Hyaenidae Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 The Heresy bug bit me. Though the build will be slow slow slow, I would like to make a Pre-Heresy army, based on a Company whose ranks are still full of Terrans. After much debate, I've narrowed my thoughts down to two Legions I would like to represent, though I'm having a hard time deciding. Terran Raven Guard: More specifically, the 29th Company, led by Captain Torisian. Yeah, that's the poor fella that got gunned down by the Word Bearers in The First Heretic. For some reason, the fact that Torisian was wearing a regal blue cloak always stuck out in my mind, since it seemed so out of place amongst a group of warriors known for stealth. The simple answer, to me, is that not all of the Raven Guard truly embraced the doctrines of their father, and may have fought in a more conventional sense until the tragedy on the fields of Istvaan; maybe relics of the Legion who never could wrap their heads around asymmetrical warfare, and were respectfully reassigned to a rare siege company within the Legion. This would also explain why they were at the forefront of the Raven Guards' push across the killing fields, and why they had to pull back first (such formations not always understanding the concept of munition conservation, lol). In my head, I see the black heraldry we are all used to, with bright honour markings, frescos across shoulder plates, icons hanging from royal blue ropes, brilliant siege mantlets, and golden Raptor Imperialis and siege of Luna markings picked out in white marble. Kings of the battlefield, all. Poor buggers never saw it coming. Terran White Scars: This idea is formed more from my own heritage. Though I am an American to the core, I am very proud of my various ancestery; mostly Irish and Scot, but also Meshkwahkihaki, or Fox tribe to the layman. So, I would like to make a Fox Brotherhood of the White Scars, a force of foot Marines laden with feathers and fox tails for purity seals, warpaint across bare faces. Tomahawks, war clubs, bone knives, and spears would grace the hands or belt of every warrior, and the usual jagged red scars across white heraldry would be replaced by red markings more fitting for their own traditions. The rest of the White Scars, for the most part, would embrace their distant cousins, and they would have much in common, but the Foxes distaste for the "iron horse" would mark them out forever as outsiders. So, what'cha think? Who should I go with? Votes: Raven Guard: 5 1/2 White Scars: 14 1/2 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqui Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Both from a personal point of view and given the admittedly limited knowledge I have of you, I'd go for White Scars. The conversion possibilities are enormous, and I can understand why you're proud of your roots. Whilst mine aren't as exotic as yours (English, Scottish, Eire/Southern Irish and Welsh), I'm proud of mine as much as you are of yours. I did a quick search of Meshkwahkihaki and like most Native American/Mexican (if that's the correct term) cultures, its dying out The ldea of a Raven Guard force as you described is cool, but the thought of a White Scar force taken in a different direction (i.e. not the Mongol/Oriental touch) with an added 1000Heathens touch is very interesting Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3394962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted June 16, 2013 Author Share Posted June 16, 2013 One for the Scars. I'd hardly call myself "exotic", lol, but your point is taken. And yes, my tribe has suffered in the past, but we are stronger now than we have been in a long time, and are beyond the threat of fading out like so many others. Time will tell, of course, but we will persevere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3394967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaced Hulk Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 The White Scars. I've always found the 40K Scars to be a little bit one dimensional, their emphasis on bikes and speed to be limiting in a universe where they might be called upon to prowl through the ruins of a hive city, or board an enemy warship, or fight in any number of environments where bikes simply aren't practical. The idea of an infantry based White Scars force, particularly with the iconography, weapons etc you described is a really interesting concept. Have you read the short story 'Little Horus' by Dan Abnett? It features a White Scars Kill Team laying a trap for the Sons of Horus officers during the siege of an Imperial City. Even though they only appear right at the end, it still manages to present them as far more tactically flexible (and dangerous) than the usual Scars image of a Mongol based Legion/Chapter. Skilled, deadly hunters, rather than just mounted cavalry. That's the same sort of image that came to mind when I read your description Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Based upon your description I vote for the Raven Guard, I like both legions but I think your idea for your RG force is superb. Good luck with whatever one you do! