Dreadknight Vs Waithknight

[Preston10K]

Has any one had there NDK go Head to crotch with the Wraithknight yet?

 

What where the results?

 

[Gentlemanloser]

Not yet, but it would be;

 

FALCON PUNCH!

 

FORCE WEAPON ACTIVATION

 

Dead Wraithknight.

[IK Viper]

Dreadknight with full wounds should do fine against a Wraithknight.  He wuold have to hit and wound with everything and then you turn around and fail all 4 5++ saves.  it could happen but not likely.  Does it have granades? 

[Sigvard]

@ Gentlemanloser. That makes me so badly want to do it with a pair of Doomfists now :-)

[Bigger-than-Jesus]

Honestly, if your opponent lets you Charge an uninjured DK into his WK, he deserves to lose it. Eldar have enough AP1-3 weaponry to easily deal with a MC to not need a Wraithknight for it, so why would they give you a chance to kill it?

[Preston10K]

How tough is a wraith knight I've not actually seen it stat line!!

 

I tore apart 2 riptides on sunday which I have to admit made me feel soft and warm inside but want to know should i be ready to sink my doom fist or power sowrd in to the mini Titan! 

[Gentlemanloser]

Dreadknight with full wounds should do fine against a Wraithknight. He wuold have to hit and wound with everything and then you turn around and fail all 4 5++ saves. it could happen but not likely. Does it have granades?

Unless the Eldar player has purchased the 5++ Shield (same Invulnerable save we have), it gets no saves versus our S10 Fists.

Which, as force weapons, ID the WK if it suffers a wound.

And the Eldar don't have RoW to protect them any more. An increased 'Deny' doesn't have any effect on Force Weapon activation.

If you catch the WK in CC, it's dead.

@ Gentlemanloser. That makes me so badly want to do it with a pair of Doomfists now :-)

Model one holding a WK head in it's Fist!

Honestly, if your opponent lets you Charge an uninjured DK into his WK, he deserves to lose it. Eldar have enough AP1-3 weaponry to easily deal with a MC to not need a Wraithknight for it, so why would they give you a chance to kill it?

Personal Teleporter.

[Aethernitas]

If we are talking cc only the WK is so very dead against a NDK. Assuming the WK charges (which is very probably if the NDK shunts or DS in or is without PT) it goes something like: WK hits first with I5, hits on 4+, wounds on 2+ and the NDK gets a 5++ which results in about 1,5 wounds done by the WK. In return the NDK hits on 3's and wounds on 2's (probably rerolls everything with sword) which results in about 2 wounds without sword and 3 wounds with sword. If the WK got scattershield substract 1/3 of the done wounds. Either way - that still leaves an average of more than 1 wound which should result in an ID by NFW. Even if the fight goes into a second round the NDK has the upper hand.

 

Remember - this assumes the WK charged, therefore it has even lass attacks in the following rounds and the NDK has less attacks in the first.

 

A NDK with sword and PT is still cheaper than a WK without any loadout so thats a very effective counter.

 

edit: typos

[number6]

We're all assuming the WK has exchanged its heavy wraithcannons for one of the 5++ shield options.

 

I will do no such thing. Because even if your NDK bought a teleporter, the WK is itself a jump MC, and will therefore have a minimum of 2 shooting turns with its wraithcannons. Generally, it'll get 3 hits with those things in two turns, giving you excellent odds of rolling at least one 6, potentially insta-gibbing even a NDK with full wounds.

 

The threat of heavy wraithcannon death would force a GK player to focus hard on the WK early and probably asymmetrically. So even if the WK did go down, I think an overall army advantage might be with the Eldar player as a result.

 

Most GK players rely heavily on their tricked out NDKs to perform most of the heavy lifting. A stock WK -- or two! -- would be major cause for concern. On the flip side, any WK that paid points for an invul save would leave the advantage to the NDKs.

 

It's situations like this one -- common, actually, what with several armies wanting to pour points into uber-MCs of one stripe or another -- that make me scratch my head when I see Eldar players increasing the cost of their WK to make the darn thing more vulnerable and less offensively useful. If nothing else, you've got 2 S10 shots. As a Tau player, i'm jealous! I miss my S10 railgun broadsides!

