Fire Support for a World Eater/Khornate Army

[Prot]

So I'm juggling other lists around for a full World Eaters style army. And I'm finding I only have two squads of Rhino mounted Berzerkers and I need to make up for that.

 

I have wondered how am I going to add fire support to an army that probably has to do 'well' in close combat to be successful. Right now I have my typical Heldrake and Cultists manning a Quad Gun behind an Aegis wall.

 

I'm thinking with everything else I'm going to try to support the 2 Berzerker squads with shooty units that -can- assault. So far here's what I have:

 

- 4 Termies (MoK, attached to Termie Lord) with Plasma/meltas

- 5 Raptors (MoK, 2 x Melta)

- 1 Hadesfiend (Just had to do it, I love the model)

- 4 Bikes w/melta/plasma and MoK

 

 

This deviates from my standard quite a bit. My other heavy slots are held by Maulerfiends, so I am hitting hard with assault. All of my primary shooting is coming from units that I hope can hold their own in Close Combat.

 

Is this a mistake? Do you think I should just go back to good old Oblits? (MoK? MoN?) Or should I forgo the idea of supporting the army like this and just go with assaulty units like Warp Talons (too pricey?),  more Berzkers, Spawns, Helbrutes w/MM?

 

I'm thinking right now that I need mobile fire support with MoK but this could be wrong. Anti-vehicle support can be provided for in different ways, I'm trying to find something "Khorney" while staying competitive.

 

 

[Deadman Wade]

I use plasma Chosen in rhino for medium range fire support for Berzerkers squads, nice firepower and they can beat non-dedicated melee units. I also like msu raptors with plasma guns. From your list I would take raptors and bikers, both are nice units, reasonably priced, fast and reliable.

[minigun762]

Based on what your saying, I think Oblits are the best option for you. Packing a powerfist is going to give them a lot more punch in close combat.

MoK is more fluffy but I'd feel obligated to take VotLW (which I would anyway) to help ensure counterattack goes off.

The other thing I'd consider is Predators. Yes they can't take care of themselves in CC but every Legion had access to Predators and it's very likely that more than a couple survived this long.

While triple Lascannons might be the best overall option, I'd be tempted to go with a true hybrid with AC/LC and HML on top. 4 guns, all with 48" range that can threaten light armor, MCs and most infantry units. As long as you have something else to take care of AV14, I think you'll be well served by it.

[Emperors Immortals]

It might be a bit lame, but I swear by a Landraider filled with bezerkers. It's expensive BUT comes with 2 twin linked lascannons and will have guaranteed shock value. I found it works real good with mailers.

 

Otherwise id second the predator idea.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Havocks with 4 Special weapons, give them CCW and Icon of Wrath, they are nearly has good has zerkers in CC and have some firepower.

 

Cost less then Chosens.

[Prot]

Hmmm, very good thoughts guys. Thanks for responding.

 

I'm trying to get in the World Eater mindset here, and originally I was thinking that whatever I have providing fire support, should be able to hold its own in close combat.

 

Right now my Heavy slots are 2 x Maulerfiends with Lashers and a vanilla Hadesfiend. Most of the support fire I mentioned was in other categories, namely Fast Attack.

 

But you bring up an interesting point with the Predators. Minigun, as we've discussed before, that's what I took prior to fiends. In playing with the list, going to two Preds drastically changes things... for the better? I'm unceratain.

 

I also like that Havok idea... and yea, being cheaper than Chosen is nice, but the main problem here is I was hoping to get fire support from units outside of Heavy Support so I could throw Maulerfiends at my opponent but now it's looking like at best I can squeeze one Maulerfiend in.

[minigun762]

I think you could mimic a second Maulerfiend pretty well by using spawn. Unless the target is a land raider, S5 is going to kill it. Four spawn are the same price as a Fiend and 4D6+8 S5 attacks will munch armor.

 

Edit : Consider Daemon or IG allies (Blood Pact). Cheap Grinder would be some extra shooting and armor saturation.

[Prot]

Oh man, I love those ideas. Spawn is something I've only used once, and I've never allied but having 'real' World Eaters, I wouldn't feel cheezy about it. I also have a full Blood Pact army, but I'm thinking more of a Grinder, but I am not too familiar with that rule set or what I'd be best served taking to get the Grinder, so for now I'm going to see if I can make my list work as is, or try to fit Spawn in.

