Going Ork Hunting - Gabriel Seth?

[teblin]

Fighting Orks @ 1500 pts next week, Seth looks cheap and powerful in CC, and has some neat special rules.

 

Is he a good choice for fighting horde armies like Orks? And does Blood Reaver hit at Initiative 1 or not?

[CaptainHelion]

Seth is an interesting case, as BA HQ go. He's not actually all that great, but I've always found him a thrill to run.

His problems as I can see  them are:

1. He doesn't provide the army with any kind of buff, despite being a frig dang Chapter Master.
2. He's on foot, meaning he'll take a while to get anywhere, and is pretty easy to outmaneuver. Getting him where he belongs (In assault) is a bitch.
3. He's only in Power Armour. While he does also have an Iron Halo, so you'll basically always have a save, it's still not as good as having Artificer armour as well.
4. Blood Reaver isn't a power weapon. Rending is all well and good, but it's not reliable like a power weapon is.
5. Overwatch. Seth is an assault dood. Getting him into assault is hard enough without a jump-pack, or fleet, but now he needs to contend with being shot to pieces before crashing into the line.
6. He has a Bolt Pistol as his primary ranged weapon. I'd advise to never fire this when you can possibly throw a grenade. A Krak grenade is higher AP and Str and longer ranged.

Now, his good points (Because he does have them, I swear):

1. Blood Reaver. Str 8, at Initiative. This thing chews through anything it wounds, assuming they don't save. Instant Death on targets T4 or less, which is nice. Plus rending, and you have yourself a tasty little dread hunter.
2. Whirlwind of Gore. Instantly wound anything you're in base contact with? Sure, I'll give up my base attacks for a few guaranteed wounds.
3. Ferocious Instincts. Seth kicks you while you're down. A Str4 attack every time you roll a 1 to hit him This one is tricky now, because RAW, it seems to only apply in challenges. But, you know, who's gonna turn down a few extra Str 4 hits? Not me.
4. His statline is better than appropriate for a Chapter Master, the only difference between him and Dante being his I5 to Dante's I6, and strictly on par with Marneus Calgar, and a wound and attack ahead of the Build-your-own CM in C:SM.

So yeah, that's Gabriel Seth. Personally, I love playing him, but I also rarely win. 

[Boomkapow]

I would pass and get a(nother?) fragioso in a pod. Against orks take at least 2 of these. Also, a dev squad with ML would do good at taking out trukks if he has them.

[Deamons Redeemer]

I dont know for HQ but take a few anti armor units, take one squad of sternguard with drop pod, the special ammo types is Nice And a furioso CC IS A MUST against lots of ork boyz, how do you kit your list?

[I am Legion]

Whirlwinds work wonders as they dont get there armour save.

Font mean to jack this thread but its sorta appropriate. can someone point out what happens if a template hits an open topped vehicle? I didnt notice anything in the Rulebook that it affects the occupants.

[teblin]

Drop pods is one thing I don't have, I must get some in the future but at the moment I don't have any.

 

I do have a Fragioso w/ DCCW and heavy flamer, 10 Sternguard with some combi-meltas, combi-plasma and a combi-flamer, 4 ML Devs, and a Forgeworld pred which I can kit out as a Baal with Flamestorm and flamers.

 

I also have a LR Crusader which I was going to run as a Redeemer for this match.

 

I also have some Hammernators, 10 ASMs and a JP Chappy.

[knife&fork]

Drop pods is one thing I don't have, I must get some in the future but at the moment I don't have any.

 

I highly recommend half a dozen pods to any BA player :P

 

You'll hate your life assembling them one by one, dedicate one day and finish them all in one go.

[Office temp]

I would pass and get a(nother?) fragioso in a pod. Against orks take at least 2 of these. Also, a dev squad with ML would do good at taking out trukks if he has them.

Fragiosos are great, but they're not hq units

[Leonaides]

Seth is an interesting case, as BA HQ go. He's not actually all that great, but I've always found him a thrill to run.

His problems as I can see  them are:

1. He doesn't provide the army with any kind of buff, despite being a frig dang Chapter Master.
2. He's on foot, meaning he'll take a while to get anywhere, and is pretty easy to outmaneuver. Getting him where he belongs (In assault) is a bitch.
3. He's only in Power Armour. While he does also have an Iron Halo, so you'll basically always have a save, it's still not as good as having Artificer armour as well.
4. Blood Reaver isn't a power weapon. Rending is all well and good, but it's not reliable like a power weapon is.
5. Overwatch. Seth is an assault dood. Getting him into assault is hard enough without a jump-pack, or fleet, but now he needs to contend with being shot to pieces before crashing into the line.
6. He has a Bolt Pistol as his primary ranged weapon. I'd advise to never fire this when you can possibly throw a grenade. A Krak grenade is higher AP and Str and longer ranged.

