Ravenwing Tactica Help. Prot crosses the table!

[Prot]

Yea I can't believe I did this, but after dabbling a few games in the Dark Angel book I decided to go for it and take the plunge. I thing my first real army waaaay back was Dark Angels but I quickly fell to Chaos for over a decade!

 

So I think even though we hear the Marine codex might be out this fall, I really felt attracted to the Dark Angels for a few reasons, one being the tactical diversity so let me jump into my questions.....

 

I thought I would be mr. terminator again but the title says it all; I've decided to jump in, head first into Ravenwing instead. I got a few boxes of stuff to go with my Dark Vengeance stuff and now I'm just not wanting to make any BIG mistakes as I put this stuff together.

 

First off, HQ. I just bought the codex and I'm not sure I understand the 'dakka' banner but that seems to go with Ravenwing. This goes with my HQ, but I'm not sure (aside from Sammael) how to put a solid HQ that I won't regret together for this army.

 

I would appreciate any help on this project. I started with codex, and I still have yet to read it entirely so excuse my ignorance as I muttle through this.

[Liberame]

I prefer a librarian on bike as my HQ to ride along with Sammael because I often use strategic warlord traits over the dark angel ones. Mastery level 2 because I make great use of most divination spells. 4++ invul on command squad? hell yes! Ignore cover on command squad? hell yes! Overwatch with full ballistic skill with dakka banner nearby? you bet ya. Even scriers gaze has a use if I am outflanking some bikes. Even prescience has a use as I, for some strange reason, of overheating sammaels plasma cannon, or wiffing a lot in melee. My libby rides around with a forcebat because I love him being str6 and when attacking things I make t3 via rad grenades, one fail save = instant death without needing to use force power. Sometimes I'll even give him a PFG to protect the command squad from helldrakes, and then if I roll forwarning, I'll cast it on another unit to help keep them safe as well.

 

 

In 2k+ double force org I throw in a chaplain on bike with mace of redemption for some melee power, but I tend to stick to shooting and only engage in melee if I am trying to hit n run past the bubble wrap into the juicy targets. 

[Stormtrooper-VII]

Yeah, Librarians on a bike are a good choice thanks to Divination as Liberame said, Interrogator chaplains are also a good choice if you're gearing towards close combat but generally the Librarian is a better choice.

[elphilo]

I don't have any real experience as a pure Ravenwing player so please be take this advice with some salt

This is what I've been reading on other forums as a suggestion to take for you HQs.

Sam and a Libby on bike (or Interrogator-Chaplain this part is only important so you can unlock two Ravenwing Command Squads)

One 5 man command squad with Banner of Devastation, maybe apothecary if you have the points

One 5 man command squad with Ravening Company Banner, that way you can hit and run all day every day AND you move an additional d6.

Oh also each one of these squads have a Ravenwing Grenade Launcher. The rest of the list is your standard Ravenwing Attack Squadron kitted out however you like.

I know when I saw this suggestion I thought it was a really good one, I haven't tried it yet though. So it might not be possible in your points level. Hope this helps!

[Prot]

Ok, that's a bit deeper than I was looking for.... I have read little snippets here and there about what is best. Basically I was trying to configure a Ravenwing Command squad to start.

 

Since I'm just trying to get to grips with this:

 

Does everyone take the Devastation Standard? Does everyone take the upgrades like the Apothecary and the Champion?

 

I've heard good things about the Shroud speeder (it seems like an interesting tactic), assuming only one model from a unit has to be within 6".

 

++edit++

elphilo you posted literally the same time I did... So I was thinking of 3 man Ravenwing command squads, instead of 5 man squads or it seems you lose the Devastation Banner's effect? (Like use it for one squad, turbo somewhere else, then use it for that squad.)

 

++edit2++

Ah I checked my codex, then realized it is an FAQ'd update that allows the Ravenwing command squad to be upgraded to 5.

[facmanpob]

Definitely upgrade the RWCS to 5 bikes, and I'd also take the apothecary and Champion. The devastation banner is the most useful banner, but the RW company banner is a good second choice.

 

I would also look at 2 6-bike RAS with no sergeant upgrades, but 2 meltaguns each, plus a couple of MMAB. Finally, a squadron of 2 Typhoons will round out a nice starting Ravenwing Force.

 

Sammy on Corvex + RWCS as above + 2 x RAS with MMAB + Typhoons = approx 1100 points depending on the banner you choose.

 

:)

[Tiger9gamer]

Alrough many people like the libby over the Chappy, There are some things to consider for the humble chaplain...

 

1: He has one more wound, and a free 4++ invuln over the libby. Makes him a little less squishy I think. although as facman pointed out two posts below, the IC is 45 points more expensive, and only comes with a crozius base.

