A cry for help brothers

[Sigvard]

Brothers, since the beginning of my playing 40k I have not done my Emperor proud. My win tally is a quarter of my defeat tally and I am struggling against Riptides, Necron Scythes and Walkers and Dark Angel flyers and Knights. I have been running the OMI like many suggest but then I have become unstuck. We have started playing 1500 point games recently and it hasbproved massively challenging.

 

So mighty warriors, what would you suggest and what is best in our dex for 1500 points.

 

Any advice is much appreciated.

[Dread]

Well I don't know if this will help you but my 1500 pt army is this:

Draigo

5 paladins- 1 apothecary, 1 incenartor, 1 psycannon and all have swords

2x 5 man units of termies- halbreds and psycannons  1 unit has Thrawn

either storm raven, land raider or Dread Knight

Adjusting the points to use one of the heavies each time. This is the list I use to counter Hell Drakes mainly, can't really kill them unless the dice roll good but I keep my 2+ save. This list was made of  that aggravation. Hope this helps.

[IndigoJack]

Best is a subjective term, but I'll post my list and explain how I use it.

 

HQ

Coteaz

 

Elites

5man purifiers w/ 3x halberds, 2x psycannons, psyback

 

Troops

2x 10man GKSS w/ 2x psycannons, psybolt ammo, rhino

 

2x 6man bolter acolytes, psyback

 

FA

Stormraven w/ TLMM and TLLC

 

HS

2x psyfleman

 

 

I keep the acolytes in reserve and deploy their vehicles empty. One unit of acolytes hangs out in the stormraven. I hide in the vehicles against things like heldrakes or other cover-removing nasty weapons until I've eliminated the threat. Otherwise, I walk up behind them and use them to block fire lanes. The acolytes in reserve are to hold objectives. The footsloggers walk onto backfield objectives and the stormraven guys jump out turn 5 to claim a far objective. For AA, I use the raven, psyflemen, and if I have to, the psycannons. This list has not been tested agianst triple drakes, but hasn't lost against any of the many double drake lists I fought against (CSM is heavy at my FLGS, always has been).

[Aethernitas]

Why exactly would you embark a middle distance shooting unit like acolytes in the Raven? To drop them on an objective if the Raven survivers? Why no kite the Puris for melee and charge from the Raven? I'm curious cuz it's so different from what I would do :)

[jeffersonian000]

My 1500pt core army is an all TDA Ghostwing:

 

Mordrak + 3 Ghosts w/ halberds, banner

 

Librarian w/ staff, teleport homer

 

10man GKT w/ psycannons, 4 hammers, 5 halberds, banner

 

10man GKT w/ psycannons, 4 hammers, 6 halberds

 

To these guys I can tailor their loadout with Psybolt Ammo, more Ghosts, codex powers, skulls, or even swap out tge psycannons for incinerator or psilencers (magnetized). Quicksilver is starting to look like a better option pair with Warp Rift, so I might be swapping out the halberds for swords (magnetized).

 

In a pinch, I can drop the second GKT squad for GKSS and a Stormraven, or add a squad of GKIS for bigger games.

 

SJ

[Sigvard]

@ Aethernitas what is it you would do?

 

@ jeffersonian. I have always liked Mordrak but have never tried him. Does he work well? Also do you use your SR as a Flyer to tackle flyers?

 

@ Aethernitas what is it you would do?

 

@ jeffersonian. I have always liked Mordrak but have never tried him. Does he work well? Also do you use your SR as a Flyer to tackle flyers?

[Aethernitas]

I would take advantage of the fact that the Stormraven can get your assault units anywhere you want in turn three and lets them charge as it is an assault vehicle. Therefore I would embark a unit with acceptable melee capabilities into the Raven.

 

I would actually combat squad one of the 10man PAGK squads and transport both with the Raven - that lets you charge 2 different units on embarking and pretty much ensures that you get a lot of shots into the rear of enemy vehicles. 8 S5 shots and 2 S7 shots per 5man squad against AV10 nets a little over 2 hullpoints and the chance to destroy it outright.

 

This way you use the Raven as a force-multiplier for the PAGK squad. Now compare that to what a 6man stormbolter henchman squad could do. Better use those to camp objectives.

