Dark Angels and their possible allies

[FarFromSam]

I didn't miss the point. I would rather die as a true son of the Lion than fall to the seduction of an ill earned victory. Some means don't justify the end. (okay, I'm done being stubborn :P )

 

I see the Dark Angels as pragmatic within certain parameters. I suppose we have to decide what those parameters are for ourselves. But It looks like GW/FW are pushing to make DA more tolerant/reasonable/relatable to us as players. The problem is is that they aren't, and it goes against pre established fluff. As utilitarian as we are, we should never ally with Xenos. (leave that to the red imitation angels) Such dealings draw suspicious eyes, or worse, create the opportunity to fail the Emperor again .

 

I don't doubt your tactical prowess brother gumbo. that is a sound strategy, but I worry for the chapters soul. Also could you imagine how easy it would be to manipulate us if the eldar knew of our secret? Yikes.

 

Typed from phone sorry for errors, thanks for the discussion!

[facmanpob]

You're not just being stubborn farfromsam, you are showing Grim Resolve ...... See what I did there?

 

*whistles* Heigh ho, heigh ho, off to chamber 42 I go ;)

[Retaliation]

I didn't miss the point. I would rather die as a true son of the Lion than fall to the seduction of an ill earned victory. Some means don't justify the end. (okay, I'm done being stubborn )

I see the Dark Angels as pragmatic within certain parameters. I suppose we have to decide what those parameters are for ourselves. But It looks like GW/FW are pushing to make DA more tolerant/reasonable/relatable to us as players. The problem is is that they aren't, and it goes against pre established fluff. As utilitarian as we are, we should never ally with Xenos. (leave that to the red imitation angels) Such dealings draw suspicious eyes, or worse, create the opportunity to fail the Emperor again .

I don't doubt your tactical prowess brother gumbo. that is a sound strategy, but I worry for the chapters soul. Also could you imagine how easy it would be to manipulate us if the eldar knew of our secret? Yikes.

Typed from phone sorry for errors, thanks for the discussion!

But would the eldar truly care about it? What could they do with it, tell a radical heretic inquisitor the truth? That would after all be the only one who would believe them. Why would such a "superior" species care about the concerns of the mon-keigh? They probably wouldn't even be able to understand why it's such a big deal.

Amusingly enough, the Unforgiven's secret is safest around xenos. Everyone other than the eldar aren't big enough schemers to even consider using that information against us.

[BigGumbo]

@farfromsam

 

Yes, OK ... It was me: I misread your first sentence... Sorry.

[FarFromSam]

Double post

[Dark_Master]

And yet we are quite happy letting little munchkin Xenos run around with some of our most precious relics ;-)

 

Have we ever defined what the watchers are?

 

DM

[Stormtrooper-VII]

And yet we are quite happy letting little munchkin Xenos run around with some of our most precious relics ;-)

Have we ever defined what the watcher what the watchers are?

I don't believe so but I don't think the Dark Angels would be so likely to tolerate their presence if they knew they were xenos, instead i think it would be more likely that the watchers were, in fact...Squats.

[facmanpob]

We need to remember though that its only the most senior members of the Inner Circle who even know of the existence of the Watchers.....its not like every Battle Brother gets to do a meet and greet with "our little friends" when they leave 10th Company....

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

None

 

my list would have the following pairing

Battle Brothers: Salamanders (in light of the new fluff.)

 

Alliance: SW, SM, BA, IG

 

Desperate alliance: GK, SoB

No alliance: CSM, Tyr, CD, DE, Eldar, Tau, Orks

Just what I would deem fluffy.

I know it's only hypothetical at this stage, because no Xenos Hunter codex exists, or will ever likely exist, but do you think they'd allie with that particular branch of the inquisition given that the we often send our battle brothers to serve as part of the Deathwatch.

[Jaminos]

I think they let people go to the Death Watch because they have no choice. If they went as far as to deny them I think they would only arouse more suspicion.

