Giving up Krak Grenades to gain Burning Brand of Skalathrax

[WG Capt. Iagn Thunderclaw]

Can I exchange the Krak / Frag Grenades for my Sorcerer in order to gain the Burning Brand?

 

[Ethrion]

No, you can swap one weapon for the brand of skalathrax; either pistol or force weapon. Frak and krak grenades aren't a valid option to swap out.

[*Furyou Miko]

They are weapons though, so maybe. There was a huge debate about this over in OR a few months ago. I can't remember what the outcome was but you should go look it up.

[Grey Mage]

Grenades are wargear that can be used as a weapon in game, not weapons you can swap out.

[WG Capt. Iagn Thunderclaw]

Under the weapons description section in the back of the BRB it lists both type of grenades as weapons in the same catagory as the beloved space marine bolter.  I dont see the difference

[kdruthless]

The most common interpretation will be that you have to give up your force weapon or your pistol for the burning brand, and I think that that's a good way to do it that will annoy nobody that you are playing against. Its not cheeky, and I think exchanging grenades for the brand is, frankly.

 

Personally, I'd drop the pistol: none of them are as good as the burning brand and your force weapon can get handy in combat

[*Furyou Miko]

Brand doesn't give you an extra attack to use the force weapon with, though.

[Freakiq]

While technically correct depending on where you look this feels a bit like easter egg hunting.

[WG Capt. Iagn Thunderclaw]

It might be "cheeky" and the biggest easter egg around.  But my meta is a "power" gaming group.  Taking at least double  sometimes triple MC and Flyer out there. 

 

I play pure TS in 9 man squads with an occassionaly Tzeentch Daemon Prince or Tzeentch Herald with minor daemons also in 9 model squads of some kind as an ally.  Fluff wise based on the old traditional TSons we dont get the shiny heavy weapons Havocs or obliterator as a pure TS force, that leaves me with TS, vehicle heavy support choices. Ive fudged a little by including a Helldrake in my FOC if only because there was no such thing as a flyer in the old dex. 

 

But now with the Burning Brand Rule stating we exchange one weapon for the artificact, the RAW will allow us to loose the krak grenade since it is described as a weapon in the back of the BRB.

 

Im hoping the Brand gives a little more credibility to my traditional TS force.

[Ethrion]

Frag and krak are wargear like a sigil or familiar, not a weapon class. You can replace either melee or ranged weapons for other items; grenades dont fall under either of those categories. Grenades might have a stat line in the reference section along with weapons like bolters but that is for convenience and consistency not because they are weapons that can be swapped out.

[WG Capt. Iagn Thunderclaw]

Frag and krak are wargear like a sigil or familiar, not a weapon class. You can replace either melee or ranged weapons for other items; grenades dont fall under either of those categories. Grenades might have a stat line in the reference section along with weapons like bolters but that is for convenience and consistency not because they are weapons that can be swapped out.

 

 

Pg 61 BRB - Grenades can be used as melee weapons (this is a continuation of the BRB section of Weapons beginning on pg 50)

Pg 415 BRB - Krak Grenade is listed as a weapon along with every other weapon in the 40k Universe

Pg 45 Codex CSM - Boltgun and Force Weapon are listed as wargear

Pg 91 Codex CSM - Artifact listing a model can replace one weapon

 

RAW - Pg 91 where does it say that you must replace either a melee or ranged weapon in order to take one of the artifacts?  The only requirement is that one weapon is exchanged for the artifact.  Wargear is an ambiguous term and the boltgun itself is considered wargear.

[Ethrion]

I don't understand why you asked the question in the first place then. If you're dead set on reading it that way then go for it, I won't stop you. It's not written like that though, you can just find a way to interpret it that way.

[Leonaides]

So - you're having trouble in a hardcore competative meta, with your fluffy army choice, and want to game the urine recyc out of a weak semantic quibble... Go for it if you want to, or you could just take some other army list choices... TS used to have heavy weapons though - I think you're getting confused with the artificial limitations placed on your fluff by the 3.5 C:CSM...

[WG Capt. Iagn Thunderclaw]

So - you're having trouble in a hardcore competative meta, with your fluffy army choice, and want to game the urine recyc out of a weak semantic quibble... Go for it if you want to, or you could just take some other army list choices... TS used to have heavy weapons though - I think you're getting confused with the artificial limitations placed on your fluff by the 3.5 C:CSM...

 

 

Very Nice Come Back...Now back on subject is this use of the BBoS actually against the rule as written?

 

I don't understand why you asked the question in the first place then. If you're dead set on reading it that way then go for it, I won't stop you. It's not written like that though, you can just find a way to interpret it that way.

 

I showed you the actual Rule as Written.  You are choosing yourself to read something into it that isn't there.  Until there is a FAQ, my interpretation is right.

[Ethrion]

I disagree, you didn't show me a rule as written, you have found a grey area in wording that might possibly allow for abuse. In every other codex in every other instance grenades are never an option to swap in or out for other weapons, they are an upgrade/addon. The wording might be such that a loophole could be argued for in this case but going on precedence from all the other books that's why I said it's not allowed.

 

I don't see an FAQ being required and as such I will take your standpoint and say my interpretation is right and that you are reading something into it that you want to be there but isn't really.

 

This reminds me of Joey and Ross' debate over who should date that girl: "I think that I should date her", "ok interesting but how about this...I date her", "I see where your coming from but what if instead, I date her" - this could go on for ages...we should probably get some food.