 

edit: Concerning the Stormraven as AA Flyer - it is amazing. The only downside is that you loose one turn with hovering and disembarking when transporting units. Apart from that even the standard MM + AC setup is quite deadly against flyers and with hurricane bolters and psybolt ammunition it becomes a real AA beast.

[Sigvard]

Sweet! Thanks man I like the idea of using the Raven as hard hitting delivery system. I do have one question, what are PAGK? I am not the biggest lover of Henchmen and much prefer to draw my strength from my chapter than the inquisition.

[Aethernitas]

PAGKs - Power Armour Grey Knights - so your run of the mill GK squads and if you combat squad a 10man unit you can transport them in the same vehicle but charge and shoot different targets when disembarking/charging.

[IndigoJack]

There are a couple problems with shoving expensive GK units in the stormraven. First, that's 2-3 turns (depending on if you're in range turn 1 or not) of shooting that you're going to lose out on. Make no mistake, GKs are a shooting army first, and assault army second. We still have some of the best midrange shooting in the game, it's a shame to shove them into a stormraven and lose out on it. 

 

Next, shoving a full squad of GKSS into the raven with the intent on assaulting turn 3 is putting a lot of eggs into that basket. A lucky interceptor shot could bring you down, causing you to lose almost a third of your points turn two. Not a position you want to be in. Really, they don't even have to bring you down to hurt you, locked velocity from an imobiillized result will do practically the same thing to you.

 

While the bolter acolytes aren't doing much in the stormraven, they're a dirt cheap (30 points!) scoring unit that shows up late game to claim a far away objective after I've nearly crippled my opponents ability to do anything about it. Then again, if I lose them, oh well. The storm raven is just one piece of my AA component, and I have more scoring units to take the place of the acolytes.

 

Honestly, the reason this army has worked so well for me is that there is no linchpin unit that victory hinges on. Everything works together to achieve a very heavy hitting shooting army that's difficult to take down in just a couple turns. I hope that helps you to understand my reasoning :)

[number6]

I think it's appropriate to put assaulty units in the Stormraven, but you don't want to spend too many points on it. As already mentioned: too many eggs in one basket just makes for too juicy a target that -- if eliminated right away -- can really hurt your chances. So keep your investment cheap.

 

Secondly, try and ensure that any unit embarked inside is either dirt cheap -- meaning henchman -- or has an invul save -- meaning TDA. That way when the stormraven blows up (mine always does, and usually on the very turn it arrives! :lol: ) you either aren't out much or you'll get a few survivors that can carry on for you.

 

Generally, I stick a 5-man terminator unit inside. It's relatively cheap, assaulty enough to make a rapid-response support attack -- the perfect role for a unit coming on from reserves -- and it can weather getting exploded out of the flying coffin. (I always have a couple or more guys left standing!)

 

I also find myself using the deep strike option a lot so my stormraven doesn't have to risk skimming along the ground at all. And again, TDA guys are very unlikely to take wounds from the inevitable scatter that results from disembarking in this fashion.

 

My $0.02.

[IndigoJack]

I think it's appropriate to put assaulty units in the Stormraven, but you don't want to spend too many points on it. As already mentioned: too many eggs in one basket just makes for too juicy a target that -- if eliminated right away -- can really hurt your chances. So keep your investment cheap.

Secondly, try and ensure that any unit embarked inside is either dirt cheap -- meaning henchman -- or has an invul save -- meaning TDA. That way when the stormraven blows up (mine always does, and usually on the very turn it arrives! ) you either aren't out much or you'll get a few survivors that can carry on for you.

The problem with TDA in the stormraven is that you're still investing 400+ pts on a unit. In a 1500 game, That's just too much. You're talking death star point ratio and you're not even getting a good deathstar out of it. If you have to stick something assaulty in there, I'd go for DCA/Crusaders. They also have an invul and are cheaper.

Generally, I stick a 5-man terminator unit inside. It's relatively cheap, assaulty enough to make a rapid-response support attack -- the perfect role for a unit coming on from reserves -- and it can weather getting exploded out of the flying coffin. (I always have a couple or more guys left standing!)

I also find myself using the deep strike option a lot so my stormraven doesn't have to risk skimming along the ground at all. And again, TDA guys are very unlikely to take wounds from the inevitable scatter that results from disembarking in this fashion.

My $0.02.

If you're going to deepstrike out the back, why bother with the stormraven? most GK units can deepstrike, and you can't assault after jumping out of the raven.