[Gentlemanloser]

N6, if you expand the given situation, then I'm gonna Psycannon/Snipe the WK to death before it does anything. ;)

 

The question was a WK - DK head to head.  And what the outcome would be.

 

Which is death to the WK in the vast majority of situations.

[Aethernitas]

Don't lump everyone together. Both me and GL pointed out the POSSIBILITY of a 5++ on the WK and I even gave the outcome for both situations. Gotta consider all the options. Apart from that i wouldn't call the chance for a six in 3 hits (before any cover/invul saves) "excellent odds".

 

When looking at the WK in the bigger picture it's pretty clear that a mildly competent Eldar player won't let your NDKs near his WKs without doing everything he can to stop that from happening. Then again we can't look at the NDKs in a vaccuum without GK support. Considering this I can't comprehend how buying a scattershield option gives the advantage to the NDKs and neither do I understand why wraithcannons force me to focus the WK. Just keep your NDKs out of the line of fire. My preferred method for that is to DS them if they've got no PT and if they do they can play keep-out (wraithcannons are "only" 36") till the stage is set and my minions are in position for them to shunt in and get serious.

 

Having said that - my preferred option against WK aren't even NDKs. When I play against Eldar the first thing I want to get a Grip on is how much AA they brought and how cocky I can therefore be with my Stormraven as I think the most powerful weapons against WK and consort are not the NDKs but TDAGK's (or anything with hammerhand and/or hammers) charging from a Stormraven.

 

Edit: typos :>

[number6]

Apart from that i wouldn't call the chance for a six in 3 hits (before any cover/invul saves) "excellent odds".

 

 

FWIW: there's an 11/18 chance of rolling at least one 6 in three die rolls. The odds go up dramatically for every die you add to the mix.

[Brother Bobert]

I've had one game against the new eldar, I took two NDK and walked across the table. One lost two wounds then charged the WK, I got wounded once and then got two wounds in then activated the fist and took out the WK.  The other walked around the table killing off WG and bikes.  The sword is nice and all but the rerolls to hit, wound, and pen just doesn't seem to be needed.

[Aethernitas]

I've had one game against the new eldar, I took two NDK and walked across the table. One lost two wounds then charged the WK, I got wounded once and then got two wounds in then activated the fist and took out the WK.  The other walked around the table killing off WG and bikes.  The sword is nice and all but the rerolls to hit, wound, and pen just doesn't seem to be needed.

 

I dare to say against Eldar opponents that let their WK get cought by footslogging NDKs not much comes to mind that is "needed" anyways...

[Justicar Enethys]

I had a game against an Eldar player only a couple of days ago, sporting not one, but two of these monstrosities. They were really no way near as much of a threat as I had imagined. I killed both by the end of Turn 3 - and this was in very large part to my Dreadknights (HI,NGS,PT). I had weakened one of them using my Vindicare Assassin and the 2nd had taken a wound from one of my Stormravens - but the NDK mopped up once they reached CC.

I honestly think in CC the NDK has nothing to fear (Well of course things CAN go wrong - but the match up is a tasty one for the NDK). I don't think the Nemesis Greatsword is even necessary in the matchup, but have mine permanently equipped anyway as I don't list tailor.

 

The Eldar player came VERY close to a win that game. It was a tough scrap in which my Terminators had a hard time (LOTS of respect for the new Eldar Codex) and it was kind of considered the WKs and NDKs would be 'out of the game' while they had a personal showdown. Not the case. My NDKs both toasted some Eldar on their way to the WKs and come Turn 4 after both WKs had been handled, my NDKs were both still of use to me and of great frustration to the Eldar chap. Granted - I did end up losing both by the end of Turn 6 - but they earned their inclusion far more than the new 'super' model.

[Dread]

See I'm stuck in the situation that I'm the only GK player as well as Eldar, so if I want a game I guess I would have to challenge my self. I don't have a WK yet but would like one. I have to DK's and I do love to field them .

[Sigvard]

@Dread. I kind of know how you feel. I have just started piecing together an Eldar army and I think that will be the only time I see a full game is if I play myself with Eldar.