 

My list has changed several times since starting this thread, and at one point I had 2 Preds, now I have zero! I had a landraider and 3 heavies for a while but I wanted more Berzerkers.

 

This might be a bad idea but I have two squads, one 10 one 9, of Zerkers in rhino's with Dirge Casters and Icons of Wrath. This limits my fire support moreso and now this has me just thinking of Oblits. Yes it's boring I know, but as mentioned they can provide melee if I need it....

 

The beauty of the Maulers is providing relief for the Rhino's.... I mean something has to get through with that much AV 11-12 right? This is also why I like Helbrutes for support, replacing a Mauler: It comes from elites, and costs less. But Maulers are bloody fast.

 

I see what you're saying though, by dumping a Mauler I could get 3 spawn to replace the Mauler at a discount and get a better heavy choice.

 

So far the bikes are staying, providing dual support roles.I have my Termie Lord with Termie retinue which also provide fire support. If anything I'm a touch low on the massed firepower for hordes which would undoubtedly overwhelm my paltry numbers....

 

I gotta go back to the drawing board. At 1850 I always take the Heldrake and I have cultists sitting on a Quad cannon so there's that. I wonder if I'm over thinking the fire support issue and just use my heavies for assault items?  Two Preds is still tempting though.. and so cheap and good for armour and hordes. Might have to revisit that, and then with only one Maulerfiend, the rest of my army can be very assault oriented and the dual Pred's would fill the gap.

[Odsox]

I do love me a good Soul Grinder. And making it a Daemon of Khorne doesn't cost you anything! The best part of it is that while it and the Defiler are equally scary, the Grinder gets free Skyfire and costs what, sixty points less?

 

What size army are you looking at? If you get the chance to take a thousand points of allies I'd recommend the following for fluffy fun:

 

• Bloodthirster: Greater Rewards
• 3 x 16 Bloodletters, Icon, Instrument, Bloodreaper with lesser rewards
• Soul Grinder, Daemon of Khorne

 

for bang on 1000points.

 

But if you want pure Khorney fire support without spending too many points, I'd definitely recommend:

 

• Herald of Khorne: Lesser rewards (cheap and choppy)
• 10 Naked Bloodletters
• Soul Grinder, Daemon of Khorne, Phlegm Bombardment - because who DOESN'T love AP3 pieplates?

 

for a mere 330 points.

 

Or you could, I don't know, do something boring and expensive like take Imperial Guard allies with a squadron of 3 Leman Russ Exterminators with Multi-Meltas putting out twelve S7 Ap4 and six S8 AP2 shots each turn into a single soon-to-be-obliterated target....  which is something I'd never do...

 

Od.

[Prot]

The daemon thing sounds like a great touch but I'd probably at most be sprinkling it in there. I know very little of the codex though so it's a bit of a reach for me right now but the Soul Grinder is a model I own and used as a second Defiler just for the model. The 330 pt option sounds fun. I'll look into it.

[minigun762]

Bloodletters are oddly enough BS5, so they can have a field day with a quadgun.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Yeah Soul Grinders are a more sturdy and cheaper version of the defiler (Soul Grinder AV13, Defiler AV12), but the Defilers Battle cannon is an artillery weapon, where the Phlegm of the Soulgrinder is only an assault weapon..., but it does'nt have much importance.

 

Now if you allready own a Blood Pact force, the advantage is that for 1 HS slot you can have 3 Leman russes and the obligatory HQ and troop choice are so cheap, that you virtualy only pay for tanks.

 

Now you can take a 10 man squad and a Heavy weapon squad for 1 Troop choice, giving you more Firepower.

 

As you can see you have lots of options and solutions, you should, if you can, try them all, or concentrate on the ones you can easely achieve(Deamons, seeing that you allready have a SG, or Bloodpact, since you allready own them)

 

Now if you really want to go with more then 1 Mauler + the Teeths of Khorne idea(Havoks), don't forget the double FoC rule!

[Prot]

Well I had my game using primarily my World eater force sprinkled with Daemons. As I reread this thread it's kind of funny how I asked for some fire support advice for WE and ended up with some Khorne Daemons to remain 'fluffy'. :)

 

I took the Herald of Khorne, the 10 Bloodletters, and the Soul Grinder, and I got beat up pretty good. I ended up playing an IG guy with a pretty strong list. Manticore, Punisher, 3 Lascannon squads (!), 2 Vendettas with Melta Vets, two IG Blob squads, command squad and 2 Chimera's mostly behind an Aegis with Quad.