[jeffersonian000]

I've been playing a Ghostwing for awhile now, and Mordrak works quite well for me. Primarily, he is the vehicle that transports the Librarian exactly where I want him. In addition, Mordrak is a GM, so he brings Grand Strategy and Psychic Communion, not to mention all those Ghost Knights! Functionally, I treat Mordrak and his Ghosts as a single creature with the ability to spawn more attacks and potential armor saves any time he sheds a wound.

 

As to the Stormraven, I tend to use a different loadout than most, namely the Missile Launcher and Twin-linked Lascannon as a fast dniper for tank hunting as well as dogfighting other flyers. Works well with my playstyle. However, given a chance to tailor my list, I'll swap to the more general AC/HB/Hur with Psybolts for anti-unit firepower if needed.

 

SJ

[number6]

The problem with TDA in the stormraven is that you're still investing 400+ pts on a unit. In a 1500 game, That's just too much. You're talking death star point ratio and you're not even getting a good deathstar out of it. If you have to stick something assaulty in there, I'd go for DCA/Crusaders. They also have an invul and are cheaper.

I keep the total at 405 pts. And actually, I agree: at 1500 pts, termies inside is a bit too steep. 1750+ pts -- which is the normal level at which I play -- I have found it to be acceptable. Assaulty henchman with invul saves is, of course, perfect. It meets the "cheap" and "invul save" criteria I outlined, does it not?

If you're going to deepstrike out the back, why bother with the stormraven? most GK units can deepstrike, and you can't assault after jumping out of the raven.

It's never my first choice, obviously. But sometimes it turns out to be the best option considering what is waiting for the stormraven on the ground if it skims instead of zooms. I would never put guys inside with the primary objective of deep striking! Again, the point I was making was that it is another reason why the unit you pack inside the stormraven should have an invul save.

[Sigvard]

Thanks guys the advise so far is top stuff. As to the combat squadding GK's its a great idea and I can see wgat is meant by ys being a mid range army. How ever my opponents are strong long range army and moderately poor CC armies so trying to outshoot them hasn't worked. I think I am feeling strong delivery systems as a preferred choice. Unfortunately as stated, I am happy to use OMI but henchman do nothing for me and that may be to my detriment but that shall have to be the case.

 

If was to look at having a unit carried in would a SR be better or a Land Raider?

[jeffersonian000]

If you mean PAGK, Rhinos and Razorbacks are better. If its TDA, neither are good for the points commitment, as you are almost always better off either footslogging or deep striking. The key to non-hench GK is getting to bolter range and staying in bolter range until you know you can win an Assault in your opponent's turn. GKT are your Assault troops, GKSS are your Scouts, and GKIS are your high-mobility tank hunters/firebase/objective grabbers.

 

That said, I've been known to run triple-Land Raider lists with combat squaded PAGK riding along while their Psycannons sit in cover holding objectives, because tanks are fun and big tanks are big fun.

 

SJ

[number6]

Land Raiders got a boost in potency and survivability in the transition to 6th edition. Furthermore, most people have decided to start fielding more infantry and more anti-infantry weapons, including plasma, rather than light vehicles and vehicle killing weapons (meaning transports and meltas). Generally speaking, this shift in the "meta" also means an average boost in the survivability of a land raider because, usually, your opponent will not have as many tools capable of dealing with it as they might have had in 5th edition. Your local mileage may vary.

I look at the choice between stormraven and land raider this way.

* How important is it for me to have a flyer in the game? Will I need to be capable of fighting off at least an enemy flyer or two? If so, preferenece to Stormraven.

* How important is it for me to have a rapid response/counterattack unit? A stormraven comes in from reserve and can have a quick, brutal, game-changing effect. A land raider should rarely start from reserve, and thus your opponent can always see it coming. However, as I pointed out, the lander raider is likely to be more survivable. But that can depend. Which transport meets your tactical needs more? Choose accordingly.

* Do you want to virtually guarantee the delivery of an assault unit safely? The land raider is likely to be a better choice for you.

* Do you want more long range firepower on the table from turn 1? (Don't ever take the redeemer, IMHO. Always stock raider or the crusader variant.) If so, perhaps you should prefer the land raider.

[Sigvard]

Thanks for the advice from the both of you. I think I am going to be using it in the upcoming battles. My only concern with the Land Raider is that as Necrons are one of my common opponents I am concerned it will get glanced to death with Gauss.

