Telekinesis for C:SM players

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So I was looking back through the BGB psychic disciplines this evening, perusing Telepathy while thinking about my Chaos Marines and Divination for my Eldar.  And then I remembered Telekinesis.  I say "remembered" because no one talks about it and no one ever uses it.  I have honestly never seen anyone use this discipline before.  Given the cross-overs between Telekinesis and the Codex: Space Marine powers -- Vortex of Doom, Gate of Infinity, the similarities between Telekine Dome/Force Dome and Objuration Mechanicum/Machine Curse -- it seems to me that the new C:SM rumored to drop in October is not going to have its own psychic power selection.  After all, C:DA didn't have one.  Instead, we'll have to settle for Biomancy, Pyromancy. . . and Telekinesis.

 

Now I've been a pretty big fan of Biomancy with my Librarian; Endurance, Enfeeble, and Haemorrhage have all given good service to my Iron Hands (though Null Zone remains my favorite power ever; too bad it's likely to disappear soon).  But I got to thinking that perhaps it's time to get in front of the probable disappearance of our codex powers and try new things.  As the least popular discipline, Telekinesis has a built-in bonus: no one is going to be prepared for it.  So here are my initial thoughts on best practices with this discipline and ways that we might get some decent use out of it.

 

 

Primaris:  Assail

 

Assail is a short-range, medium-strength beam.  Lacking any AP, it relies on its initial strength value to do damage -- but again, lacking AP, you're not likely to put wounds on MEQ (xenos, on the other hand, are a possibility).  However, the value in Assail is buried in the little-used, little-known secondary rule it has called "Strikedown."  Any model that suffers a wound from it -- saved or unsaved -- halves its Initiative and moves as if in difficult terrain.  This is actually an excellent ability, specifically the half-initiative part, and is really useful for knocking enemy combat monsters down to a point where the Librarian or another character nearby can strike first and hopefully kill them first.  It sounds especially useful for knocking Eldar down a peg or two!  It is useful, but situational -- not sure it is good enough to be a Primaris, but it definitely is worth more than it appears at first glance.

 

 

Crush

 

Crush is a focused witchfire -- which poses problems in terms of reliability in and of itself -- with the potential to be devastating.  With a 2d6 strength value and a d6 AP value, you can literally squash characters and rip open tanks with this power.  Unfortunately, that's a best case scenario.  Average rolls will result in a S7 AP4 hit, and a single autocannon round is not the kind of thing that normally terrifies the enemy.  Because of the mutability of the power's strength and AP, I'd say that this one is a pass.  If you absolutely must keep it, however, I think its best target will be against a vehicle -- it's an easy way around the imprecise targeting that is the nature of focused witchfires.  Edit:  The max strength of this power is not capped at S10; it simply states that it has a strength equal to 2d6.  That means that if the dice gods like you, you could pull a strength value of 12 -- enough to cause Instant Death on T5 and T6 monstrous creatures.  It's unlikely sure, but targeting this power on an MC is, like my recommendation about using it on a tank, an excellent way to get around the targeting mutability of focused witchfires.

 

 

Gate of Infinity

 

We know it, some of us never leave home without.  The new Gate limits the range of the deep strike move to 24", which impedes the utility of the power compared to its previous incarnation.  The reason why Gate is so useful as a codex power is because you can choose it, and you can build a strategy around it.  Hoping you roll a 2 on the chart is not a reliable strategy concept.  It can be useful. . . but as a random power, I don't think it's worth it.  A guarantee of mobility is too important; pass on this one and take a drop pod instead.  Edit: Had another thought on this one.  It can be used to teleport your unit across the table for a last-turn objective grab/denial as well.  There have been several games I can recall where one of my Tactical Squads started moving from a firing position to take an objective one turn too late, and came up just a few inches short.  GoI can be used to cut out that desperate run across the field to an objective at the last minute or, if you're playing The Relic, can be used Turn One to simply jump on top of the Relic objective first thing so that you can then start dragging it back to friendly lines (hopefully) before your enemy ever gets close to it.

 

 

Objuration Mechanicum

 

Objuration is probably one of the better powers in the discipline, though it doesn't look it at first glance.  Unlike most psychic powers, it is primarily defensive in nature (despite being a malediction), forcing the enemy to reroll 6s on their to-hit and to-wound rolls (note: it does not specify shooting or melee, which means it effects both).  This also means that it can mostly prevent Rending and the AP effects of the Eldar's new Bladestorm and Monofilament rules from coming into play (not to mention preventing the Instant Death part of the Distort rule, though that's really only useful against D-scythes, since they're not S10).  It does have a secondary use as a single hit like a haywire grenade against a vehicle, in which case both effects apparently apply.  Because of this, Objuration seems like a pretty decent power to have so long as the enemy has vehicular targets for you to use it against.