Now, his good points (Because he does have them, I swear):

1. Blood Reaver. Str 8, at Initiative. This thing chews through anything it wounds, assuming they don't save. Instant Death on targets T4 or less, which is nice. Plus rending, and you have yourself a tasty little dread hunter.
2. Whirlwind of Gore. Instantly wound anything you're in base contact with? Sure, I'll give up my base attacks for a few guaranteed wounds.
3. Ferocious Instincts. Seth kicks you while you're down. A Str4 attack every time you roll a 1 to hit him This one is tricky now, because RAW, it seems to only apply in challenges. But, you know, who's gonna turn down a few extra Str 4 hits? Not me.
4. His statline is better than appropriate for a Chapter Master, the only difference between him and Dante being his I5 to Dante's I6, and strictly on par with Marneus Calgar, and a wound and attack ahead of the Build-your-own CM in C:SM.

So yeah, that's Gabriel Seth. Personally, I love playing him, but I also rarely win. 

Problems:

1) Why does he need to? Dante doesnt provide an army-wide buff either. He is what he is - dont complain because he's not Vulkan H'estan...

2) He's on foot so can go in any transport you want. Want to pod in with a command squad or sternguard - go for it, want the flexibilty to choose the Rhino/Razorback/Landraider or SR - go for it. Is it really the end of everything if he hasnt got a jump pack (in which case there'd be complaints that he cant go in most vehicles).

3) Only in Power Armour... Yes - there are better saves out there, but really not that many, and he's still got a pretty good chance of taking out an enemy before they kill him (assuming they have an AP 2/Instant Death weapon) because he strikes at his I, with a S8 weapon.

4) Lack of Power Weapon status doesnt really matter that much when your opponent has a 5+ save (like most Orks) and you only need 1 wound caused to ID them.

5) Overwatch - does Overwatch mean Death Company are useless? No. So neither does it mean that Seth is a bad choice. TBH he ought to be charging within a unit so someone else should be taking the Overwatch hits...

6) I'm fairly sure that Krak grenades are a shorter range than a Bolt Pistol, and again - why would you spend 15pts on an upgraded pistol weapon on a CC character who will probably only get to fire it once at a worthwhile target?

 

Benefitts:

1) Bloodreaver is a vehicle-killer, even without rending. It is also a potential threat that your opponnent cannot ignore when deciding if he can take you in CC, there is always the chance of getting a rending hit that ID's most characters, let alone he strikes at I and failed armour saves happen...

2) Auto-hit, not wound... Important distinction but situationally useful.

3) Gives him a chance if/when he gets outnumbered in CC (usually around the time his accompanying squad dies, or if you've just charged something like an IG blob-squad or your opponent has chosen to allocate attacks against Seth if he wasnt part of another unit when he charged in).

 

 

 

Just some counter-points you might want to consider.

[teblin]

Some great points in this thread.

 

Even if he fails miserably he looks fun, and he's pretty damn cheap for a 4-wound model.

[Demoulius]

He's not our most efficient or cheapest choice but tbh hes far from bad either :) lack of power weapon status only means that people always get saves. Given how they changed power weapons though that means that alot of other hq's would have the same disadvantage or are now striking at I1...

If you get a rending hit on a enemy HQ (toughness 4) he gets instant gibbed, not bad either :) warbosses are T5 IIRC though so you are going to have to chew through those :( I think Mek's are toughness 4 though as are the weirdboyz. Then again I havent fought them in a long while so I could be wrong

[Boomkapow]

 

I would pass and get a(nother?) fragioso in a pod. Against orks take at least 2 of these. Also, a dev squad with ML would do good at taking out trukks if he has them.

Fragiosos are great, but they're not hq units

 

I wasn't advising to go against the force org and go hq-less. I was saying that I'd advise a cheaper option and use the extra points for something more efficient against orks. 

[CaptainHelion]

Seth is an interesting case, as BA HQ go. He's not actually all that great, but I've always found him a thrill to run.

His problems as I can see them are:

1. He doesn't provide the army with any kind of buff, despite being a frig dang Chapter Master.
2. He's on foot, meaning he'll take a while to get anywhere, and is pretty easy to outmaneuver. Getting him where he belongs (In assault) is a bitch.
3. He's only in Power Armour. While he does also have an Iron Halo, so you'll basically always have a save, it's still not as good as having Artificer armour as well.
4. Blood Reaver isn't a power weapon. Rending is all well and good, but it's not reliable like a power weapon is.
5. Overwatch. Seth is an assault dood. Getting him into assault is hard enough without a jump-pack, or fleet, but now he needs to contend with being shot to pieces before crashing into the line.
6. He has a Bolt Pistol as his primary ranged weapon. I'd advise to never fire this when you can possibly throw a grenade. A Krak grenade is higher AP and Str and longer ranged.