 

@Justicar. What was it you found most difficult about facing the new Eldar book?

[Dread]

My list of opponents is CSM, Tau, Necrons, Space Wolves , Dark Angels and occasionally IG. I'm the only one here that has Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sisters but there is one other GK player but with the Tau release, he won't be playing GK. Unfortunetly, I have to put my list together based on CSM if I want any stayablilty.  Anyhow, back on topic, so far I still bank on my DK's for taking out heavier units. As soon as I get a WK, I will have a better understanding of it's pros and cons.

[Justicar Enethys]

Sigvard - It was a 2,500 point game (Though I've faced the new Eldar at 1,500 and 2,000) and so I got to see a wide variety of their new abilities in action. While the Wraithknight and new Wraithguard are tough cookies - they are easily handled I found. Well, maybe not easily, but easily enough.

 

However, the Eldar's mobility with this new Codex is unbelievably awesome and by far the aspect I found the most difficult to deal with. Not insurmountable - obviously - but difficult for sure. They were never a slow army really (Unless fielding a Wraith army) but now they can absolutely run circles around most opponents. Battle Focus is a fantastic rule for them and really opens up tactics they lacked before. In particular, I found Warp Spiders to be insanely good. I always liked them when I played Eldar years ago - but they have really come into their own now. Wave Serpents are great transports and are very tough to bring down. The fact they often contain units of Fire Dragons which aren't so restricted on foot now is an extra headache for us GK. Even basic Dire Avengers and Guardians now are a more fearsome prospect to go up against. I felt in my games that Eldar aren't as defensively capable as they once were - but much more deadly on the offense - which they excel at thanks to their mobility and ability to press an attack hard.

 

Oh - one more thing - War Walkers. They were always good for their cost and brought much firepower to the table - but they have been cranked up to 11 now in my opinion. With Scatter Lasers allowing Laser Lock (Or whatever it's called) Scatter Laser/Bright Lance War Walkers seem to be growing wildly in number in my local meta. Joy of joys.

 

The new shiny models are new . . . and shiny . . . but really doesn't bother me too much. The entire army wide abilities and new found mobility and offensive power is the thing I found noticeably increased. I've pulled out wins against them - but I haven't had an 'easy' victory yet. That's no bad thing - but it certainly is noticeable.

 

Note: The Crimson Hunter - I am not impressed by. People can rant n and on to me about how awesome they are and their potential. I don't care. On paper - most things have a use (I'd say everything - but Venerable Dreadnoughts - pffft) - but in reality - I found the new Eldar flyer to be a joke. I was happy my opponents played them as it was less 'good' things I had to face in their list. It's a nice model and I'm sure when rolling well it can be useful (What can't when the dice gods smile upon them) - but I've played against at least one in 4 games now - and I'm yet to be put out by it. As for the other one - the Hemlock? - I don't know as I've not see one in action personally yet.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'd still say our DK is a viable hard-counter to a WK. I mean, its not like the Eldar will stand still long enough for anything else to reach it. But yeah, if those wraith lances proc, goodbye DK. 

 

In more general terms, Eldar still would have a hard time against Knights. Even with all the buffs, they still hate storm bolter and psycannon to the face, and psycannon in particular is great against their vehicle pool (nothing heavier than AV12, reliant on cover saves which we can deny with Divination or break with massed shots). We're also a MeQ army with default scoring Terminators, which is just rubbing salt into the wound of 'wow none of our vehicles have Assault Ramps, and most of our melee units are AP3 or rely on Rending'. Ravens/PsyDreads > Eldar planes. The new Wraithguard can be scary (S4 AP2 flamers urgh), but they're still slow and expensive so we trade well. 

 

Amusingly, due to their psychic power changes and the nerfing to wargear, we're still ahead in the psychic arms race. They get mirror powers (ie two for the price of one), but their hex's get stopped on a 5+, 4+ if we brought a Mastery 3 Librarian (Eldrad is the only Mastery 4 they can get). On the flipside, with the removal of the Runes of Facemelt, we can freely cast all our buff powers and their Deny bonuses never matter except for the rare hex we throw their way from Divination (or if we buy 'Rift' for the lulz to nuke Wraithguard with).