Checking range with template weapons... how?

[Squirrelloid]

You'd think this would be pretty basic, but GW has still failed to provide a method to check range with a template weapon.  Worse, now weapons which are out of range don't even fire, so the rules have made the issue even muddier.

 

Let's be clear about a couple things up front:

(1) The rules do not provide any obvious or intuitive procedure for doing this.

(2) The rules do tell you that all measurements are made with a tape measure.  As template weapons have no special procedure for checking range, they must also (somehow) check range with a tape measure.

(3) The rules never permit you to place the template in step 2.  We can only do what the rules permit us to do, so you cannot check range with the template itself. (As if being explicitly told that you must make measurements with a tape measure wasn't enough).

(4) Replaced/Edit 2: The rules both require the weapon not be out of range and be in range.  (pp12 + 13)

 

So, to provide a starting point, I've come up with two possible interpretations, listed in the order to which they conform to the RAW.

 

(a.) Strict RAW: Template weapons measure the distance between the weapon and the closest in-LoS model in the target unit as normal.  (Result: a measurement in inches, x).  This value, x, is then compare to "the word 'Template'".   Now, the rules ask us to determine if the weapon is out of range, that is, if x > $Range.  Since x > 'Template' is a nonsense comparison, it is not true (it is also not false, but the rules only give a consequence if it is true), and thus the template weapon is not out of range and may fire. 

 

Pros: It is exactly what the rules say.

Issues: Not intuitive at all.  Requires assessing an unusual truth condition, something which 95% of the playerbase is unlikely to have the knowledge to do.  Worse, it involves assessing a truth condition where the result is 'neither true nor false' and having to remember which specific condition was given a consequence.  Trying to explain this to other people is going to be a headache for both parties.

 

Update/Edit2: Sigh, Checking Range looks at x > $Range, but Who Can Fire looks at x < $Range. So both of these comparisons are 'neither true nor false' for templates by RAW, which means technically templates cannot fire ever.

 

(b.) Minimal RAW deviant intuitive version: Ignore the rules when it tells you the range of a template weapon is "the word 'Template'".  Measure your template.  (I believe it is 8.25").  Use this as the actual range, and check range normally.

 

Pros: Reasonably intuitive. Makes templates behave exactly like other weapons for checking range by giving them a numeric range.  Also, unlike the RAW, it actually lets you fire template weapons.

Issues: The rules are very specific that the range is "the word 'Template'" (that's p52 btw), so it isn't that we're glossing over a grey area.  We're specifically ignoring the rules.  This strains the boundaries of reckoning 'intent' quite a bit.

 

Any further deviation requires ignoring multiple rules if not all the relevant rules, and any argument for 'intent' becomes questionable when you start tossing out *all* the rules in the book.  The above ignores only one rule and adds in only one additional procedure (measure the template), which is the minimum necessary.  Edit2: I think the only intent we can agree on here is that templates should be able to fire.

 

I submitted this as a FAQ/errata issue over a month ago, and the only response I've gotten is their automated 'thanks for emailing' response, so I'm not hopeful about GW ever addressing this.

 

Thoughts?  Assuming adhering to the actual rules is high on your list of priorities - How do you think you should check range with a template while doing your best to adhere to the rules?

 

I'd also ask that participants please restrict themselves specifically to the question of how templates check range.

 

Edit: b + ) is the most annoying auto-smilie ever...

 

Edit 2: Correction: Gah, the 'Checking Range' section isn't the only relevant section, there's also 'Who Can Fire'... because we needed two separate sections for that apparently.  And they use *different language*.  (a.) has been appropriately updated.

[Leonaides]

Why not print out the word 'template' in A really really large font, and use that to measure? Makes about as much sense as deliberately working a crowbar into every single rule that gw have written that isn't linguisticly perfect and watertight in a court of law? Even laws aren't written that clearly......

[Squirrelloid]

Why not print out the word 'template' in A really really large font, and use that to measure? Makes about as much sense as deliberately working a crowbar into every single rule that gw have written that isn't linguisticly perfect and watertight in a court of law? Even laws aren't written that clearly......

 

So my (b.) is an acceptable compromise to you between rules fidelity and being actually playable?  Or do you insist that templates check range some other way?

 

Edit: And in this case I ask because I have no idea what we're actually supposed to do.  At least in the last edition the 'weapons always fire' made a fair argument that you could just skip step 2 with templates and go immediately to step 3. 