 

2: Hatred will always go off in combat, so you don't need to worry about forgetting it or rolling over a leadership.

 

3: The chaplain can't kill himself with bad rolling, while the Psyker can. (as long as you don't give him a plasma pistol)

 

4: The chaplain loves the Mace of Redemption. loves it. Had one wipe out half of a big marine squad by himself with it.

 

 

Generally, an IC is good for a unit that can do well CCW (black knights anyone? or Deathwing knights?) and can add a much needed punch to some things. if you do take a CCW hq in general, never give him the PFG, as your enemies will have a 4++

[Pyro X]

the only problem with the dakka banner is that the unit thats holding in with RW (black knights) can't use it, minus the ICs. I normally run Fort over Dev, but change it up from time to time. I know we have an apothacary but having area FnP is great.

[facmanpob]

Just a quick note about point 1 above. The 4++ invulnerable save and extra wound aren't free....the Interrogator is 45 points more than the Libby, and the Libby gets a force weapon that can cause Instant Death.

[Tiger9gamer]

Noted and posted there. thanks for the tip!

[Liberame]

Ive had a lot of success with my Ravenwing in tournaments and league matches. I use 3 man RAS with 1 meltagun and a MM attackbike, Get at least 6 squads of these and you have 12 scoring units popping out a ton of dakka, Every squad is capable of pulling AT duty, and the opponent is saturated with a ton of targets. 

 

2 Ravenwing bikers cost 54pts base, An attack bike is 55pts with the multi melta and has 2 wounds, The attack bikes are a steal and I do my best to bring as many on the board as possible, and I love annoying my friends when I am shooting either 12 TL bolter shots from a 3 man squad, or 8 TL bolter and 1 meltagun. Or from my attackbike I fire 4 TL bolters and 1 multi melta. I only bother with more than 3 man biker units when I have maxed out all 6 troops choices, but I'd say try what works best in your meta. 

[Prot]

Thanks guys, a lot of great advice so far.

 

Some more things come to mind as I read this:

- How are you handling flyers? Most of my local opponents take at least two in each list, every variant you can think of.

- I am assuming you want to take a grenade launcher anytime you can?

- I have to be honest I plan on taking 6 man units to preserve victory points in those kinds of games, otherwise I'll combat squad them out, but I do understand I'll lose an attack bike by doing this.

- Are Black Knights enough? The way I'm juggling most lists, I'm more or less relying on them for most of the heavy lifting in CC.

- Upgrades? Aside from independent characters it seems like most people are keeping the squad leaders very vanilla, am I understanding this correctly? Is there a good time to spend some points on a character?

[Pyro X]

I run 3 full RASs (2 plasma gun, MM on AB, typhoon,MM), 2 RAS w/O speeder, lib, RWC, and Samuel and some times a flyer or LSV and it can really take down anything. Going with divination helps with anything you need. Even the primarus let's you take down flyers and you can use RWCS (twin linked plasma is great even if your out of rapid fire range). Just my 2 cents.

[facmanpob]

Thanks guys, a lot of great advice so far.

 

Some more things come to mind as I read this:

-

- Upgrades? Aside from independent characters it seems like most people are keeping the squad leaders very vanilla, am I understanding this correctly? Is there a good time to spend some points on a character?

The big problem with CC upgrades on Ravenwing Sergeants is that they only have 1 base attack, and don't have 2 CC weapons. So in order to make a CC weapon upgrade worthwhile, they need to be Veteran Sergeants to get 2 attacks. Factor that in and you are paying 25 points for a Power Weapon (which is roughly the cost of another bike). Considering that most people take the standard of devastation, the upgrade just isn't worth it. There is an argument for it if you are taking the Ravenwing Company Banner, as you know you're going to be in combat, but the problem with that is you want to be in CC on your opponent's turn so don't get shot, so you don't want to do too much damage in CC. Also, 2 x Vet Sergeants with power weapons is the points differential between the Company banner and the dakkapole, so you might as well have just bought the dakkpole in the first place!

 

Combi-weapons are a better upgrade option, but personally I don't bother.

[Prot]

Ok so it sounds like no real upgrades for sergeants are a realistic option. Again though, this means Black Knights do most of the heavy lifting and the rest of it is "Hit and Run" to stay out of cc?

 

So most bikes RAS are carrying melta. I assume this is to offset the Plasma talons that the army is heavy in? Also if RAS take plasma, I assume they can't assault after using it since it is-NOT- bike mounted?

 

Does Sam fit best with the Black Knights? Or do you keep him in the command squad? I'm just thinking with the dakka standard, he won't get many plasma cannon shots off with that command squad zipping around.

