Anyone actually looking forward to a new codex?

[Ghostwolfalpha]

Us damn kids and our music. Hehe

[clanfield]

well iv been through a few codex changes with my wolves (read all of em) and I think what grey mage and hendrik allude to is the spirit of the older codex's are less about the new stuff/ toys and more about that quote from the 13th warrior "you can run and hide in a hole if you like but the all father has weighed your death and nothing you can do will change that".

 

or in other word worry not for the toys and spangley bits we are sons of russ we meet our foes face to face ,aa options would be nice but we will slay our foes regardless our mettle is in our will not our codex and we will take names and die trying

 

woof

[hendrik]

don't worry skeletoro, i don't think that was greymage intention at all.

greymage, as an old time member here like me has played with the wolves for a very long time and for years we've been stuck with out out dated 3rd edition codex. When everybody got uber hammernators (with a 3+ save all the time) we were still stuck with out 5+inv combat save only. when others got new toys we just sucked it up and had to find ways to work around them.

the thing is though, we found a way to make our lists work but it took some time and yes, it wasn't always optimised.

Nowhere did we say we don't think flakk missiles would be a welcome addition, we just wanted to point out that

A) there are viable anti flyer tactics in our codex. however they are not that cost efficient as you pointed out. I definetly agree the option for flakk missiles would be a nice addition through a FAQ, especially for those of us facing flyers often.
In all honesty though, unless you're into tournament play, just ask your opponent if he's ok with you using flakk missiles for the cost in codex dark angels, which is the same as 1 fenrisian wolf, due to the resons you've mentioned here. If he's a nice guy that uses a lot of flyers i'm sure he'll understand, I know i've allowed my opponent flakk missiles before,even when he had a stormraven in his own list.

B)we can make our army work against flyers by getting a fortification (2 if you're into 2000 pts games),which should be enough if facing 1-2 flyers. the problem is people often end up playing flyer spam.

C) we can make our army work great against flyers by taking forgeworld units.
if your opponent gives you a hard time if you want to justify them just mention that valkyries were forgeworld only units before....if he still doesn't understand i wouldn't trouble getting a game in against him. In fact, you could just congratulate him with his win, and ask for a second game, now with a bit more narrative, say a fricking storm in which flyers won't take off?

D) allies! THE legal answer to ANYTHING. not just flyers.

I get it that people dislike the idea of having to get a second codex and some new models (which i will admit, is expensive) but the option is out there. i tend to think of this situation as a student needing to go somewhere in foul weather that's dissapointed because his parents( GW) couldn't drop him off there, yet who refuses to take a cab(the nice but more expensive forgeworld) of a bus (allies), or even just hitchhike over there. yup that's right, being stubborn only gets you so far.

and us wolves know plenty of being stubborn!

And now don't take this reference out of context as me calling you some whining kids, I'm a student myself!

the biggest thing this debate boils down to is:

-how stubborn are you in refusing to play with fortifications, forgeworld units, or allies. all of which are 40k approved
-how unthoughtfull is your gaming group. when i play fun > winning always,and if i know my opponents army is weak in a certain way, not due to list building but due to being outdated i'll allow them to use more updated material. they did the same for me when i was still using my third edition codex. in fact, this is even the most interesting option since it a) doesn't cost you and b) you know you have a great gaming group

[skeletoro]

I guess.

 

To risk importing memes from other geeky communities, beware the Stormwind Fallacy, guys. Desiring a (intra- and inter- army) balanced codex does not preclude being "into" the lore/fluff aspects of the game. For example, quotes from 13th Warrior really have no bearing on the points costs of grey hunters. And, I'd argue, having Storm Ravens is similarly fluff-orthogonal.

 

For the record (and given that apparently it matters) I've been around (off and on) since 2nd ed (but only the recent space wolves codex got me remotely interested in wolves).

[Grey Mage]

I guess.

 

To risk importing memes from other geeky communities, beware the Stormwind Fallacy, guys. Desiring a (intra- and inter- army) balanced codex does not preclude being "into" the lore/fluff aspects of the game. For example, quotes from 13th Warrior really have no bearing on the points costs of grey hunters. And, I'd argue, having Storm Ravens is similarly fluff-orthogonal.