 

 

Shockwave

 

Like most Nova powers, Shockwave is completely underwhelming.  It has a low strength value and no AP, with a random number of shots.  It's pinning, which is really its only redeeming value.  Unlike Assail, this one has no under-the-radar utility.  I recommend passing on it every time -- you'll probably get more use out of Assail.

 

 

Telekine Dome

 

Unlike Force Dome's Invulnerable save, which works against shooting and melee, Telekine Dome only works against shooting.  However, it does have a secondary benefit of reflecting the saved shots back at the enemy.  The reflection, however, only has a range of 6", which means that its effectiveness is of only limited value.  If you're running a predominantly infantry army or facing a foe with a plethora of Ignore Cover weapons -- such as Tau or Noise Marines -- then Dome is not a bad power to pick up.  I'd say that this one is situational to your list and your enemy's list, but it can certainly be useful to have in a pinch.  A word of warning, though: it is short range, so the Librarian needs to be close to whatever unit he's looking to buff.  Edit: Just had another thought on this one.  A Librarian can use this power on a vehicle, granting it the 5+ Invulnerable save.  This gives the Dome several additional applications I hadn't thought of before.  It can be used to protect things like Dreadnoughts, ensure your Land Raider makes it to cargo-assault range, or if your Libby is inside a transport (like mine; he rides around in a Razorback with a combat squad) then he can target the APC he's in with powers -- meaning that Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider/Storm Raven now has an Invulnerable save.  This is useful against the Tau (who can easily strip the cover we get from our smoke launchers) and, in the case of the Storm Raven, is useful against Reapers with flakk missiles or manning AA guns (since Reaper Rangefinders allow them to ignore Jink saves). 

 

 

Vortex of Doom

 

This is the only Warp Charge 2 power, so if you're not running an Epistolary, then you don't need to worry about rolling Vortex.  It is exactly the same as its codex form, including the bit about it being centered on the caster in the event of a failure to cast.  All of the previous tactics we've come up with for Vortex still apply: as a Heavy shot, it's at its most useful on a Libby in TDA, and the possibility of the Libby targeting himself gives a pretty compelling reason for him to take a storm shield.  It is however extremely useful as an anti-vehicular weapon due to the changes in how blast strength applies to vehicles in 6th Edition, and it has that magic combination of S10 and AP1 that means it can effectively engage any target in the game.  If you have an Epistolary (rare, I know), and if he is in TDA with shield (rather more common), then it might be worth it.  Once again, though, beware of its short range.

[DarkGuard]

Nice evaluation there, but as you've said a few powers are subpar, and the Primaris isn't really that great. The best ones are GoI and OM, which aren't guaranteed.

 

I think I'll stick with either Biomancy, or a lesser known discipline you've completely forgot, Telepathy. ;)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I didn't forget about Telepathy at all -- I just don't like it.  Too many of its powers don't seem especially useful in a Marine-heavy metagame (like mine).  Hallucination and Invisibility are both useful -- especially Invisibility -- but they require that we take the rather expensive Epistolary upgrade if we want any hope of using them.  Terrify and Dominate force Leadership checks (and in a MEQ-heavy arena, most of those will be passed).  Puppet Master sounds handy, but the nature of focused witchfires means that if you roll too high on your psychic check, you might not get to fire that melta or plasma or lascannon you wanted.  Psychic Shriek can net you some decent kills, but 3d6 on average is a 10.  Compared to a MEQ squad's Ld of 9 (with sergeant, or 8 if we're talking Grey Hunters) you'll get one (or two) wounds out of it.  At 12", that means you're inside rapid fire and charge range, so you'll probably only get one chance to use it one way or another.

 

Neither Telepathy nor Telekinesis particularly impress me; nor does Pyromancy, and I feel that Biomancy is even a pretty distant second in utility to Divination which for some odd reason we (meaning C:SM) can't take (despite every other Loyal Marine 'dex being able to).

 

The point of this exercise was determine ahead of time which powers are actually worth keeping if any of us ever choose to try Telekinesis.  Which I'm considering doing for gits and shiggles the next time I'm in a non-tournament game.  Also, I made a few edits in my original post -- a couple of little ideas about certain powers that popped into my head over the last hour or so.