[WG Capt. Iagn Thunderclaw]

I disagree, you didn't show me a rule as written, you have found a grey area in wording that might possibly allow for abuse. In every other codex in every other instance grenades are never an option to swap in or out for other weapons, they are an upgrade/addon. The wording might be such that a loophole could be argued for in this case but going on precedence from all the other books that's why I said it's not allowed.

 

Since Codex Rules trump BRB and since every codex is unique your point is not valid.  Codex Space Wolf has drop pods that can only transport 10 models where all the other codex's allow the drop pod to carry 12. 

 

Just because all the other codex say one thing does not make any difference to the conversation at all otherwise, there would be 12 space wolves in a pod which there can not be.

 

The plain fact is, the BRB lists grenades as weapons and frag grenades as one that can be used in melee.

 

The Burning Brand allows us to swap out one weapon (non-specific) in order to take the artifact.

 

Rule as Written would then allow the exchange of the frag grenade for the Burning Brand.

 

All of which would make Tzeentch chuckle just a little.

[Ethrion]

The drop pod argument is invalid because it's an entirely different argument so we can leave that out. This isn't a case of rule book over codex this is a case of finding a shady area of wording and choosing to read it a certain way to allow for something to fit. Taking every other codex does actually make a difference when you look at the overall picture rationally and reasonably.

 

The plain fact is while grenades have a weapon profile and can be used in a certain situations they have the same classification as a melta bomb or a plasma grenade or a haywire grenade. In that they are a piece of extra wargear that models sometimes have as standard or can be upgraded to carrying. They do not count as a 'ranged' weapon or a 'melee' weapon and as such do not count as a weapon that can be replaced for the burning brand.

 

It is not a rule as written, if anything you are finding a rule that's not written and inserting the logic that "because it doesn't say you can't therefore it means you can", which is wrong.

 

Anyway, I'm not going to convince you and you are not going to convince me. So let's just drop it now.

[*Furyou Miko]

Codex trumps rulebook.

 

The Codex says your grenades are Wargear and lists them under Special Issue Wargear, not weapons.

 

Therefore, you cannot do this.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264597-are-grenades-weapons/?hl=%2Bswapping+%2Bgrenades

[Leonaides]

The drop-pod argument doesn't work as GW have admitted it was a typo to be rectified in the next C:SM, and Drop-pods for DA, BA and BT are all also 10-model capacity. 

[WG Capt. Iagn Thunderclaw]

ive read the entry on taking a chaos artifact about 30 times and I still cant see where it says I cant replace a weapon other than a force weapon or bolt pistol in place of the artifact.  I don't think it says anything but replace a weapon which a grenade is according to at least two entries in the BRB.

 

If you can show me a Rule as Written that directs someone to replace a force weapon / bolt pistol exclusively in order to take the chaos artifact im afraid you are not following RAW.

[Hellios]

No. You have to prove you are right. Do you agree or disagree that C:CSM has grenades in the wargear section of the armory.

[*Furyou Miko]

The BRB says in two places that a Grenade is a weapon, but the Codex says that a Grenade is not a weapon, because the codex defines Weapons as "things that appear on the weapon option lists or weapon summary table", and your frag and krak grenades do not appear there.

 

Codex trumps rulebook.

[WG Capt. Iagn Thunderclaw]

The BRB says in two places that a Grenade is a weapon, but the Codex says that a Grenade is not a weapon, because the codex defines Weapons as "things that appear on the weapon option lists or weapon summary table", and your frag and krak grenades do not appear there.

 

Codex trumps rulebook.

 

Well I see on pg 105 of the Codex CSM that Krak Grenades are listed as melee weapons along with every other weapon in our Codex.

 

I also see on pg 94 "Sorcerer", krak grenades are listed as wargear but then again so is the Sorcerer's Bolt Pistol and Force Weapon.

 

On pg 91 "Chaos Wargear List", Krak Grenades are not listed but other melee weapons and ranged weapons are along with the artifact itself.

 

On pg 66 "Special Issue Wargear", both Frag and Krak are listed but the Codex which as you say trumps everything, only refers to the Warhammer 40k rulebook which as we already know says grenades are weapons. (pg 61 BRB and pg 415 BRB)

 

So either the Bolt Pistol is just as much wargear as a frag / krak grenade or a frag / krak grenade is a weapon as described in the BRB just as Codex CSM instructs us to refer to in order to define frag / krak grenades on pg 66 Codex CSM

[facmanpob]

I've got an idea, rather than posting it in this sub-forum, why not post it in the Official Rules sub-forum, at which point all of the people who normally sit and debate these things will wade in and give you an opinion?

 

Alternatively, it does appear that you have already made up your mind on this question, regardless of the views of everyone else. So why not simply go ahead and do what you want to do, and see if anyone in your gaming group objects.......

[facmanpob]

Actually don't bother.....

Page 66 of the Codex says:

Special Issue Wargear

Rules for the following grenades can be found in the Warhammer 40,000 rule book:

Frag Grenades

Krak Grenades

and Page 91 says:

Special Issue Wargear

A model can take up to one......

Therefore, frag and krak grenades are listed as Special Issue Wargear in the codex, and there is no option for swapping an item of Special Issue Wargear....so you can't do the swap as you would like.

Also, try doing a search in the Official Rules section, I found at least 2 threads in which the same conclusion was reached.