 

We ended up playing kill points, with short edge deployment, meaning I had to go the length of the table to reach him. ouch. He got first turn. I surged up the side trying to give me a chance to avoid some firepower, but it sucked. While I mimized damage I just took SO MUCH FIREPOWER! Arrrgh the Khorne gods were angry.... such a cowardly way to wage a war!

 

Anyway I went full throtle and man did my Maulerfiend take an amazing beating, so did the Soul Grinder.  The bad thing about surging on one side is it gave him Manticore AMAZING targets with multiple ST10 pie shots which devastated me.... what could I do? I tried to stay away from half the lascannons and vehicles. I tried to hold it together but my losses were prety bad.

 

By the time I reached him I made one bad mistake. I had one Rhino alive with Dirge Casters and I did not want to run to him without support of Dirge Casters. I have done this before against an IG Blob squad and the firepower output is ridiculous.... this was a mistake because my Maulerfiend still had 2 hullpoints and was not in any real danger from that squad and I could have saved myself a big headache of taking 2 rounds of firing from that blob.....

 

I lost the Maulerfiend the next turn (my fault entirely, there was no logic in holding it back). His second turn, one of his Vendettas come on. My second turn, none of my reserves. I take a lot more pounding, lose 2 of my 3 bikes.

 

At this point I'm trying to get anything into close combat I can because I'm still 8" away from close combat and I've lost about a fourth of my army? My Quad cannon was doing zippo with the moronic cultists leaning against it for something to nap on apparently.

 

My turn 3 all my reserves come in... Termies lead by Lord w/Axe, Bloodletters lead by Herald, my single Heldrake. But it feels far too late, he still has 95% of his army, and I deep strike with huge risk right in front of his Aegis. He says I'm crazy deep striking right in front of his lascannon teams, I tell him it's the only chance I have.

 

Lord Zhufor (termie Lord) ends up rolling a 1 for his Daemon weapon. I can't tell you how frustrating that was as I've done this in every game in 6th edition I've ever played with this stupid weapon. But of course Chaos must pay for having access to such a precious device and I do dearly... the other Termies all died so Zhufor could wack the bejesus out of the command squad operating the Quad gun but instead I hit myself in the face once, and only killed ONE guardsman... this was at the price of all the other terimes.

 

The Bloodletters staired down a ton of firepower including lascannons and 5 survived along with the Herald. They rushed the Lascannon teams and minced them up quite nicely. My World Eaters rushed in and I had to explain to my opponent why he couldn't overwatch with 4.8 million guardsmen, which he was not happy about. (dirge caster)

 

It took me 3 full turns (5-6 close combat turns) to kill that blob with 2 remnant squads of Berzerkers. One of my champions lost his first challenge, to a mere human guardsman. D'oh! The second one put the beats on all the middle management the Commissar could throw at me until it was finally his turn to dance with me, and by then my Champ had 3-4 Chaos Boon gifts and was quite the ninja with his claw.

 

It's an old trick with the Commissar but the stubborn rule held him in there forever with a pitiful amount of points and I just couldn't kill enough. Zhufor went off like a madman killing that platoon command and he was so frustrated with his moronic cultists on the quad cannon that he took control of the IG Quad cannon and took rear shots at a Vendetta gunship taking it down. Then he died in a hail of bullets.

 

Fast forwarding to the end, we went 6 turns he had like 10 killpoints including kill the warlord, and linebreaker (don't ask) and I had 6 kill points including linebreaker.

 

It was a fun but extremely frustrating game. It re-emphasizes how tilted 6th feels towards shooty, and  tarpits. It's been a while since I took an army based primarily in assault for Chaos and this is typically why.

 

However that said, I enjoyed the game and could have turned it if not for some horrible luck at the worst times. Somethings that left me thinking:

 

- Daemon weapons. I hate them. Again the chaos randomness kicks me in the teeth. Horrible weapon and I simply try it over and over again only to absolutely despise it.

- Maulerfiends. If this wasn't a Heavy selection it would be gold.

- Daemons. Fun, but mediocre. Functioned very admirably though and I really enjoyed the Soulgrinder but it did maybe 8 wounds on guardsman and flailed uselessly at Vendettas the rest of the game, but it did take an amazing amount of firepower.

- The truth is, I don't know if you can go this assault heavy in the 6th and hope for success. The way to make Berzerkers function well requires too heavy an investment in 6th edition.