 

As for the watchers. No, they are the great mystery. I have read some solid theories as to what they "Might" be but nothing concrete. They are definitely not base line human. I have read theories that they might be a race native to Caliban whom served the Lion. But I doubt we will get to see what is under those robes.

 

All I know is that they get to lose that fancy helmet as I carefully cut it off the miniature and rebuild part of it and glue it to the base of Azrael. I got tired of my local members of my War mini club try and rules whore me. I would point to where the rule specifically state that the watcher is not a kill point and does not do anything except follow Azrael. Basically like a banner carrier who can not do anything and is only on the board as long as Azrael is.

 

Lastly its not only the senior members who know about them. At least it was that way in older editions. It's just that they were only seen in the company of the high Inner Circle. I read somewhere that on very rare occasion, a Watcher would start following a particular Space Marine and that they would usually be destined for great things.

 

You have to remember. It would be impossible to keep their presence a secret to the entire chapter. At least two Dark Angels have them coming along with them in battle. Hard to miss the 4 ft guy carrying the helm of your Primarch.

[Dark_Master]

We need to remember though that its only the most senior members of the Inner Circle who even know of the existence of the Watchers.....its not like every Battle Brother gets to do a meet and greet with "our little friends" when they leave 10th Company....

I'm not so sure, I think most DA would know they existed, kind of hard to miss the little guy following the Grandmaster about with the Lions Helm. [edit Ninja'd]

 

Although it would be funny if a newly out of 10th company Marine took a pot shot at one as he didn't know what it was.

 

I always liked the idea of them being warp manifestations of the DA guilt. But seeing they have been officially mentioned during the Horus Heresay, that scuppers that one.

 

DM

[facmanpob]

The problem is, it makes no sense for the DA to have unkillable Jawas running around the battlefield with them for 10,000 years without the Ordo Xenos or Ordo Malleus getting wind of it....so I manually edit out that bit of fluff....particularly as the reimagined Horus Heresy era Watchers in the Dark are exceptionally secretive..... :)

[MadMek83]

The problem is, it makes no sense for the DA to have unkillable Jawas running around the battlefield with them for 10,000 years without the Ordo Xenos or Ordo Malleus getting wind of it....so I manually edit out that bit of fluff....particularly as the reimagined Horus Heresy era Watchers in the Dark are exceptionally secretive.....

They probably have wiff but they cannot proove things. You know that The Rock has alot servitors and i mean A LOT. Its fluff based. And the number of servitors aren't there because The Rock has lots of squarefeets and needs dusting off often... Anyone who might have been gotten wiff is either turned into servitor or meets accident. I mean just failed neophytes do not add the sheer number of servitors, therefore we must assume it includes door to door sales people, people trying to sell their religion (though usually they are greeting: BURN HERETIC and roar of promethium based flame soaring their direction) ... and member of inquisition gotten too... nosy.

And one other thing: Dark Angels are THE FIRST LEGION, you do not go against the first legion with accusations or without evidences.

[Phoebus]

Going by the Aliies Matrix, these would be my thoughts:

 

I would treat the Black Templars, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, and Space Wolves factions as "Battle Brothers".

 

I know, I know, the Grey Knights are an arm of the Inquisition... but they are the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus. As such, I sincerely doubt the Grey Knights even interact with the handful (if that) of Inquisitors who have some reason to investigate the Dark Angels. Just as importantly, interaction with the Grey Knights would be remarkably rare for any chapter and would almost certainly revolve around an extremely desparate campaign against the worst enemies of Mankind. Even the staunchest member of the Inner Circle would beware refusing the Grey Knights in such a situation. It would be the surest way to invite unhealthy attention.