 

The rules have us measure range and then check it against the weapon, which for templates leads to nonsense.  I should be able to know how to fire a template before I get to a table with an actual opponent, this is a pretty basic element of the rules.  I don't.  I have to make something up to even get one to legally fire at all, and that's deeply unsatisfying.  What do I do if my opponent makes something different up?  Who's right?  Do I need to discuss templates with every opponent before every game?  What about tournaments? Can I expect a general tournament ruling on how templates actually work?  Do I need to force them to commit to an interpretation ahead of time so I know how they are actually going to play on the tabletop?

 

But no, I'm the bad guy because I can't figure out what I'm supposed to do based on the rulebook!

[Dam13n]

It's really simple:

 

You place the template, if it can be placed so it has any models from the target enemy unit underneath it then it is in range.

 

BRB Pages 52 and 53 clearly show you how to use templates.

 

If you want to be pedantic, measure the length of the template with your tape measure then use that length (8.5" as it turns out) to see if you are in range.

 

- - - - - - - - -

 

This is yet another unhelpful thread, just like:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276522-no-character-can-ever-legally-declare-a-challenge-gw-fail/

 

Also started by you, and subsequently locked by Dark Guard because it's a pointless discussion that hinges on the fact that GW can't write clear and concise rules.

 

I expect this one should follow suit and be locked by the Mods.

[SeattleDV8]

Sigh, you did this one before http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244709-situational-questions-if-template-is-a-literal-range/?hl= template  range.

[Squirrelloid]

It's really simple:

 

You place the template, if it can be placed so it has any models from the target enemy unit underneath it then it is in range.

 

BRB Pages 52 and 53 clearly show you how to use templates.

 

If you want to be pedantic, measure the length of the template with your tape measure then use that length (8.5" as it turns out) to see if you are in range.

 

- - - - - - - - -

 

This is yet another unhelpful thread, just like:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276522-no-character-can-ever-legally-declare-a-challenge-gw-fail/

 

Also started by you, and subsequently locked by Dark Guard because it's a pointless discussion that hinges on the fact that GW can't write clear and concise rules.

 

I expect this one should follow suit and be locked by the Mods.

 

Except you can't place the template to check range.  You are never instructed to place the template to check range.  "Instead of rolling to hit, place the template..." (BGB p52)  That's the only permission to place the template, and it happens after you've determined you can fire.

 

Further, templates have no special instructions for checking range, so they check range like any other weapon.  That procedure is on p12, and it states: "When checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit."  Only then do you compare to the weapon range.

 

p4 on measuring distances: "In games of Warhammer 40000, distances are measured in inches (") with a tape measure or measuring stick."

 

Putting the template down to check range is markedly deviant from the rules.  It ignores the rule about measuring in inches.  It ignores the template rules which tells you to do so instead of *rolling to hit*, it ignores the checking range rules. 

 

From a playing the game standpoint, range must be checked to the nearest model in line of sight, but the template ignores LoS when calculating hits, making it possible to touch models in the target squad without being able to touch a single model the unit with the template weapon can see.  In fact, when placing the template, you might be compelled to place the template in such a way that it only touches models out of sight, even if you could touch a model you had sight to, because your directive is to maximize models touched.  The template also has to be placed to avoid touching friendly models, whereas no such consideration applies to checking range.  In short, using the length of the template as its range can give markedly different results than placing the template for determining 'range', because the template placement rules have different goals and follow markedly different procedures than checking range. 

 

Finally, this is not just a case of GW's failure to write clear and concise rules.  This is a case of GW ignoring at least calls over 4 editions to issue an errata or faq on the subject.  Its also a case where its utterly unclear from the rules what you're actually supposed to do,  because for the first time that I can remember, weapons are actually not fired if they are found to be out of range.  (In previous editions, weapons always fired, and if you were found to be out of range you missed).  Suddenly it becomes critical that you are able to make a determination about whether a template weapon is in range or not.

 

@Seattle: The rules have changed significantly and relevantly in the meantime.

[Dam13n]

There is no FAQ because there is no need for one. Template weapons don't need this explaining, the answer is blatantly obvious.

 

The length of the template IS the range of the template.

 

Everybody I know uses the template to check range, it's the way it's always worked.

 

Being overly pedantic about GWs wording of rules will earn you nothing but frustration...

[Squirrelloid]

There is no FAQ because there is no need for one. Template weapons don't need this explaining, the answer is blatantly obvious.

 

The length of the template IS the range of the template.

 

Everybody I know uses the template to check range, it's the way it's always worked.

 

Being overly pedantic about GWs wording of rules will earn you nothing but frustration...

 

Its hardly pedantic when your proposed solution ignores every single relevant rule in the book.  (On measurements, p4.  On checking range, p12.  On template weapons, p52, which is explicit that the template placement is instead of rolling to hit, which means its already firing and you're past checking for range).  But lets ignore that for a moment.