- I took 2 Wrath icons in my 2 Zerker squads. While far too expensive, I actually needed them and they did make the difference between making it to close combat and just dying in the wind, but still far too expensive in an overpriced unit.

- Rhino's with Dirge casters. Rhino's are still a really terrible transport and the way assaulting out of vehicles works continually makes me wish we had Drop pods! But what can you do? At least with Dirge Casters they may provide some function in the game.

 

 

I took some recommendations from a local Daemon player and will consider giving it another go. It was a fun game and I did enjoy the challenge of the handicap of playing this army... I nearly made a monumental comeback in that game, the berzerkers were just held up too long... stupid commissar! :P

[minigun762]

Good report Prot, it sounds like the dice gods really hated on you that game.

 

As far as the Berzerkers, beyond the obvious idea of putting them in Land Raiders, do you think it would've made much of a difference if you'd dropped the Icons and Rhinos and just taken more bodies?

[Prot]

Thanks Minigun,

 

I think pulling the icons would be potentially a good idea, however to make the most of the icons I loaded the squads as best I could. Each of the 2 rhinos had 9 Berzerkers.  So by pulling 2 icons, I'm not sure the gain would out weigh the benefit of Furious Charge and the Re-roll(s). 

 

I always try new stuff in the chaos codex, and this was a first for me taking 2 icons in 2 zerker squads. I think I said about a year ago a goal of mine was to play the entire codex one day. I've nearly done that (can't fathom Tzeentch doing well though!).

 

Anyway, I still think Nurgle is the way to go. The flexibilty of the Plague marine is hard to beat, even at their price.

 

In my overall assessment of the Codex, as I play through these tons of games is that I've been mistaken about our troops to some degree. With my Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Necrons, etc, the troops are the main function of the army. With Chaos it really does feel like the troops just -support- the main function of the army.

 

It may sound confusing or a minor difference but I am convinced it is a very large difference in execution between those two mind sets. I -think- that this is why I've been so successful with my Iron Warrior lists even though no one gives them two thoughts. Also I think this is why Zombie lists work... they are both armies in where my troops facilitate the function of the rest of the army and more or less... stay out of the way and remain dirt cheap while the 'real' units do the work. This would probably be a bad idea with most other armies but works for me with chaos.

 

So with the competitive players I typically play with, I have to really weigh this out. I had many thoughts after the game of what I could have done better.... I just don't know. The style of army just felt like a mountain to climb against many armies like IG, Tau, Necrons, Eldar, etc. I am thinking the Zerkers should be the only assault element, let them do what they do and let the rest of the army do the heavy lifting. They just don't cut it.

 

Also, I hate to say this but I'm heavily leaning towards a second Baledrake. All of the guys I saw last night had 2 flyers except me. It's starting to become staple which kind of sucks but I suppose this is the direction GW have pushed the game. So I can fight it, or profit from it I suppose.

 

I'm considering dropping the heavy CC elements, or going full bore with a Bloodthirster ally, getting rid of the Quad, and bikes, and going with more CC. I don't know. :)

[minigun762]

Thanks Minigun,

 

I think pulling the icons would be potentially a good idea, however to make the most of the icons I loaded the squads as best I could. Each of the 2 rhinos had 9 Berzerkers.  So by pulling 2 icons, I'm not sure the gain would out weigh the benefit of Furious Charge and the Re-roll(s). 

Remember that you already have Furious Charge, the icon is just giving you the reroll.

 

Besides dirge casters, Rhinos don't provide very much for your army at all. If you were running Khorne Marines who hop out of a Rhino, rapid fire and then charge or take a charge, I would see more value in them. To me, this says you need Land Raiders or straight red wave of bodies. Taking losses is ok if you can still hit them with enough bodies to matter.

(Obviously you know all this, I'm just word vomiting what I'd do if I played KBs).

 

 

I'm trying REALLY hard to stay away from Plague Marines but they've made it very difficult. Super tough but also super killy in assault with PlagueGrit and the best CSM choice to bring power axes on outside Terminators. Much of the entire Codex screams "Mark it with Nurgle!" and I know I have to do some creative justifications not to embrace that idea haha.

 

 

 

 

In my overall assessment of the Codex, as I play through these tons of games is that I've been mistaken about our troops to some degree. With my Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Necrons, etc, the troops are the main function of the army. With Chaos it really does feel like the troops just -support- the main function of the army.

 

We must be on the same wavelength because this is the change I'm noticing myself.