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMagnus Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 I vote for Raven Guard. I like your idea for the colours and most RG armies I have seen are very dark and dull so it will be good to see some life in them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Terran White Scars: This idea is formed more from my own heritage. Though I am an American to the core, I am very proud of my various ancestery; mostly Irish and Scot, but also Meshkwahkihaki, or Fox tribe to the layman. So, I would like to make a Fox Brotherhood of the White Scars, a force of foot Marines laden with feathers and fox tails for purity seals, warpaint across bare faces. Tomahawks, war clubs, bone knives, and spears would grace the hands or belt of every warrior, and the usual jagged red scars across white heraldry would be replaced by red markings more fitting for their own traditions. The rest of the White Scars, for the most part, would embrace their distant cousins, and they would have much in common, but the Foxes distaste for the "iron horse" would mark them out forever as outsiders. I remember the Dark Angels in the fluff recruited from some worlds with Native American-like people (see the short story and comic Deathwing). However, I felt that didn't really mesh very with the secret monastic knights vibe of the DA. Native Americans are descended from peoples who migrated from Mongolia/Siberia. Their share some elements, like shamanism. Seems like an interesting idea to have a brotherhood of Native American-themed terran White Scars Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyshift Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 I'd vote for the Native American influenced White Scars for the awesome modelling opportunities it would give you. Rule of cool, always. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Traben Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 I vote for the Native American influenced White Scars. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 BOTH. Seriously, both of your ideas sound awesome. Use the Allies system or something, but go for broke, man! Coming from a similar heritage (German instead of Scot and my Native American ancestor was of the Cherokee (I believe my grandfather narrowed it down to the Wolf tribe)),if I had to choose one it would be your White Scars. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted June 16, 2013 Author Share Posted June 16, 2013 The White Scars. I've always found the 40K Scars to be a little bit one dimensional, their emphasis on bikes and speed to be limiting in a universe where they might be called upon to prowl through the ruins of a hive city, or board an enemy warship, or fight in any number of environments where bikes simply aren't practical. The idea of an infantry based White Scars force, particularly with the iconography, weapons etc you described is a really interesting concept. Have you read the short story 'Little Horus' by Dan Abnett? It features a White Scars Kill Team laying a trap for the Sons of Horus officers during the siege of an Imperial City. Even though they only appear right at the end, it still manages to present them as far more tactically flexible (and dangerous) than the usual Scars image of a Mongol based Legion/Chapter. Skilled, deadly hunters, rather than just mounted cavalry. That's the same sort of image that came to mind when I read your description I have read the story, it's in my top ten all-time favorite 40k stories. Abnett has really hit his stride with the Heresy books, I haven't disliked a single 30k story of his yet. Yeah, his description of the Scars in that book was pretty sweet, and It was nice to read about the Khan's sons not running around on jetbikes,lol. Vote annotated, thanks man. Based upon your description I vote for the Raven Guard, I like both legions but I think your idea for your RG force is superb. Good luck with whatever one you do! Glad you liked! Added your vote. I vote for Raven Guard. I like your idea for the colours and most RG armies I have seen are very dark and dull so it will be good to see some life in them. Yeah, the thought of a Raven Guard siege army was so deliciously strange, it inflames the creative parts of my mind; we'll see how this vote comes out. Your vote is added, man. Thanks! I remember the Dark Angels in the fluff recruited from some worlds with Native American-like people (see the short story and comic Deathwing). However, I felt that didn't really mesh very with the secret monastic knights vibe of the DA. Native Americans are descended from peoples who migrated from Mongolia/Siberia. Their share some elements, like shamanism. Seems like an interesting idea to have a brotherhood of Native American-themed terran White Scars I am actually old enough to remember those stories coming out, lol. Agreed, though; the pairing of the two cultures never felt right, and I'm kinda glad that it quietly died out. Funny you mention shamanism, I have some great ideas for that. Vote added, and thank you. I'd vote for the Native American influenced White Scars for the awesome modelling opportunities it would give you. Rule of cool, always. I'm never one to shy from the RoC, lol. Vote added, thank you! I vote for the Native American influenced White Scars. Added, thanks! BOTH. Seriously, both of your ideas sound awesome. Use the Allies system or something, but go for broke, man! Coming from a similar heritage (German instead of Scot and my Native American ancestor was of the Cherokee (I believe my grandfather narrowed it down to the Wolf tribe)),if I had to choose one it would be your White Scars. I'll do both, and split it into a half-vote. You're of the Tsalagi people? Awesome man, always cool to run into another son of the Nation. Oseyo, dinadanvtli. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Heathens do some scars!!!!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 White Scars, they'd mean a lot more to you than the Raven Guard would and may end up causing you to put more effort than you intended on them. After you have finished your Astral Claws first though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 I'm with Cormac, do both. If there can be a mix of some Iron Hands and White Scars, then why not some Raven Guard and the White Scars mixed together instead? EDIT: Maybe instead of a fully mix army, just one or two squads of Raven Guard while the "army" is still White Scars. Either way, I look forward to the final product. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Arcturus Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Dude, go for the crows...Always Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 I'm afraid all I know is that my grandfather's grandfather was adopted by the doctor who delivered him, who also had the mother (full-blooded Cherokee) admitted into what amounted to an insanity ward in those days, for being an Indian, and had the father, a Caucasian of unknown descent, run out of the state (modern day West Virginia) for consorting with their kind. I still find it strange that someone with such prejudices (though common at the time) could adopt and raise (by all accounts lovingly) what would amount to in his eyes a half-breed. Life is full of fascinating contradictions. But then, my so-many-Greats grandmother was known for riling up anti-American sentiments, inciting small pockets of rebellion. So perhaps by the standards of that time she might have been a little crazy and the father was apparently a layabout, vagabond. So perhaps the Doc was in the right. Which is why I'm an Irish-German with a Welsh surname. You've instilled a seed of curiosity in me, now I'm inclined to get a more full story from my grandfather. ANYWHO,I'm going to echo Kol's echo of mine. At least a squad or two of the Raven Guard. And an HQ to represent the Captain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiron Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 I would choose Raven Guard. But! If I would be in your shoes, having the same motivation as you have, I would definatelly took White Scars - Fox Brotherhood.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJB Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Tough call, I'm a fan of the Ravens, but you rarely see a decent White Scar army... Go with the Scars, looking at the quality of your previous models you'll have no problems doing them justice! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Man, I loooove the RG idea and am very keen to see some of that!!! However, im currently in the process of converting my Blood Hawks to a White Scars sucessor from Blood Angels (after a lot of soul seraching) and am having an absolute blast!!! - i've been able to work in a reliance on Orinthomancy with animistic/shamanistic belief. As for heritage,I like the idea of a nod to your people. My mothers people were Murray River(mob)from near Dungog, she was also adopted by my grandfather the doctor who delivered her - none of which will mean much except I also feel the need to commemorate there heritage in my plastic space men. So im going to create a chapter, decorated in native Australian designs and incorporating a lot of the mythic cycles of the region. TL;DR - 2 votes for Scars, 1 vote for Guard!!!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 The raven guard are often described as having native american feature's or at least corax was iirc so why not do the scar's idea with the raven gaurd just an idea. If not I vote scar's. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 Heathens do some scars!!!!!! Another Scars vote, thanks! White Scars, they'd mean a lot more to you than the Raven Guard would and may end up causing you to put more effort than you intended on them. After you have finished your Astral Claws first though Of course, lol. These guys (whichever are chosen) are so that I don't burn out on a single project, which I am guilty of repeatedly. Projects that don't speak to me often die out quickly, like my poor Reaver CSM's. I'm hoping that one of these will help keep me sane. Vote for the Scars added. I'm with Cormac, do both. If there can be a mix of some Iron Hands and White Scars, then why not some Raven Guard and the White Scars mixed together instead? EDIT: Maybe instead of a fully mix army, just one or two squads of Raven