 

In terms of the Storm Raven I have been reading the rules again and am I right in thinking it can fire at 2 different targets? So Skyfire on a Flyer and  then use Power of the Machine Spirit to Assault Cannon some infantry?

[IndigoJack]

well the flyer either has skyfire or it doesn't. So either all weapons fire at flyers and snapfire at ground targets or fire at ground targets and snapfire at air targets. As far as land raiders go, if you want to include them at 1500, I wouldn't do more than one. Two or more really start to get in the way of making a balanced list and you're not getting a whole lot in return from them. Sure, they can shoot things, but GKs have no problem doing that. The assault ramp is nice, but again, GKs greatest strength is in shooting, not assault. Every turn that your GKs are inside is a turn that your psycannons aren't killing things. As far as AV14 goes, I've found that rhinos generally last long enough to get to midfield and shoot. GKs are still one of the strongest midfield shooting armies (beaten only by necrons) and understanding how to get to midfield and use it to control the board is the way win with GKs IMO. I'm not telling you to take a land raider, but I am strongly discouraging multiple land raiders and I'm asking to strongly consider what that land raider is doing with respect to the rest of your army.

[jeffersonian000]

On flyers, yes, Stormravens can target up to 2 units via Power of the Machine Spirit, which is best used when you take Hurricane sponsons (5 total weapons can be fired, the 3 hull mounted + 2 missiles). However, all must be Skyfire or normal ground fire, not a mix on the two.

 

On Land Raiders, never take one large model. Always take a minimum of two, although the two or more do not need to be the same type of model, but each needs to generate the same level of attention from your opponent. This increases the survival of each unit as you force your opponent to choose which one to focus down, split their fire, or ignore. As to Necrons, they are surprisingly inefficient at killing AV 14 with gauss weapons, especially AV 14 with 4 hull points. I actually prefer running Redeemers with Multi-Melta against Necrons, tank shocking to bunch their units for AP 3 templet doom!

 

SJ

[Castellan Alaric]

i might suggest the nemesis dreadknight here. while in my last game he was all but useless, he could be a unit you need to take the heat off of your scoring (and shooting) units. now, the raven should be able to take care of flyers, but the tesla weapons are tricky with 'crons. an ADL with a quad gun could help that, but with GK my biggest problem was finding the proper unit (or character) to shoot it without wasting the whole units shooting. the dreadknight can jump over to your opponents lines and cause crazy shenanigans while they deal with a big sword and flamer toting MC in their backfield. against tau (which from your OP is one of your trouble armies) he will slaughter their troops, which is what you should focus on killing. riptides are massive gun platforms and they can have a devastating amount of firepower. if your opponent runs his riptide with drones, kill a drone and make him take a leadership test. if he fails, that MC is running 3d6 away! shunt an interceptor unit next to him with 2xpsycannons and psybolts and watch him wither under tons of shots. make it take saves and it will die :D . what is your model collection and maybe we could give you some more suggestions?

 

my 2 cents

[jeffersonian000]

I've used shunting to place a unit of Interceptors behind an enemy unit about to break, and watched as the enemy unit fell back out of CC with my GKT and into my Interceptors, wiping out the remaining enemy models. Can't plan for it every time, but when it happens, its awesome! While I don't have a NDK yet, I'm looking forward to adding at least 2 to my army options.

 

SJ

[Sigvard]

@ Castellan I have the following.

 

20 x PAGK

10 x TDA GK

10 x Interceptors

2 x NDK

1 x SR with MM and AC

10 x Dedicated PsyCan PAGK

 

Then OMI with multiple options and same with GKGM/BC

[Castellan Alaric]

hmmm well i've played most of my games up at 2k, but i would suggest probably not running both DK's at 1500, but having the storm raven for sure. maybe do something like this, no codex so just spitballin:

OMI- TDA (with a strike squad

strikes

strikes - psyback

10 GKT

raven

 

solide colletion of troop choices with 10 terminators and the raven. what do you think?

[Sigvard]

So OMI

 

2 Strike Squads - One with Razorback

10 Terminators and the Raven.

 

If i'm correct, then I really like it. I am big fan of making use of the Chapter rather than any Inqusitorial stuff. Apart from OMI's. How many PAGK's would you have in the strike squads?