Slaanesh stuff is the suck?

[Julgolax]

I'm probably going to catch flakk for this but I wanna ask, why does the Mark of Slaanesh and the Icon of Excess not work well for all but a few select units? The last time I saw a Slaanesh list that DIDN'T include all noise marines and a mounted/JP lord... I don't think I have.

 

Does GW purposefully gradate the gods? Tzeentch < Slaanesh < Khorne < Nurgle?

 

I don't even want to go into Tzeentch, mainly because I don't bother with that god, but Slaanesh just feels weak...

 

What's up with +1 Initiative and that's it? Why not +1 WS or +1 Attack as well for a few extra points?

 

FNP is pretty good but you'd think it would pass around -1 Initiative to enemies as well, for 30pts per squad. Why not?

[Grey Mage]

You know, youd catch less flack for things like this is youd use less juvenile language.

[arkagl]

Your problem is that Noise Marines are the best troop unit in the Chaos Codex and up there in over all troop choice. 

 

I know what you mean though I use to play Khorne back in 3rd/4th Edition and was brutal with them out of the 3.5 codex. I've come back to them for casual play but not really for tournament play.

 

I think the problem is that you waste the points on the MoS and IoE on units that don't need it. In my army only a squad of havoc with lascannons have both other than my Noise Marines and my Lord. Also Noise Marines are cheapest of all cult marines. Back in 3.5 when there was a bunch of wargear options like there is now good lists didn't tool out their units fully so they could get more units in their lists. That concept still applies thats why people just take Cultist and Spawns without marks. I mean if zombies cost any more points I'm sure people wouldn't take them either.

 

The order so far has gone Khorne>Slaanesh>Nurgle>Tzeentch. 3.5 Khorne Lists, Lash Slaanesh Lists, FNP Epdemius List, and now. But with all said I've been super effective with my Slaanesh list against a couple the Necron Lists and Tau lists.

[minigun762]

Slaaneshi units are fairly balanced this edition. In a world that is Marine and likely Eldar heavy, Int5 can be very important.

If all you fight is Tau and Necron, then yes it's not as impressive.

 

That said, I would recommend a more constructive format for you're next post because it distracts from your message.

[Julgolax]

I didn't realize that the word "suck" was juvenile, or that it even mattered which way I put it. Forum Nazi alert!

 

I suppose it's true that against certain armies or unit types, a higher initiative is more beneficial than others, but that does still leave me with the problem of "having" to do an Emperor's Children type force with Noise Marines and such to get the full benefit of these bonuses rather than increasing the variety of bonuses to regular units.

 

Namely, if I wanted to do a Slaaneshi themed renegades force, giving +1 Initiative to Chaos Marines, Chosen Terminators, Chosen Marines, and Cultists would ultimately cost a lot more than what the units would probably end up achieving. 

[Phytoon]

In the themed scenario you described, you don't actually have to give them the mark or icon if you don't want to. That'd just be a waste of points on things that absolutely don't need them. For example, I run a Slaanesh-themed army, but I have unmarked bikers and nurgle-marked obliterators. The only real limitation is the one you place on yourself.

 

Nurgle-marked armies are so good right now because you can throw them into a blender and they'll pop out just fine, especially plague marines (there's a reason they're so expensive) because of their stock Feel-No-Pain. And while Tzeenth-marked guys aren't that great unless they already have an invulnerable save, the fact that it just grants them a 6+ if they don't already have one is pretty nice. It at least gives them a chance. However, that's definitely better used on some of the daemon or terminator units to give them a 4+ invuln.

 

And granted, while I don't particularly like Khorne, he's probably the best choice for armies that want to rip and tear.

 

Honestly, the whole disadvantage the Slaanesh guys have, if any, is even if they go first, there's not that great a chance they'll kill enough enemies to save themselves in the next step. And in many cases, like the obliterators, the +1 initiative does absolutely nothing for them, because they only have power fists and they are specifically forbidden to perform sweeping advances. I mean, it does have its niche uses, like protecting from Jaws of the World Wolf or blinding effects, but it's so conditional that it's pretty much not worth taking. 

 

And in regard to giving the mark to cultists, why would you even bother upgrading them? They have no survivability other than their sheer numbers, and upgrades are just points you could be reallocating to get more of them. IMO you should build an effective army the way you want it, then worry about what marks you want on things. However, take that as you will, this is the first edition of WH40k I've played, and I'm still fairly new to it.

[Azadul]

Honestly, I think you are underestimating the effectiveness of the Slaanesh Icon. It is 30pts. Gives you Feel No Pain (5+). If it saves 2 marines, it has payed for itself. Also, on a standard marines, +1 initiative is excellent.