[corlinjewell]

Psychic Shriek:

As you said though, average roll on a 3d6 is 10, which if nothing else grants you one kill against an MEQ squad. But when it works, oh man, does it hurt.  Especially because it does not matter what armor your wearing or how good of cover you are in.  I've had a game that I thought I was dominating one time when suddenly I rolled a 15 on a psychic shriek test on a tactical squad.  Suddenly, a unit that I thought was my ace in the hole was down to 4 members that were subsequently wiped out in the ensuing assault phase that they otherwise should have had no problem dealing with.

On the other hand, assail won't likely be causing any unsaved wounds against marines, and most combat monsters will just take a look out sir test in order to negate the strikedown effects.  When I finally have to give up my beloved Avenger, I will be taking biomacy or telepathy I think

[DarkGuard]

With Telepathy, even it's Leadership powers can be handy. For example, Dominate can force 3 leadership tests in one turn, it's likely they won't be able to do one at least one action.

 

It's not great, but we're not left with a lot of options as we can't take Divination. I just don't understand why we can't take it either.

 

At the moment, I think the best idea is allying in Battle Brothers who can use it, but that doesn't really help purists who don't want to ally.

 

I like OM and all, but the inconsistency of that table means I'd likely not go for it. Still, GoI and the Force Dome like power are still decent, so it's only really Shockwave and the other shooting power you don't want. Not bad odds of getting one useful power I suppose.

[Zombie P]

I was playing in a modified version of kill team and faced off against a DA librarian with dominate. He really neutralized my Comb-Melta marine gunning for an ID. I haven't experimented with it yet because of my tournament list built around GoI and my passion for Biomancy. 

 

I might get a few friendly games in and see how it goes...

 

ZP

[infornography]

Assail is terrible.  If strikedown were something you could rely on that would be one thing, but it quite frankly is not.  And don't forget it is a beam attack, that strength diminishes with each subsequent hit.

 

The rulebook does state that no stat ever goes above 10.  I see no reason to believe that does not apply to crush.  It's randomness makes it unreliable and therefore unimpressive.

 

Gate of Infinity is as always, great.  It is a wonderful way of getting your terminators to the enemy if you needed to get to a secondary target ASAP.

 

Objuration mechanicum is great!  It can affect a flyer without having to worry about that whole snapfire thing.  that should not be underestimated as sometimes that last glance is all you need.

 

Shockwave is straight up terrible.  just ... terrible.

 

Telekine dome is a great power, but of limited utility to space marines who have no notable lack of saves.  Can be used to make a TOUGH AS NAILS land raider though.

 

And Vortex of Doom.  I have no idea why GW thought this needed to be warp charge 2.  It is TERRIBLE as a warp charge 2.  It has enough downsides (range and accidentally exploding yourself and your unit) that at warp charge 1 it would have been only decent, but at warp charge 2 it is just a complete waste. 

 

 

My assessment of TK is that if you already have a power you like from biomancy and you want to try something interesting for your second epistolary power, then TK could be a fun fallback, but it has so many terrible or mediocre powers that it is extremely risky for you to take your only or both powers from.  I probably wouldn't bother.  I consider both telepathy and biomancy to be far better options for space marines.  If the primaris power were not in fact the worst primaris power of any set, it would be a better pick, but half the powers are pretty bad and the primaris isn't even that good of a fallback. 

 

I'll pass.

[Grey Mage]

All strengths cap at 10, its part of the definition for characteristics sadly.

[Forza St. Pauli]

This is quiet an interesting discussion here :)

 

Recently I’ve been thinking a lot about using librarians with the new rules. But regarding the current point cost for our librarians (and the epistolary upgrade) IMO it only makes sense using them if you choose the powers from the current codex (spending 150 points for two randomly chosen psychic powers is not bargain).

 

I’m still hoping that divination powers will be an option in the upcoming C:SM, but if it doesn’t I will definitely going for telekinesis and biomancy. Anything else doesn’t seem to be very reliable...

[nurglez]

in regards to puppet master, while its not great vs a unit of troops, try it vs a vehicle or MC (such as the riptide), then its slightly better :D

[Stickeh]

I've been playing around with Biomancy recently and had moderate success despite the awful primaris. This might be in part to people expecting the stock book powers from C:SM, but I think that results 1, 2, 3 and 5 in particular are great for a TDA libby. 4 and 6 are less stellar, but both better than smite and all only 1 warp charge. 