Last codex, the troops were good enough/flexible enough to form the foundation of your army and you just used the rest of your army to fill in the gaps.

With this book, I think its flipped. Build your army and fit in the troops you need to finish the job.

 

For me, this has led to building midfield Rhino CSM squads. Get within 12-24" and blast away with Bolters and specials, no combat upgrades beyond VotLW and a "just in case" melta bomb. I've been looking at daemons for dedicated assault units or objective campers, so I'm using CSMs to fulfill that shooting role.

 

If you went with IG allies, I could see Guardsmen providing your shooting and objective camping, so your marines could be your assault units.

 

 

[Slayer le Boucher]

What really got you, of what i understood, was the fact that you had to user the length of the table to deploy.

 

Against a shooty army, be it any kind of army, not just assault type army, its difficult, specially with Guards.

 

But Str 10 Manticors..., are you sure there isn't a mistake here?, i though they where Str9, not that it make much of a difference pour when he roll a total of 11 in place of 12 for Armor Pen on your Walkers, its always better.

 

personnaly my advice, would be to retry it but against another army and with a different deployment, 1 game isn't enough i think to really see what the list is capable of.

[Odsox]

 

I took the Herald of Khorne, the 10 Bloodletters, and the Soul Grinder, and I got beat up pretty good.

 

Oh man, I feel so bad now.

 

But to be fair, gunlines and flyers like the ones IG can bring out to play are Khorne's worst enemy. But be not disheartened, for this only shows their cowardice! They were not even worthy of murder at the hands of Khorne's chosen.

 

Od.

[Prot]

 

 

I took the Herald of Khorne, the 10 Bloodletters, and the Soul Grinder, and I got beat up pretty good.

 

Oh man, I feel so bad now.

 

But to be fair, gunlines and flyers like the ones IG can bring out to play are Khorne's worst enemy. But be not disheartened, for this only shows their cowardice! They were not even worthy of murder at the hands of Khorne's chosen.

 

Od.

 

Ah no worries. It was a fun game, that I just didn't quite have enough left in the tank to turn the tide when I got there.  I was still pretty happy with how the list performed. I made some minor mistakes but even so I could see the great potential of the Soul Grinder (plus great model). I am not sure however if I went overboard with close combat and perhaps the Daemon HQ and Bloodletters are just more of what I already have in play.

 

I've played a similar Khorne army as this many times, but I've always used mutli Oblits to keep my opponent honest. I wanted to try something different this time, and I did.

[treadhead]

I've been running a couple of variants recently in some friendlies

 

First tank heavy, 2 vindicators and a raider carrying some nastiness.

The vindicators are great for worrying people during deployment and usually get fried before the end game but when they don't they've held a flank on their own.

 

The second (now hear me out) 8 man havoc squad + 2 melta, 2 flamer, fist and rhino usually a pair of squads (think outriders) with a raider.

These guys tend to try and blend in to the rest of my rhinos, and are used more in a close support role (fluff wise they just really like to watch things burn and go bang from up close) then charge in as a 2nd wave if needed.

 

As for the AA issues a brace of vengance weapon batteries with quad las might work but i think they cost about 10 marines for the pair so it would be fiddly ponts wise

[HandofAnubis]

I have not played my World Eaters in a long time. I started to get back into things around the time 6th edition came out, and was working on my World Eaters, and then the Dark Angels Codex dropped so I have been distracted by my First Army. With that being said I was looking at trying out and all World Eaters army with mass Berzerkers, 3 Mauler Fiends, 3 Hell drakes and then either Warp Talons, or Possessed to round it out if points allow.... Though very expensive, I do love the Warp Talons! It may not have any fire support, but it is for sure a World Eaters style army, get in their face as much as possible and Burn, Maim, and Kill! I figure the fiends should hopefully draw enough fire to help the rest of the army get into CC. I had three rhinos full of Berzerkers and planned to have each of them follow a Fiend. then you can either start the Warp Talons on the board or deepstrike depending on you preference, I like to start them on the board since they cant shoot and would be sitting ducks first turn that they arrived.... I do also like the idea of having three mauler fiends escorting a Demon prince across the board....

[The thousand son]

Teeth of Khorne (from some of the oldest fluff there is - Realms of Chaos - Slaves to Darkness).

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Q05WUyh4Wj8/Tg3ukUAlfOI/AAAAAAAAAKE/q0ah5MPX3tU/s1600/teeth.jpg

[incinerator950]

Oh god that is beautiful.