 

For the record (and given that apparently it matters) I've been around (off and on) since 2nd ed (but only the recent space wolves codex got me remotely interested in wolves).

It does and it doesnt I suppose- its good to know you speak with some experience, but I figured that out already.

 

Heres the thing: if youre not insisting we neeeeed a new codex for AA options in particular, youre not the persons Im talking about. Still... what else can we say really is a weakness of the codex that could be plugged? Theres a few issues with Bloodclaws, and the frostblades we talked about earlier- hardly enough to warrant a codex update compared to say... Sisters, or BT. So while yes, itd be nice to have an update we really do need it just about dead last, right along with the IG and maybe necrons- though personally I think necrons could use a rebalance more than us.

 

From a total codex perspective we have loads of fluff, and its not likely to get less outlandish with the new characters if its updated. The photo section is fine, and its size is pretty significant and covers what folks need to know pretty well. Financially Id rather not buy another 50 dollar book right now, but to each there own I guess.

[skeletoro]

Yeah, I probably overreacted a bit to Grey Mage there (sorry!)

 

The "I guess" in the previous post was the the 13th Warrior point made by CF.

 

Ultimately, for me it's not so much about what my opponent will or will not allow but rather about the "theorycrafting" behind it all. I'm a bit obsessive like that... I'd ordinarily rather be roasted by flyerspam than houserule our codex, because if I'm houseruling my codex I can't truly win a match :P

[skeletoro]

 

I guess.

 

To risk importing memes from other geeky communities, beware the Stormwind Fallacy, guys. Desiring a (intra- and inter- army) balanced codex does not preclude being "into" the lore/fluff aspects of the game. For example, quotes from 13th Warrior really have no bearing on the points costs of grey hunters. And, I'd argue, having Storm Ravens is similarly fluff-orthogonal.

 

For the record (and given that apparently it matters) I've been around (off and on) since 2nd ed (but only the recent space wolves codex got me remotely interested in wolves).

It does and it doesnt I suppose- its good to know you speak with some experience, but I figured that out already.

 

Heres the thing: if youre not insisting we neeeeed a new codex for AA options in particular, youre not the persons Im talking about. Still... what else can we say really is a weakness of the codex that could be plugged? Theres a few issues with Bloodclaws, and the frostblades we talked about earlier- hardly enough to warrant a codex update compared to say... Sisters, or BT. So while yes, itd be nice to have an update we really do need it just about dead last, right along with the IG and maybe necrons- though personally I think necrons could use a rebalance more than us.

We more or less agree then :P

 

I definitely have more than 3 things in my wishlist, but I'm not crying without them, and only really expect 1/4 - 1/3 of them to be improved upon for the next codex ;)

[Blacksad]

the whole flyer system could use a rebalance. shooting at flyers only hits on a roll of a 6? utter bs. shooting at flyers is at a -1 modifier, sure. only 6's hit, no matter the balistic skill? that's breaking the game.

 

when I play a game, I ask my opponent if he's using flyers. if he is, I don't bother playing. I'm not buying a second army just to be able to play games without being tabled.

[skeletoro]

It is a bit strange, I agree. Orks become awesome vs. flyers!!! And BS4 armies are hit harder than BS3. I can see why they wanted to keep things simple, but the rules for snap shot do have that rather unfortunate consequence to them.

[Grey Mage]

the whole flyer system could use a rebalance. shooting at flyers only hits on a roll of a 6? utter bs. shooting at flyers is at a -1 modifier, sure. only 6's hit, no matter the balistic skill? that's breaking the game.

 

when I play a game, I ask my opponent if he's using flyers. if he is, I don't bother playing. I'm not buying a second army just to be able to play games without being tabled.

What are you fielding that could be tabled by flyers alone?

 

Flyers used to not only be hit only on 6's, but glanced only AND subtracted 12" from your range when you fired about them while being able to literally deepstrike without scattering anywhere they wanted, anywhen they wanted and ignoring all cover that wasnt area terrain or within .5" of your model....