 

I would treat the Sisters of Battle as "Allies of Convenience". As unlikely as it would be for the Dark Angels to run into an Inquisitor tasked with investigating them, the Sisters of Battle are the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus. Suspicious behavior is one of those things that would set their alarms off. Additionally, I imagine one of the things the Sisters do no matter what is record their encounters with other factions and store them away for future use. Any temporary alliance with the Sisters of Battle would thus need to be made under controlled parameters.

 

I would consider the Eldar to be "Desperate Allies". I can only see the Dark Angels suffering xenos to live in very specific situations. The Eldar are a dying race, and they are as likely to aid the Imperium against a mutual foe as they are to use it as a sacrificial pawn. They are dangerous, though, and possess insidious psychic powers. I could see the Dark Angels opting to not slaughter them until a very dangerous mutual foe has first been destroyed... but I can't imagine any of the "pre-battle parlay and coordination" that I imagine informs the "Allies of Convenience" category.

 

The Tau are a tough choice. On the one hand, they are similar to the Eldar in that they are among the more "reasonable" xenos and fight the same enemies of the Imperium. On the other hand, though, they constantly encroach on the Imperium's domain, and have made it no secret that they aim to supplant Mankind. I can't see the Dark Angels standing for this. But would they be seen as the enemies below?

 

Chaos Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks, and Tyranids can fall under no category other than "Come the Apocalypse". I simply cannot imagine the Dark Angels tolerating these factions for any amount of time.

 

If it had been my Codex to write, I would have included an additional rule for "Hunting the Fallen". For example, if an objective involves either a known or suspected Fallen, there would be some sort of game effect wherein the Dark Angels press to gain their objective no matter the cost to their Allies.

[shabbadoo]

I don't think that the SW and the DA hate each others...

They fought together during all the great crusade so they know each other very well and complement very well too. After all Horus sent them so far because he feared them.

Sure, they fought together, and got on well enough...at least until Russ attacked The Lion, and The Lion punched out Russ.   After that incident the two Chapters hate each other, both sides seeing the actions of the others Primarch as the ultimate insult among allies; the only thing worse being outright betrayal.

 

So, yes, they actually do hate each other.  When working towards a common goal, the two Chapters will not work together so much as they try to outdo one another, so as the shame/belittle their rival.

[Phoebus]

That's not the end of the story, though. Background pieces from the same era go on to tell us that the Lion and Russ formally dueled more than once during the Great Crusade (after that brawl). Those duels later led to the two respecting each other, and, later, becoming friends. Their race to get to Terra occurred after that. Following their failure, the Lion blamed Russ, who bared his chest and invited his brother to strike him down. The Lion did so, but pulled his blade at the very last second. He stayed by Russ' bed until he awoke, and the two re-affirmed their brotherhood afterwards. Sadly, that was probably the last they saw of each other; the Lion soon left for Caliban and that was that. These stories were an older variation of Russ' disappearance, in which he told his warriors that he was leaving to find the Lion.

 

Granted, over the millennia the Dark Angels' aloofness and secrecy might have eroded the bonds that were established by their Primarchs, there's plenty of room for a relationship based on grudging respect (if nothing else).

 

EDIT:

 

Apparently, the FAQ that had held the sources for a lot of the above on this forum is no longer accessible. Some topics still reference it, though, and it would appear the 2nd Edition Space Wolf Codex and White Dwarf #233 (UK Edition) were the cited sources.

[Cactus]

Phoebus, thanks for the citation. I have WD 233 and the story that's referenced is two full pages! I'll re-read it and report back.

 

The 'hardline' position is still represented by the allies matrix, but not in the form of rules that say "thou shalt not...". It's in the narrative you create for your allied force. How about a farseer and a couple of squads of shuriken-spamming guardians? Use them as shock troops but don't expect them to survive a counter-attack. That's your 'rather let the alien die first' attitude given form on the tabletop. Don't take the term "allies" too literally. It doesn't mean they got together over drinks and signed a treaty etc, just that in this place, at this time, against this foe, they can settle their differences later.

