How do I beat THIS list?

[Robert2004]

Hey,

 

Have been talking a lot recently about the heldrakes and the list I've faced at my local meta and what is in it and how I can beat the list. Tonight I faced it the second time in two weeks and lost disastrously to it, I downed the three drakes but the melee troops just ran a mock through my lines. This is the list he is using, how can I beat it...

 

Chaos Lord, Mark of Khorne, gift of mutation, juggernaught, axe of blind fury, sigil of corruption-180

9 Cultists, 1 Cultist Champion-50
9 Cultists, 1 Cultist Champion-50

Heldrake, Baleflamer-170
Heldrake, Baleflamer-170
Heldrake, Baleflamer-170

3 Obliterators, Mark of Nurgle-228

Destroyer Lord, Mind Shackle, sempiternal weave- 160

5 Necrons immortals-85
Night Scythe-100
5 Necrons Immortals-85
Night Scythe-100

6 Wraiths, 1 whip coil- 220

Annihilation barge-90

 

[Robert2004]

A quick run down of what I had in my army went as follows;

 

Capt, art armor, storm bolter, power sword.

 

2x 10m tac squads, rhino, razorback various weapons.

 

Assault terminators, 2 LC 3 TH/SS

 

Devastator squad 4xML, Aegis defense line Quad gun.

 

Stormraven gun ship lascannon and multi melta.

 

sternguard 4x combi melta, drop pod.

 

TAU ALLIES

 

Commander, veolcity tracker, ion blaster, plasma rifle, drone controller, neurochip.

 

2x crisis suits velocity tracker, missile pods, plasma rifle, fushion blaster. 2x shield drones.

 

6x fire warriors

 

4xML drones.

[Ishagu]

Lol that guy is cheesy...

 

Use something like this:

 

Lysander + 5 Hammernators

2 Tac Squads, Plasma Guns, Missile Launchers, Rhinos

Sternguard in drop pod

2 Vindicators

Stormraven with melta and lascannon + Stormtalon with Skyhammers as escort

 

Tau allies as described above, or IG with valkyrie/vendetta...

 

 

You need to dominate the air but also smash his infantry with heavy support. You should field 3 flyers at least.

Put an Aegis round your IG/Tau allies and also consider an Icarus lascannon...

[Robert2004]

Yeah bought a stormtalon tonight to go along with my stormraven and have been looking at lysander to help out tanking and killing stuff for sure as a character. A fella was selling a vindicator (old school) for £10 last Thursday and I said no, may have to call him and say yes bring it down lol! They would be bloody awesome against what he has actually, the wraiths and lord are all bunched up together and the s10 weapon would be a serious threat to him.

 

I may need to make some more purchases this week... Thanks for the advice keep it coming!

[Ishagu]

Vindicators should be enough to clear his infantry but make sure to defend the tanks from his oblits!

 

Make sure you field 2 btw.

[eiglepulper]

Old school Vindicator, eh? I take it you mean the one with the metal parts that if you drop it on your foot it'll hurt!?

 

Old school or not, that Str10 cannon on the front scares the hell out of people. It tends to make the vehicle a priority target though, but it has reasonable armour on the front so not too shabby in protecting itself.

 

Yes, two would be a better bet. It's forcing your opponent to sort out his priorities about what to take down from your list, and yours already has a Stormraven and now apparently a Stormtalon as well for him to handle? Ouch.

 

Firing the large blast onto the Wraiths and Lord (you mean Destroyer Lord, I assume?) would be nasty indeed, but the Wraiths have an invulnerable save and the Lord can't be instant killed by Str10. He would still take a wound though even with Sempiternal Weave.

 

E.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You don't beat that list, you beat the player.  In the parking lot.  With a baseball bat.

 

Threats of violence aside, I'll say that that is kind of list I expect to see at a tournament.  If these are friendly pick up games, I would literally tell him I would not play him (I personally would use. . . harsher. . . language, but this is a family-friendly forum after all).  Fighting that is no fun, which after all is kind of the point of any game.

[Robert2004]

Ha ha ha I thought about the car park after last night he just tabled me, done a lot worse than the last game. This is the list he is taking to Q-Con (Massive 40k tournament in Belfast this weekend coming) it is also his list he is taking to Serbia for the 6 nations thing so its defiantly a tournament list. It was an arranged pick up game tho I picked him up and we went to the gaming center lol, maybe I'll not pick him up next time eh?! lol.

 

Jokes aside however, serious tactical advice against this list guys? A whirwind arrived today in the post for me and along with my stormtalon I may buy the old school vindicator on Thursday also to see what I can muster against this because its bloody nasty. 

 

Yeah the old metal one which would hurt your foot if you dropped it ha ha, don't love the look of the model but as you've said the s10 gun is scary. Yes his destroyer lord.

[Zombie P]

This looks like it has quite a small footprint on the board first turn? What is normally deployed? 

 

On the vindicator front, 2 is a must. I like to use mine to be bullish. I throw them at the enemy, normally making them panic and dedicate too much fire towards it. They are cheap, like really cheap, so dont be upset when they die. From YOUR opponents point of view he will probably just wait back away from its 30" first turn threat range, then vector strike it to death. AV11 on the sides really hurt, and if he is an experienced player which he definitely sounds like, then he will just out maneuver and then demolish your vidis. Although, at the very least, it will give you a form of area denial, a nice 30" bubble around your vidis where he dare not deploy.