 

The majority of armies out there are marine armies, being able to  strike first in combat is a HUGE deal. You get to take out their models before they get to attack , reducing the punishment that will come your way. Add on top of that the FNP from the banner and you have a great unit for attrition warfare.

 

The advantage that CSMs have is that they can have large unit sizes. So if you want to make the most of the 30pt banner, have a large squad which walks forward toward important objectives, and is able to stay there.

 

You say khorne has the best icon, rage and counter-attack. Sure its great. But it relies on getting them into close combat, which means the squad is going to be considerably smaller as they have no resilience beyond T4 and 3+, which really isn't that much in the current meta.

Although these things may seem bad on paper, in practice, against a variety of enemies, they are proven to be very effective.

[Emperors Immortals]

I've played Blod Angels for years, FnP and I5 on a marine kitte for assault is absolutly killer. BA assault squads with a priest were nearly unstoppable.

 

I take one foot unit of tooled up Slaaneshi marines every CSM list, thye are that good. Chosen fit this bill very nicely.

[Grey Mage]

I didn't realize that the word "suck" was juvenile, or that it even mattered which way I put it. Forum Nazi alert!

No Nazis here- youre free to phrase it in such a manner if you like. But dont complain about people giving you flack for posts when you cant word them in a manner that doesnt suck.

[GenEngineer]

On the contrary, I'd say that Slaanesh came out this edition in one of the stronger positions. The initiative doesn't seem like much, but every enemy killed before they attack is one less attack coming your way. It's more situational than Toughness or attacks, but against Marines and other initiative 4 units, it makes a big difference.

 

Furthermore, adding on the FnP makes them hardier than most marines, and actually somewhere between Marines and Terminators for their saves. Feel no Pain is one of the better ways to keep something alive, and on a 10 man squad getting it and the MoS amounts to 5 points a model; easily worth it.

 

Now for the Slaanesh specific units: Noise Marines are king. A block of them can crush any horde army, and the only real weaknesses are against marines and the like, where that +1 initiative really comes into play. Lucius seems a bit weak in comparison, but when out with assa,ult oriented marines he will mulch a fair few threats.

 

But the real reason I believe Slaanesh came out on top is the synergy between it's cult units and it's daemons. Look at the other gods; theire cults and their daemons perform lretty much the same role, little to no difference. No weaknesses are shored up, just a bit more in what they already had an advantage in. Now look at Slaanesh. His Noise Marines are ranged and hard to kill, thanks to the icon. Weakness would be Close Combat, where they can't make fullest use of their fancy guns (though they're still no slouch), general imobikity to get the most of their firepower, and 2+ saves. Switch to Daemonettes. Their advantages are being very mobile, close combat oriented, amd with rending can handle terminators like nobody's business. Their weakness? Fragile and wortgless at range. A brief glance reveals that each side shores up the other really well, meaning that a themed army using allies is actually in the best position out of all the gods.

[Phytoon]

 

Furthermore, adding on the FnP makes them hardier than most marines, and actually somewhere between Marines and Terminators for their saves. Feel no Pain is one of the better ways to keep something alive, and on a 10 man squad getting it and the MoS amounts to 5 points a model; easily worth it.

 

 

I never thought about it that way. I've always used Noise Marines as the standard for a Slaaneshi assault squad, but CSMs are still surprisingly cheap even after factoring in the icon. I can take a ten-man squad with two flamers and a lightning claw for only 215 points, and they'll all have I5 and FNP. Pretty Sweet.

 

One of my favorite things to give MoS to has been my bikes, but it's hard to justify also giving them the icon because they're quite expensive at that point, and there's only 3 of them to start. Now that I've upgraded my squad, however, I think I might start doing that. Since I run my Chaos Lord on a bike, he'll also benefit from the icon if he's in combat, so it seems like a no-brainer.

[Bonzi]

The biggest thing Noise Marines have over MoS Marines is 'Fearless'.  That one thing negates a big weakness for basic CSM which are far more unreliable in LD tests than their SM counterparts.  

 

Now if you throw a Lord into a large MoS squad, get the extra CCWs and the FnP banner you will get a Slaanesh unit that is better than its NM equivalent.

[Deus de Mortalis]

Bonzi, on 21 Jun 2013 - 09:22, said:

Now if you throw a Lord into a large MoS squad, get the extra CCWs and the FnP banner you will get a Slaanesh unit that is better than its NM equivalent.

If you kit out regular chaos marines with the mark of slaanesh and an extra CCW, they come out to only one point cheaper vs noise marines with an extra ccw. 17 vs 18. That one extra point is for fearless. Then there are also the weapons choices. For a CC squad, the doom siren will be amazing. But overall, there isn't a right or wrong choice between the two, and it depends on the situation. But I think more often than not, the noise marines will win out, although they are slightly more expensive.