 

[edit] Jaminos, I nearly choked myself laughing at the thought of Old Man Inquisitor and his unruly tenants! Can I propose the late Bill Pertwee for the role of OMI? And the Likely Lads (Rodney Bewes and James Bolam) as the Lion and Russ respectively.

[Phoebus]

Cactus, if you don't mind, shoot me a message once you get a chance to peruse it. I've only seen citations and summaries of the articles... never the actual thing. I'd like to know if the real deal says something different. :)

[Jaminos]

I would like to have a copy myself. I try to avoid relying to much on the Warhammer Wiki a for facts. Its great for general information and summaries but not hard facts and that is what I am looking for at this point. If I find any contradictory information. It will change.my.mind. Even if it affirms the alliance between the Space Wolves and Dark Angels. I eat this kind of stuff up. It's just a shame that there are not many Dark Angels books out there. And the ones that are, are only ok. I liked Angels of Darkness but the story is really self contained. 

 

There is a distinct lack of information about how the Dark Angels Handel other chapters when the Fallen are not around.

[BigGumbo]

@Cactus

 

Well put. That's where I was coming from re Allies too...

[JeffJedi]

Don't forget that WH40K has flying cyborg babies fluttering around battlefields along with servo skulls and everything else. I'm sure the Watchers barely get noticed.

[Azradia_the_Undying]

I'd have to say the blood angels would make a good ally for them. Fluff wise, they fought together after the heresy, pushing back the traitors and putting down any opposition that dared cross them. They both have secrets that they don't want the imperium to find out about, as well as both of their primarchs sacrificing their lives for the imperium (yes, i know the lion is still alive shut up).

 

Game wise, the blood angels fast melee oriented units nicely compliment the slower, more powerful dark angels (referring mainly to deathwing) If you'd like a sample list just let me know :D

[Jaminos]

I am sure this has been adressed before but I noticed that in the latest Codex that the Dark Angels that they use human serfs commonly for duties they can't be bothered with. I could have sworn that the previous codexes stated that they almost souly use servitors because they are no risk to the secrets the Dark Angels keep. Why would they have a sudden change  of heart?

[Nathiel_DarkAngels]

Seriously... Space Wolves... Fluff wise they are the closest Imperial organisation to DA... Logan and ragnar know a little about the Hunt for the fallen too...

However DA cooperate with any other Imperial organisation except the inquisition... And they refuse to ally with Aliens or subhuman unless in great danger...

So the DA allies table should be...

Battle Brothers: SW, SM, BA, IG

Alliance: GK, SoB

Desperate alliance: Eldar, Tau, Orks

No alliance: CSM, Tyr, CD, DE

this is IMHO

 

Battle Brothers: SW, SM, BA

Alliance: GK, SoB,  IG

(Very) Desperate alliance: Eldar, Tau

No alliance: CSM, Tyr, CD, DE, Orks

 

Or Better: 

 

Battle Brothers: SW, SM, BA

Alliance: GK, SoB,  IG

Kill, Kill, Kill: Eldar, Tau, CSM, Tyr, CD, DE, Orks

[HsojVvad]

I think we might be forgetting something here. I the OP playing fluffy? Also if playing fluffy, what is he playing with? If there is no Deathwing or big Kahunas in there, nobody would know about the Fallen. (I thought Ravenwing knew about the Fallen but no so sure now if they do or not).

 

So if nobody knows about the Fallen in his force, then they should be able to ally with who ever is allowed legally, because there would be no fear of leaving in the heat of battle because they "had to chase Fallen" since there would be nobody there to give the orders.

 

I still can't fathom how 90% of the DA (or what ever is the percentage) who don't know about the Fallen feel about leaving in the midst of a battle and leaving who they were sworn to protect left to die? Yes I know about following orders and what not, but doing it time and time again, wouldn't they be questioning what is going on? I mean those kind of actions are not becoming of a Space Marine, let alone being a Dark Angel the first ever.