 

Also looking for more flyer/anti-flyer advice. It does sound like a good number of you take the Libby! I gotta figure out the best way to do that without screwing up my list.

[elphilo]

Yep, your Black Knights will do the heavy lifting in a Pure Ravenwing army. Which is why they'll get targeted first off, so you're going to have to protect them.

Black Knights are probably the best thing in our codex by the way

[facmanpob]

Ok so it sounds like no real upgrades for sergeants are a realistic option. Again though, this means Black Knights do most of the heavy lifting and the rest of it is "Hit and Run" to stay out of cc?

So most bikes RAS are carrying melta. I assume this is to offset the Plasma talons that the army is heavy in? Also if RAS take plasma, I assume they can't assault after using it since it is bike mounted?

Does Sam fit best with the Black Knights? Or do you keep him in the command squad? I'm just thinking with the dakka standard, he won't get many plasma cannon shots off with that command squad zipping around.

Also looking for more flyer/anti-flyer advice. It does sound like a good number of you take the Libby! I gotta figure out the best way to do that without screwing up my list.

RAS can assault after shooting any weapon as bikes are Relentless

I run melta bikes as they are a very good way of getting fast melta into an army, and they are cheap.....a 3 man melta suicide bike squad and MMAB are 155 points, can outflank, are 2 scoring units (should they survive!), are T5 and get a nice cover save if they turbo-boost.

Sammy is actually quite good with a RAS (at least initially), as he will give them Skilled Rider, improving their Jink cover save and allowing them to ignore difficult terrain.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Prot:

Many people here use the RWCS/BKs to do their Anti-Air work, it is not the best option out there but is the pure RW's best one.

Don't be afraid of having a few (or heaps) of Landspeeder Typhoons (with or without MM to taste) to help engage the odd problem target early in the game to protect our squishy bikers of all types. They are one of the more cost efficient units in the book too.

The real trick is how you want to  balance between them and point on bikers and RWBK/CSs everyones milage will vary.

 

On the topic of a bike Libby; I haven't run one so don't profess to be an expert but when nearly all my shooting is twin linked I save points by not taking one. I can see the point of a PFG toting dude, but if I take a second HQ it is nearly always an Int Chappy with Mace or Redemption to punch face with RWBK/CS retinue. I leave Sammy to harrass enemy devs and HS problems etc. from afar.

s

[Liberame]

I hardly ever use the primaris power on my libby unless its telepathy myself but to each there own. As for what I use for anti-air, mortis contemptor dreads keep me safe. If the store doesnt allow forgeworld rules, then they are my counts as broadsides with a terminator being my "tau commander" and 6 scouts being my "firewarriors".

[Tiger9gamer]

A regular chasis mortis dread is also a very fine addition to the DA. the rules are free on forgeworld, and it's only five points more than a normal dread.

[Prot]

I have to admit I'm still not sold on the Libby biker just because Sam and the bikes are a very expensive army that probably has model count issues to begin with.

 

I'm glad you guys confirmed no Sarge upgrades as I have been debating it.

 

I ask about the flyer issue because really I imagine in a tournament with this sort of list that a Heldrake is an absolute nightmare for this army. :)

[Liberame]

As a ravenwing player who continually fights triple helldrakes at tournaments, yes they will have you scooping models if you don't prepare for them.

[Prot]

Ok, fair enough but excuse me if I missed it but  how would you handle said tri-drake lists?

 

I know how I handle them with other lists, but the Nephilim seems really 'meh' and has mediocre armour.

 

Oh, and backing up a second I have now included the Shroud Speeder thing because the thought of having a 2+ cover is just too cool. Plus the other speeder variant seems really weak and overpriced. Am I wrong about this... on my experimental games that speeder seems too weak.

[FragEmAll]

The Vengeance speeder sucks for the points outlay. don't get it whatever you do.

 

I've never come up against triple drakes yet, but a good friend of mine is always going double drake vs me and I combat it with double Nephilim. to a certain extent it depends on the reserves rolls but it at least gives him pause for thought.

 

Just rely on them failing their grounded tests. Use the Nephilim to knocked them to the ground and then ravage them with melta and plasma fire from the bikes. that's the only way I can ever kill em - get them on the ground!

 

A shroud speeder is good to run alongside a Dakka Banner and a couple of RAS. I generally don't have the fast attack slots free for one though, as I got 2 x Nephilim and a Typhoon squad which does me alright.

[Liberame]

Not really sure how you can "force" a helldrake to go to the ground other than killing them as they can keep in zoom forever if they wish. I've stated how I handle triple drakes and that is with mortis contemptor dreads or broadsides depending on if I can use forgeworld or not. 2 Broadsides with missiles and a commander with tankhunter/missiles/target lock is 1.5-2 dead flyers a turn.