 

When 'using the template to check range', do you require it to touch a model that is in line of sight or not?  If you can only touch models in the target unit that are out of LoS, does it still fire?

 

What happens if you could touch a model that's in line of sight, but the rule about covering as many models as possible compels you not to (because you can touch more models in the target unit if you only touch models that are out of LoS)?  Does it still fire?

 

As far as 'the way its always worked'... for the last 3 editions templates simply didn't check range because they didn't need to.  They always fired.  Unique to 6th edition is that weapons may only fire if they're in range, which is a substantial rules change (likely a consequence of 'can always measure').  So now to even fire a template weapon we need to be able to determine we are in range, a state of affairs unique in GW's publishing history afaik.

[Huginn]

Step 1: Don't play lawyers.

Step 2: Use the template to check range.

 

If someone I was playing called foul for using the template to check range I would call the game.

 

I lost, whatever. I will play someone else and have fun.

[SeattleDV8]

New edition, same pointless argument.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243766-templates-and-los/

[Dam13n]

You can only shoot if you can see a model in range.

 

So a model in line of sight that is within range of the template.

 

We know (from a great many threads recently) that the 6th edition rules are so full of holes they resemble a sieve.

 

What you are suggesting is that Template weapons can never be fired, ever because of the fact that the writers don't get what they write proof-read properly.

 

That is clearly wrong.  This is another example of failed RAW, therefore RAI takes precedence.

 

If you can't accept that then that's on you.

 

The whole point of the OR isn't for people to point out how crap GW are at writing rules, it's to help people who don't understand how a rule is supposed to work, so ask a legitimate question to other members of the frater in order to get a better understanding of those rules.

 

Does this mean we always come to a consensus - no, but the argument usually produces a reasonable solution, even if it's to direct people to "the most important rule"

 

There is no question here.  Therefore this topic has no place in the OR forum.

 

If you want to point out every single badly worded rule GW has put in the BRB and Codices, then by all means start a blog on the subject.  Or post your complaints in Amicus.  Or better yet, write to GW.

 

This thread needs nuking!

[Magpie]

Wow you guys take on all the BIG questions don't you .........................

[Dam13n]

Magpie - Yes, yes we do...

 

It's just that there is no question here to be answered.

 

:P

[Squirrelloid]

@Dam13n: Initially when I posted the thread, I thought there was a RAW-legal way for them to fire, then I noticed we had two different sections about checking range and firing with different language (hence the edit), which is silly, but there it is.

 

Further, I even agree in the OP that I think we can agree templates should be able to fire.  The question is 'how?'  How you answer that question has serious implications for when and how templates fire.  Which RAI do we go with?   Which is most correct?  That's the question here.

 

I'm preparing an image to illustrate the issues, to follow shortly.

[Squirrelloid]

Okay:

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg42/Squirrelloid/Templateissues.png

 

Situation 1:

To start with, let's pretend the models represented by dashed lines are not there.

-The model with the template weapon has LoS to a model in the squad.

-The template can touch multiple models in the squad if it gets to fire.

-The template can not touch a model within LoS

 

Does it get to fire?

 

Situation 2:

Now let's introduce the dashed blue model.

-The model with the template weapon has LoS

-The model with the template weapon has range to the dashed model

-The template is still compelled to place as shown, to touch as many units as possible, if it gets to fire.  (That is, despite the template being able to reach a model in LoS, it is compelled to not touch that model).

 

Does it get to fire?

 

Situation 3:

Now let's also introduce the dashed green model (keeping the dashed blue one)

-The model with the template weapon has LoS

-The model with the template weapon has range to the dashed model if and only if you check this by measuring with a tape measure against the templates 8.25".  You cannot place the template to touch him, because of the intervening friendly model.

-The template is still legally allowed to place as shown if it gets to fire.

Does it get to fire?

[Dam13n]

Aha questions, excellent and appreciated.

Applying the Range, Line of Sight and Template RAW as closely as possible:

- Using the Template as both an indicator of models hit and a range measure (although not necessarily at the same time - as will be noted where applicable below)

(putting aside the previous argument as to whether or not this is acceptable for now)

Situation 1 - he cannot see a model that is within range of his weapon - may not shoot the template weapon (although if it's a marine, he could always shoot his bolt pistol instead)

Situation 2 - he can see a model in range of his weapon - he may shoot, placing the template as shown in your diagram (as detailed by the template rules), however the only model that can take any wounds caused by the template is the dashed model as no members of the green squad can see the blue models out of line of sight (see BRB page 16 - out of sight)

note: this likely will be complicated by the rest of the squad firing as well, it is likely that the 3 non-dashed members of the blue unit in line of sight will be in range of these shots. Therefore, as per the wound allocation rules, they become eligible to have wounds allocated to them (from the template weapon) even though they are out of range of the template itself (BRB page 16 - out of range).

