]

as hendrik sees the debate heat up he quickly downs his ale before rising up., his presence noted by some of his battle brothers

Lets not get in over our heads lads! all me and greymage tried to point out is that there are plenty of viable AA posibilities for the sons of russ. be it through less effective methods such as plasmaspam, missile launcherspam, through allied forces (IG, other astartes chapters, tau, eldar,darkeldar,orks,necrons? heck the ally system if there for a reason. one of the key elements to 40k armies in the previous editions was that they all played very differently,each having it's key weaknesses and strengths. now in 6th edition games workshop has given you a legal option to work around those specific weaknesses!), through forgeworld units or through fortifications.

Yes we should gain acces to flakk missiles fluffwise, but neither have the black templars, nor the bloodangels or normal space marines.

Perhaps we might have some smaller flyers(stormraven, or that other flying monsterosity of a model) of our own,as far as fluff is concerned so far we've been fine using just thunderhawks! and we should note that through forgeworld we do have acces to both the caestus assault ram, the land speeder tempest(atleast i believe we had) and the storm eagle.
sure it's forgeworld but it's got the 40k approved stamp on it. if your opponent refuses you to play with him because you include a forgeworld unit please just point it out that you'd like to field a flyer for yourself once in a while. personally i wouldn't even get a game against such a prick.(seriously, if one of your gaming buddies spams helldrakes yet denies you the use of forgeworld units i think you need new friends....

as for anti helldrake tactics,

get a skyshield landing that that you fill up with ML long fangs + a rune priest and blaze those bastards out of the sky!!!
the problem with heldrakes isn't that they are flyers and that we are unable to handle flyers (heck, you don't see people freaking out when facing a valkyrie), it's their effecient delivery of an AP3 weapon that obliterates entire units in a single roll.
such things are overpowered right?

oh wait, my runepriest with jaws of the world wolf once killed about 500 points of necrons all on his own....

each codex his strengths and weaknesses mates! do the murdemake but don't expose your flanks. the same applies to the tabletop ;)

now how about we settle this debate with some ale instead of more words?

[Ghostwolfalpha]

The problem is in order for SW to deal with a single flyer costing 160pts, you need to invest significant fire power to take it down unless you get lucky. Say one pack of missile fangs and a PA RP, that's 240pts that will most likely spend at least two turns trying to drop that flyer while it does what ever it wants. And that same flyer can kill almost the entire pack in one shooting phase with minimal effort.

 

I am probably just very jaded toward flyers as my most common opponents are IG and CSM.

[skeletoro]

Hendrik, it seems like you're saying "it's not all bad" or something similar.

 

I agree. It's not all bad. We have ways of dealing with flyers, after a fashion, and of course if you include Forge World, we're pretty decent at it (Hyperios).

 

BUT. 

 

I'm looking forward to getting some better AA in our next codex. I think it would be an improvement to the codex (not just an improvement to the wolves)

 

What baffles me is when Orphus and Grey Mage paint those of us who'd be keen to see a new codex as somehow ungrateful little children. Which is completely unfair as far as I can tell. Just because I'd be excited to see what a new codex might bring doesn't mean I'm some kind of emo kid. Hopefully I don't have to explain to anyone why that's a yawning chasm of an inferential leap to make.