Now, his good points (Because he does have them, I swear):

1. Blood Reaver. Str 8, at Initiative. This thing chews through anything it wounds, assuming they don't save. Instant Death on targets T4 or less, which is nice. Plus rending, and you have yourself a tasty little dread hunter.
2. Whirlwind of Gore. Instantly wound anything you're in base contact with? Sure, I'll give up my base attacks for a few guaranteed wounds.
3. Ferocious Instincts. Seth kicks you while you're down. A Str4 attack every time you roll a 1 to hit him This one is tricky now, because RAW, it seems to only apply in challenges. But, you know, who's gonna turn down a few extra Str 4 hits? Not me.
4. His statline is better than appropriate for a Chapter Master, the only difference between him and Dante being his I5 to Dante's I6, and strictly on par with Marneus Calgar, and a wound and attack ahead of the Build-your-own CM in C:SM.

So yeah, that's Gabriel Seth. Personally, I love playing him, but I also rarely win.

Problems:

1) Why does he need to? Dante doesnt provide an army-wide buff either. He is what he is - dont complain because he's not Vulkan H'estan...

2) He's on foot so can go in any transport you want. Want to pod in with a command squad or sternguard - go for it, want the flexibilty to choose the Rhino/Razorback/Landraider or SR - go for it. Is it really the end of everything if he hasnt got a jump pack (in which case there'd be complaints that he cant go in most vehicles).

3) Only in Power Armour... Yes - there are better saves out there, but really not that many, and he's still got a pretty good chance of taking out an enemy before they kill him (assuming they have an AP 2/Instant Death weapon) because he strikes at his I, with a S8 weapon.

4) Lack of Power Weapon status doesnt really matter that much when your opponent has a 5+ save (like most Orks) and you only need 1 wound caused to ID them.

5) Overwatch - does Overwatch mean Death Company are useless? No. So neither does it mean that Seth is a bad choice. TBH he ought to be charging within a unit so someone else should be taking the Overwatch hits...

6) I'm fairly sure that Krak grenades are a shorter range than a Bolt Pistol, and again - why would you spend 15pts on an upgraded pistol weapon on a CC character who will probably only get to fire it once at a worthwhile target?

Benefitts:

1) Bloodreaver is a vehicle-killer, even without rending. It is also a potential threat that your opponnent cannot ignore when deciding if he can take you in CC, there is always the chance of getting a rending hit that ID's most characters, let alone he strikes at I and failed armour saves happen...

2) Auto-hit, not wound... Important distinction but situationally useful.

3) Gives him a chance if/when he gets outnumbered in CC (usually around the time his accompanying squad dies, or if you've just charged something like an IG blob-squad or your opponent has chosen to allocate attacks against Seth if he wasnt part of another unit when he charged in).

Just some counter-points you might want to consider.

Problems:

1. Seth doesn't provide the army with ANYTHING, though. Dante at least unlocks Sanguinary Guard as troops, Astorath has his Red Thirst and DC boost, Tycho has Rites of Battle, the Sanguinor has all his stuff, Kantor makes Sternguard score, Vulkan does his flamer-melta party trick, and Marneus Calgar provides Lord of Battle. I'm not asking for a twin-linked multi-melta party, just something that affects more than just Seth, and maybe the squad he deploys in.
2. This is a good point, but it still doesn't get around the fact that Seth is a bit slow, and not incredibly maneuverable without some kind of compensation elsewhere in the list.
3. You're right that Power Armour will cover Seth's behind pretty much every case. I mostly only mention this because pretty much all the comparable BA HQs (And some from C:SM) have Artificer Armour, which is just that much nicer.
4. Fair point. As I've mentioned, I run Seth a fair bit, and I really don't mind the lack of power weapon for the most part. But as I mentioned, the reliability of an AP value from being a power weapon would great. Reliability is nice.
5. Overwatch is a problem for any assault unit in 6th Ed, especially for Seth, as he doesn't have much in the way of shooting. This doesn't make him useless, and I'm fairly certain I never said that it did. But he is an assaulty dood, and Overwatch makes assaulting that much more difficult.
6. You're right about this one, for sure. Grenades are 8". For some reason I thought they were 12". Whoops. Bolt pistol is probably just as good an idea as chucking a grenade. But remember about the grenades!

Here, we pretty much agree.

Benefits:

1. Oh yeah it is I do love to carve open tanks. Blood Reaver is honestly just great.
2. Again, you're right. Whirlwind of Gore auto-hits, but doesn't auto-wound. My mistake.
3. Yes, pretty much exactly what it's good for.

[Morticon]

If you're up against orks- then try Tycho?

 

His PE: Orks rule will mean that the squad with him gets it too.  Thats great for Sternguard buffs or DC buffs or even a Dev squad with masses HBs? 

 

Lots of options there.