 

Only hitting on 6s isnt that bad.

[hendrik]

well then as a long time player you know what i'm talking about when i speak of adapt and accept ;)

but really, if you have a regular opponent and you know him, just ask the guy if he'd be ok with you using flakk missiles for the pts cost given in codex DA. If he's a nice bloke he'll have no problem with it. likewise allow him to do certain adaptations if you know his army is lacking in a certain area because they don't get a FAQ or the likes.

Key to making 40k fun is having a great gaming group that allows you to do these things. sure being competitive isn't wrong

[skeletoro]

To be honest, I'd just go the Forge World route as I'm perfectly happy to include FW rules in my armies... though that doesn't really change my stance towards our codex because I think it should be relatively balanced whether or not FW is included (as it's fairly common practice to play either with or without). For me, this is somewhat of a theoretical exercise :P

[Blacksad]

 

the whole flyer system could use a rebalance. shooting at flyers only hits on a roll of a 6? utter bs. shooting at flyers is at a -1 modifier, sure. only 6's hit, no matter the balistic skill? that's breaking the game.

 

when I play a game, I ask my opponent if he's using flyers. if he is, I don't bother playing. I'm not buying a second army just to be able to play games without being tabled.

What are you fielding that could be tabled by flyers alone?

 

Flyers used to not only be hit only on 6's, but glanced only AND subtracted 12" from your range when you fired about them while being able to literally deepstrike without scattering anywhere they wanted, anywhen they wanted and ignoring all cover that wasnt area terrain or within .5" of your model....

 

Only hitting on 6s isnt that bad.

are you talking about the time when vehicles had armourvalues in the 20's? As in stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with the now and the here?

 

and I field prettymuch anything that our codex allows. Name me one thing in our codex that can't be killed by flyers.

[Grey Mage]

 

 

the whole flyer system could use a rebalance. shooting at flyers only hits on a roll of a 6? utter bs. shooting at flyers is at a -1 modifier, sure. only 6's hit, no matter the balistic skill? that's breaking the game.

 

when I play a game, I ask my opponent if he's using flyers. if he is, I don't bother playing. I'm not buying a second army just to be able to play games without being tabled.

What are you fielding that could be tabled by flyers alone?

 

Flyers used to not only be hit only on 6's, but glanced only AND subtracted 12" from your range when you fired about them while being able to literally deepstrike without scattering anywhere they wanted, anywhen they wanted and ignoring all cover that wasnt area terrain or within .5" of your model....

 

Only hitting on 6s isnt that bad.

are you talking about the time when vehicles had armourvalues in the 20's? As in stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with the now and the here?

 

and I field prettymuch anything that our codex allows. Name me one thing in our codex that can't be killed by flyers.

No, Im talking about the last seven years of apocalypse. 2nd ed didnt have flyers.

 

And sure, any one thing in the book can be killed by flyers- there are lascannons on some of them afterall- but most flyers only have 1-3 guns, and are limited in what they can kill. The baleflamer is such an attractive option or C:CSM because its one of the few weaponst hat can kill more than 2-3 meq a turn, and with your AA on a landing pad even that is very much in doubt. To be tabled by a flyer list you must be rather elite in your forces, or patentedly ruined in your heavy weapons loadout very quickly. We have ways to keep that from happening, and ALOT of heavy weapons to go around.... so why/how are you being tabled? What have you tried to mitigate it? How many flyers causes the thresshold in your experience? Details man!

[Blacksad]

as seen in my sig:

SW 6th edition

Loss: 2 Win: 3 Draw: 0 Exterminatus: 2

 

which should be editted to win 4, I've run into a necron croisant list with 3 flyers at 1500 pts, got tabled, and a 2 helldrake list at 1500, got tabled. since it was a tournament, I had taken a footslogging list with 3 Grey Hunter Packs, 2 Long Fang packs and a Wolf Guard TDA pack to give all my packs a 2+ save. The games I've won were where the opponent didn't take flyers, or a single helldrake, but I had rhinos / drop pods

 

(exterminatus = opponent is being an arse / cheating, so I scoop)

 

more than 1 flyer per 1000 pts is me -> out.

