infiltrating anti-tank raptors?

[Someblindmarineplayer]

is it within the rules to use blackheart's trait to infiltrate "jump infantry"?

[Verbal Underbelly]

Don't know. You'll have to look at the wording in both his warlord trait and the infiltrate rules.

[Xenith]

Only infantry are allowed to get into transports. The transport rule states specifically that 'jump infantry' are specifically excluded from this, meaning that, unsurprisingly, "jump infantry" are not "infantry"

[Iron_Within]

Only infantry are allowed to get into transports. The transport rule states specifically that 'jump infantry' are specifically excluded from this, meaning that, unsurprisingly, "jump infantry" are not "infantry"

 

I wouldn't agree that it automatically excludes them from infiltrating, flying transports can transport jump infantry as well as others, they count as 'bulky'. I would say they are able to infiltrate as they are infantry, whereas, a bike, as an example are specifically different and so unable to use the infiltrate rules.

[Dam13n]

Read BRB page 47 - Jump Infantry top paragraph.

 

Jump Infantry are still Infantry.

 

So yes, Raptors can benefit from Master of Deception.

[Xenith]

BRB:

 

 

Page 78: "Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise". 

If the land raider specifically says that it can transport jump infantry, then they can get in.

 

The bulky/very bulky just defines how many spaces a model takes up in a transport that it can enter. Like a stormeagle.

[Deus de Mortalis]

They can definitely infiltrate.

 

The rule in the chaos dex states "nominate up to D3 Infantry units in your army before deployment. Those units gain the Infiltrate special rule."

 

And then check this out from the BRB:

 

"Jump units are equipped with jump packs, wings, teleport devices or other means of rnoving quickly over short distances. Unlike most other unit type categories, jump' is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you'll find it occurs before another category - commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry."

 

So Jump Infantry is definitely infantry, and therefore can be given infiltrate.

[Xenith]

Wicked, that's a good development. Jump chaos lord?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Still Infantry, just has the Independent Character rule tacked on to it.  That being said, I've found the idea of a jump lord initially appealing, but difficult to put into practice.  First, if you're taking Huron and then a lord as a second option, you're missing out on a sorcerer or DP in that second slot.  You could always take Ahriman instead, but common consensus is that he costs too much for what he brings to the table.  Secondly, the way the Infiltrate mechanics work, you can't actually Infiltrate a character with a unit unless they both have Infiltrate, so if you roll a 1 for your MoD roll, who do you give it to?  The Raptors?  Now they're short their serious combat power.  The Lord?  Now he's all alone and liable to one-shotted by missiles or plasma'd to death.  The other option in this scenario is to Outflank them all together -- no rule against that -- but now you're beholden to your Reserve rolls.

 

It's not impossible to make it work.  I did it successfully when the codex was new, and in a friendly game it might not be that much of an issue.  If you're talking competitive, though, you're better off with other options I think.

[Dam13n]

Deus - you give it to the Lord.

 

It states that a character without infiltrate cannot join a unit with it.

Nowhere does it state that you can't join a character with infiltrate to a unit without it.

- The infiltrate rules then state (if a unit contains 1 model with this USR...)

- The character thus gives infiltrate to the unit

- Who could in turn give it to their transport

 

!!!Warning - Cheese Alert!!!

 

It does raise the idea of a Jump Pack Lord/Sorcerer with the Burning Brand and a unit of Bikes with a Combi-melta Champ and 2 Meltaguns:

- Character gains infiltrate through Master of Deception

- Joins Bikes at deployment giving them infiltrate

- Character and Bikes Infiltrate

- Turn 1 they separate and either:

-- The Bikes then nuke a Transport and the Lord Crispy-fries the prior occupants = First Blood (Transport) and an enemy unit potentially crippled.

-- The Bikes then nuke an expensive vehicle and the Lord Char-grills a separate enemy unit = First Blood (Vehicle) and an enemy unit potentially crippled.

-- etc.

Not a bad little alpha-strike combo - and all for 1 Master of Deception allocation.

[TheDevourer]

However in order to do that you are putting approx. +300 pts into your hq choices. But as far as I see your strategy is viable. Might have to see if that works out. Hmmm 

[arkagl]

I'd say I'd only do this at like 1999+1 or more points. Maybe 1850 but def not 1500 or less. Also you doing this but not getting any troop units infiltrating. 

 

Now I'm not sure how the rule applies to non battle bros but even without that your demons who have to struggle across the board could be infiltrated in bushes.

[Dam13n]

Oh, absolutely. I wouldn't use it in small games either. Too many points in too few models.

 

It's an interesting tactic though.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It doesn't work like that, Damien.

 

 

BGB, pg 39: "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined."

 

BGB, pg 121: "The sequence for Infiltrators and Scouts is the same in all Eternal War mission.  First, both payers deploy their forces (apart from any units left kept as Reserves or that chose to use their Infiltrate special rule).   When both players have deployed their main force, then they deploy their Infiltrators (as described on page 38).

 

Emphasis mine for effect.  This means the order of operation in this case is:

 

Step One: Deploy everything that is not a Reserve or Infiltrator.  An IC can be deployed next to a unit to join the unit.

Step Two: Deploy Infiltrators.  An IC with Infiltrate can be deployed next to a unit with Infiltrate to join the unit.

 

And never the twain shall meet, unless your Infiltrating IC is kept in Reserve, and your unit is kept in Reserve, and while in Reserve, the IC joins the unit.  At this point -- in Reserve -- the unit immediately gains the benefit of the IC's Infiltrate rule, meaning that the IC and unit can Outflank together.

 

This unfortunate rule interaction is why I have so many problems trying to figure what, exactly, to do with Huron.  On a MoD roll of a 1, he can't join any Infiltrators, and the units I'd like to Outflank are all ten-strong in Rhinos.  Quite the conundrum.

[Someblindmarineplayer]

that is why I'm looking ti infiltrate melta raptors, obliterators and maybe some havocs.

[Dam13n]

Dedicated transports - BRB page 78

"The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters that have joined it)."

 

The character is therefore joined to a unit before deployment. If that happens he must be in coherency with or in the same transport as it when deployed.

 

Independent Character - BRB page 39

"An independent character can begin the game already with a unit, either by bring deployed in unit coherency with it..."

 

All this means is that when deploying the character and unit together they must be in coherency. It doesn't say when they are joined.

 

Which is answered by my first quote - before deployment.

 

And reinforced by the preparing reserves section on BRB page 124 - 1st paragraph (calculating reserve limits)

"Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined a unit or not."

 

Now I would think that you determine the reserve limit before deployment, therefore the character is joined before deployment.

 

Therefore the character may give the unit infiltrate.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

A character joins a unit "by being deployed in coherency with it."  Right there in black and white.  By being DEPLOYED in coherency with it.  Which means a character can only join a unit when the character itself is actually DEPLOYED on the table.

 

No Infiltrating characters with non-Infiltrating units, unless both are placed in Reserve.