 

Telepathy has some pretty strong powers, dominate and puppet master being personal highlights but the only poor choice for us being mental fortitude (ATSKNF making it redundant), the primaris is still better than smite as well.

 

Personally I can't see myself taking telekinesis over either of these disciplines, the only reason I currently take GoI or Force Dome is the fact I can choose them and tailor a force around their use, the substitutes for these powers in the BRB can't be reliably taken, and the rest of the powers here just aren't hot enough to justify the risk compared to the other two disciplines I mentioned. Crush is far too unreliable, GoI is good, objuration mechanicum is ok if a bit siuational, shockwave is laughable, telekine dome is good and vortex of doom is awful.

[infornography]

Why does everyone think smite is bad?  It is S4 AP 2.  It is good at dealing with terminators and other 2+ saves.  It isn't great by any means, but AP 2 is nothing to turn your nose up at.

[corlinjewell]

Why does everyone think smite is bad?  It is S4 AP 2.  It is good at dealing with terminators and other 2+ saves.  It isn't great by any means, but AP 2 is nothing to turn your nose up at.

 

Its because there are so many rolls between declaring it and killing stuff.  First off, you have to take the psychic test, then the enemy can deny the witch, then you have to hit with BS 4 (which is why I would rather have BS 5 and WS 4 than the other way around), then you have to wound, and then they can still take their invulnerable save (which many 2+ armor wearers have).

[Disruptor_fe404]

 

Recently I’ve been thinking a lot about using librarians with the new rules. But regarding the current point cost for our librarians (and the epistolary upgrade) IMO it only makes sense using them if you choose the powers from the current codex (spending 150 points for two randomly chosen psychic powers is not bargain).

 

Actually, Codex: Space Marines gets two rolls regardless of Epistolary.

 

Unlike the Dark Angels, who only get to roll once with their cheaper Librarian.

[DarkGuard]

Compared to the other powers we get in the Codex it's just not that good. It's acceptable as a Primaris Power, but I wouldn't choose it if I had a choice. On average you'll only kill one Terminator etc, and you can get similar results from sticking Avenger on top of a clustered unit.

[infornography]

Like I said, it isn't great, but it is certainly better than hemorrhage and not too shabby as primaris powers go. 

 

Though I would take any other biomancy power over smite, I would definitely rather have smite than Hemorrhage.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Should I make a Biomancy thread similar to this one?  Unlike Telekinesis, which is all theory since I never used it I have used Bio quite a bit, so I could provide insight from experience rather than brainstorming.

[Forza St. Pauli]

Should I make a Biomancy thread similar to this one?  Unlike Telekinesis, which is all theory since I never used it I have used Bio quite a bit, so I could provide insight from experience rather than brainstorming.

Yes please! I really like those kind of threads :)

[DarkGuard]

That would be good DEF, it'd be nice to see another Tactica project. One for Telepathy would also be good.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'll see what I can do.

[Stickeh]

Maybe we could have a general 'Librarian Tacticia' devoted not just to the psychic disciplines, but how people might build a force to maximise their use?

[Forza St. Pauli]

That seems to be a good idea, but I think it's better to wait until the new new C:SM comes out.

[WarriorFish]

That is a better idea but would take longer to forge of course. If it concentrated on the BRB powers then it shouldn't matter that we'll get a new codex as any changes it might cause could easily be added in.

 

I've not used my Librarians much in 6th and I wish to change that so such a topic would be very interesting to read so I look forward to it :)

[Chrysaor the Giant]

Just looking at things here, I wanted to note that the Strikedown rule says specifically unsaved wound, so it definitely only works if the target actually takes the wound (or FNPs it). Makes Assail rather completely useless.

 

Objuration Mechanicum I love, and both Gate of Infinity and Vortex of Doom are things with which any marine player is going to be very familiar. Telekine Dome is also a really fantastic spell. So Telekinesis is 4/6 pretty great powers. Problem is, you can't plan around your powers when you roll on the chart, and a couple of these really benefit from advance notice. Having a Primaris as terrible as Assail is almost a death knell for the whole set, unfortunately. I'd say the same exact thing of Pyromancy. There are good powers available, but if you roll a bad one, you're just sort of  :cuss -ed.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Read Strikedown again, brother.  Page 43 of the little BGB: "...suffers one or more unsaved Wounds or passes one or more saving throws..."  I can't imagine how you missed that, since it's in the same sentence.