 

FW isn't allowed in our lgs. got a quad gun wall thingy, but that just isn't SW imo. hiding behind a wall

 

edit: apoc is a different game altogether.

[Grey Mage]

So... five games, one point value, and a footslogging list against a unit designed to eat footslogging units and youre ready to throw in the towel?
 

Come on, you can do better than that. This isnt an insurmountable problem with a bit of work. Its just like near the end of 3rd you had to be truely careful to make sure you had enough antitank in your army. Now you gotta figure out how to get enough anti-flyer in your army without diluting your effectiveness elsewhere.

[Blacksad]

I know there's a way around the flyer problem. the last game I played was vs a flying circus, and I tabled him. IF you change your list, and build it specificaly to take down flyerspam lists, you can win, easily. I just feel that if a unit forces people to write their list specificaly to stop that single unit if they want to have a chance at winning, the unit is overpowered.

 

just to be clear: I'm not waiting for a new codex. Our codex is good as it is. the problem is in the ruling around flyers. They're poorly written, and clearly done so with intent.

[Grey Mage]

Did you find that the units you included to take down the flying circus were all that different than the units youd take to bring down other things? Did it make youre list weak against generalist armies without flyers somehow? Or has the balance point just shifted along a new axis?

[Blacksad]

it forced me to play my SW asif they were imperial fists. if I wanted to play imperial fists, I'd have painted them yellow.

 

and yes, I had to change my list drasticaly, due to needing to include the quad gun thingy, the whole list needs to change.

[Grey Mage]

*spreads hands* Then dont take the quad gun, there are other options.

Though I think you have a point in that hunker down and shoot has become a much used tactic because of the flyers running around, and thats a good chunk of why folk think assault is dead.

[WolfLordSam]

We are the Emperor's finest. We are the Wolves of Fenris, the blessed Sons of Russ! We do whatever it takes to win and bring glory to Russ and the Allfather! If that means charging headlong into battle, bellowing a war cry, awesome! If, however, that means standing strong behind a barricade, shooting a big frakking gun, the last bulwark of defense and an inspiration to the beleagured Guard troops all around us, so be it. The Emperor shall prevail, and we shall be the ones to make it happen!

[dswanick]

*spreads hands* Then dont take the quad gun, there are other options.

 

Though I think you have a point in that hunker down and shoot has become a much used tactic because of the flyers running around, and thats a good chunk of why folk think assault is dead.

I've found the exact opposite.  A successful tactic for me is a hard-core counter-attack:

3X 10-man Grey Hunter packs (2X dual-Plasma, 1X dual-Melta, MotW, PW, Standard) w/ Drop Pod

2X 5-man Grey Hunter packs (Flamer, PW) w/ TDAWGPL (C-Mg, PW), in a Drop Pod

1X 6-man Long Fang pack (2X P.Cannon, 3X H.Bolter, PW) w/ WGPL (PW), in a Drop Pod

with attached 2X Rune Priests (JotWW/LL, JotWW/MH, 1X CotS)

WG dedicated Drop Pod

Thunderwolf Cavalry (PF, SS), w/ Wolf Lord on TWM (TH, RA, SS, MB, WTT, WTK,  SotB)

 

Getting four Drop Pods turn 1 plus a TWC unit bearing down on their position makes all of my opponent's sweat, and usually produces some faulty target-selection choices.

By the time any enemy Flyers are on the board, my guys are so intermingled with his that there are almost no valid targets for them, even if they manage to enter the board in such a way as to not over-fly everyone.

[skeletoro]

Yeah, other than forge world, I think max impact turn 1 is probably the way to go vs a flyer heavy opponent.

[Wulfebane]

Is it me, or has this become more about anti-air angst and less about new codex brainstorming?

[MaveriK]

Brainstorming anti-air aye?!.... Mmmm well, it would be cool to have a SW equivalent howitzer. Manned by either Kaerls, lead by a Grey Hunter or Long Fang in the heavy support slot.