Guard while the "army" is still White Scars. Either way, I look forward to the final product. Highlighted your edit, because that's not a bad idea at all. A few adopted orphans, survivors of Istvaan who were separated from their broken Legions, would be very cool. Dammit, now my brain is really running full tilt, lol. Another split vote. Dude, go for the crows...Always Annotated, thanks! I'm afraid all I know is that my grandfather's grandfather was adopted by the doctor who delivered him, who also had the mother (full-blooded Cherokee) admitted into what amounted to an insanity ward in those days, for being an Indian, and had the father, a Caucasian of unknown descent, run out of the state (modern day West Virginia) for consorting with their kind. I still find it strange that someone with such prejudices (though common at the time) could adopt and raise (by all accounts lovingly) what would amount to in his eyes a half-breed. Life is full of fascinating contradictions. But then, my so-many-Greats grandmother was known for riling up anti-American sentiments, inciting small pockets of rebellion. So perhaps by the standards of that time she might have been a little crazy and the father was apparently a layabout, vagabond. So perhaps the Doc was in the right. Which is why I'm an Irish-German with a Welsh surname. You've instilled a seed of curiosity in me, now I'm inclined to get a more full story from my grandfather. ANYWHO,I'm going to echo Kol's echo of mine. At least a squad or two of the Raven Guard. And an HQ to represent the Captain. Without getting into topics I have no wish to discuss in a forum like this; I love my nation and would do anything to aid my country and it's people. My government I am wary of. I'll leave it at that. I would highly suggest you learn more about your family, man. When I got all my Grandfather's geneology work after he passed, I was enthralled with learning everything I could of my ancestry. It is one of the most rewarding aspects of my life, slowly unraveling the pasts of my forefathers. Your and Kol's idea is taken to heart, thank you. I would choose Raven Guard. But! If I would be in your shoes, having the same motivation as you have, I would definatelly took White Scars - Fox Brotherhood.. Wait, so which one you voting for? lol. Tough call, I'm a fan of the Ravens, but you rarely see a decent White Scar army... Go with the Scars, looking at the quality of your previous models you'll have no problems doing them justice! A vote for the Scars it is, and thank you for the compliment! Man, I loooove the RG idea and am very keen to see some of that!!! However, im currently in the process of converting my Blood Hawks to a White Scars sucessor from Blood Angels (after a lot of soul seraching) and am having an absolute blast!!! - i've been able to work in a reliance on Orinthomancy with animistic/shamanistic belief. As for heritage,I like the idea of a nod to your people. My mothers people were Murray River(mob)from near Dungog, she was also adopted by my grandfather the doctor who delivered her - none of which will mean much except I also feel the need to commemorate there heritage in my plastic space men. So im going to create a chapter, decorated in native Australian designs and incorporating a lot of the mythic cycles of the region. TL;DR - 2 votes for Scars, 1 vote for Guard!!!!! I like the idea of a native Aussie SM army, man; that would be gnarly as hell! Another vote for the scars! The raven guard are often described as having native american feature's or at least corax was iirc so why not do the scar's idea with the raven gaurd just an idea. If not I vote scar's. Where the hell they picked up that aspect is beyond me though, except that they have the name "raven". I always related the original RG Legion to more Germanic leanings, only going all stealthy when they were crippled. Even so, I want Terrans, and the more native aspects would have appeared later. Also, I want something unique to my army, so simply making an army with an aesthetic that many already apply to that army would be a bit boring to me. In any case, I'll take that as a Scars vote, thanks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 put me down for a mix vote: make one the parent army, and bring in a squad or two of the other. this way you can have your cake and eat it. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMagnus Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Wow, white scars are really taking the lead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 I vote Scars but I am biased because of my Lakota Sioux ancestry. How will you play them? Rules-wise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekim_Trub Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 I'm an avid fan of anything RG/Corax related....but I think the White Scars idea is a better one and will look phenomenal! You seem more motivated towards it as well, so you'll enjoy it more I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276921-the-raven-or-the-fox-picking-a-legion/#findComment-3395602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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