Situation 3 - you could still use the template to check range (as a measure only), having established that a model in the enemy unit is in range of the weapon and line of sight of the bearer then it would fire as in situation 2. You aren't actually placing the template to check for hits at first, just using it to check range.

The outcome of scenarios 2 and 3 do seem incredibly stupid, but that's the way GW have written the rules.

- - - - - - - -

Now applying common sense (something we know GWs development team lack):

Scenario 1 - cannot see model in range - can't shoot the template weapon

Scenario 2 - can see model in range, but can't see majority of the unit in range - the template should be placed to cover as many models within the firers line of sight as possible (in this case 1)

Scenario 3 - cannot achieve the above because of an intervening friendly model - can't shoot the template weapon

IMHO this is how it should work, and might look to house rule it this way.

[Squirrelloid]

I'm pretty sure the template hits can actually be applied to all the models with check marks.  Acceptable casualties are determined on a unit basis, not a per model basis.  As per p15-16, wounds go into a pool regardless of source.  As per the top of p16, as long as the firing model was in-range initially, it is treated as being in range regardless of whether casualties are removed.  That is, the pool doesn't distinguish, so long as the enemy model was in range of *someone*.  Being out of LoS from all shooting models means that wounds cannot be assigned (so the ones behind the terrain can never take a wound), but wounds from the flamer could apply to all visible models if it is determined to be in range (edit: so long as each visible model is in range and LoS of some model of the firing unit).

 

This is the same principle as using a magna-grapple to extend the kill range of a frag cannon (and heavy flamer) for a furioso dreadnought.

 

But okay, we actually are in substantial agreement as to how we should probably check range, it just wasn't clear what you meant by 'using the template' to check range.  (Which is why i specifically represented that method as converting the template to a number in inches, because it was unambiguous).

[Dam13n]

Hence why I added the note to Scenario 2.

 

The original part of the answer would apply if only the template weapon were firing.  As you need to be in range of a model that is actually shooting in order to have a wound allocated to you.

 

 

BRB FAQ bottom of page 4:

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within range of any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e. half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half are not)? (p15)
A: No.

 

Whichever works with checking the range, the simplest method is to use the template as a measure (that way it's exact) however using a tape measure to measure the 8.?" is equally valid, just less precise.  (you mentioned 8.25", yet my GW neon green template measured closer to 8.5"... meh)

[Squirrelloid]

Wait, have they changed size? My old 3rd edition template is 8.25" almost exactly.

[Dam13n]

Maybe, I no longer own a 3rd edition template to compare them.

 

I also don't know anybody who uses them... Maybe next time you get a game in - check against your opponents.  If you're not measuring up (giggidy!), you might need to consider updating your template...

[Disruptor_fe404]

The soft plastic ones (which I believe came with the 3rd ed set) are pretty prone to warping and contracting.

 

We use the solid (really solid!) neon-green ones for our games.

[Gurth]

I think I have the solution to your whole conundrum.

(3) The rules never permit you to place the template in step 2.  We can only do what the rules permit us to do, so you cannot check range with the template itself.

Tell me, does it say anywhere that you can't place the template on the table? Not for measuring, but just in general, putting it down on the table somewhere. Checking the rulebook, I find that both pages xi and xii implicitly condone the practice of putting the templates on the table when they're not in use.

 

So, what you do is to get the template ready shortly before you need it to work out which models will be hit. You then place it on the table within easy reach when you need it — say, with its tip against the base of the firing model, and the rest of the template as close to the intended targets as possible. Over them might be a good idea, as this way it will be very close at hand when working out which models get hit. You then measure the range using your measuring tape or stick.

Assuming adhering to the actual rules is high on your list of priorities

If that's your idea of fun, sure. Your posts here all look to me like you might try looking for another hobby. Practicing law, maybe?

[Dam13n]

Gurth - we'd already resolved this. As you might see from one of Squirreloid's posts above.

 

(And the fact that we'd skipped onto something completely different)

[Gurth]

No offense, but I take it that to you, "irony" means "somewhat like iron"?

[Dam13n]

It's all well and good being ironic but this topic had been resolved.

 

The OR has had big problems with trolling recently and stirring up a dead topic here doesn't help matters.

 

And no, to me irony doesn't mean somewhat like iron. It is the act of being ironic, facetious or sarcastic (as per the English disctionary/thesaurus).

 

Now that may have been your intent, but was it really necessary? Also you managed to convey it in a condescending and insulting way, which isn't appropriate.

 

Saying "no offense" doesn't absolve you of being offensive.

 

The issue here is resolved, the questions answered and this topic should be closed.