 

I almost feel like suggesting a drop pod assault against this list. If you can table him first turn, i mean, most of the mean stuff is air based, so that is stuck until T2 at the very earliest. I cant imagine him deploying the immortals, they are way too useful being teleported out of the night scythes.

 

I'm not too familiar with the tau, so I can't comment on that, but these are my thoughts.

 

ZP 

[eiglepulper]

Looking at that list of his, there is a large amount of dangerous units included in it. To me, that suggests a Target Saturation Army List: he has basicaly given you too many important targets for you to be able to deal with enough of them early enough before he lands in your lines and starts to rip you apart in CC.

 

I've a couple of questions for you to ponder:

 

1) Ask yourself: why did you concentrate - I assume you did, so forgive me if I'm wrong in that - on taking down his Heldrakes? (Congrats indeed for removing all three, btw.). I know how dangerous those Baleflamers are, so was it a case of "I remember they're lethal so I must do all I can to remove them", ie they turned into an all-consuming "obsession"?

2) If you hadn't concentrated on them, would you have been able to deal significant blows to other elements of his list?

 

One of the things I try to remember to do in my games is to follow these directives:

 

1) What is in my opponent's list that will hurt me the most? eg Devastator units, Vindicators, Stormravens, etc. Take them down before they take me down, or else make sure that I render their firepower less powerful by using careful deployment or target denial moves.

2) Where are his fast-moving units - they are likely to be heavy-hitters for CC, or could be fast with decent firepower

3) Take out the transports quickly. This forces a march across the table onto my guns.

4) Don't always feel you have to shoot. Sometimes a redeployment can be a better idea, and now that the likes of Rapid Fire weapons always get to fire to their maximum range even if they've moved, there should still be at least one shot from each weapon that is still in range.

 

E.

[minigun762]

I'd be really tempted to utilize a Vulcan count as and use MM as AA.

AP1 gives you good odds of outright destroying the drake or removing it's flamer. Same with the Scythes. You're also instant gibbing wraiths.

 

AV13 Dreads would be hard for him to kill and could tie up wraith squads. Again, flamer and melta options are a bonus.

[Robert2004]

Yeah I defiantly did focus on the heldrakes since the last game we played they done so much damage, they done the same this game when two came on wiped a drop pod and sternguard out with their vector strikes then he used his night scythe to blow up a rhino and then flamed 5 of the marines in the crater it left. I panicked and made them my target when in reality they had probably done most of their damage already, when his CC units hadn't so perhaps a little less focus on the heldrakes next time?

 

He did tell me of his mate who runs a demon army and he just ignores the heldrakes and smashes the rest of his troops to pieces, then holds tight over the objectives and manages to win. He had 4/5 flyers up the last game they play but lost the game as the other guy had more objectives. I've got the stormtalon, a whirlwind (which I will use as a hyperos, he said its fine too) and that vindicator to get ready before out next game. There is also a lysander in the local store which I could buy and make him really think about what I've got.

 

Trouble is his list is totally anti space marines and he totally over kills it on the heldrakes, I mean three of them is just stupid even when I decide to space out and hold a rhino in reserves he still manages to utterly wipe out what I've got. I need to protect my tau suits a little more and perhaps mount everyone inside transports and don't get out until the heldrakes have moved onto the field?

 

I fear that when I focus too much on AA his CC troops rip me to shreds, perhaps a 10m sternguard with lysander drop pod into his lines and an assault terminator squad to teleport beside them the following turn isn't a bad thing?...

 

Edit; a vulcan? sorry still a bit of a noob here.

 

Yes the multi melta on my stormraven one shot killed a heldrake in the game, it was amazing. Pity I declared the lascannon machine spirit at the sythe first and only got a glancing hit and then all other weapons on the drake which died after shooting one. Ah I have a standard dreadnaught model, could always use it as an AV13 one.....

[eiglepulper]

I'm guessing that "Vulcan" is referring to the Spec Character Vulkan He'stan?

 

The thing with Daemon armies is that iirc everything has an invulnerable save, so the Baleflamer wouldn't be as great a threat to them. With SM, there's no invulnerable save on the standard Marines, and their armour as you know is bypassed by the AP of the Baleflamer, and that is why it is so lethal against MEqs.

 

Actually, that list of his would be totally anti pretty much everything, tbh. Seriously high firepower rates, good combat units, AP1/2/3/ all covered, force multipliers with the Tesla rules on the Necron Flyers' guns (you get 4 twin-linked shots normally, then the force multiplier is the extra hits you get for free if you roll 6s to hit) and on the Chaos Lord's close combat weapon, Preferred Enemy on another of his Necron combat units - yep, you were up against it, Robert.

 

However, this is the sort of game where you can take valuable lessons away with you. There wasn't a wasted point in his list. Everything had a purpose. Synergy was there too with the mix of AP/firepower rate/CC ability/speed. Ok, so yes this was an army designed to rip other armies apart. Maybe it wouldn't be the most fun list to play against for some people. At the same time, as long as you and your opponent enjoyed the game that is the most important thing for both of you. 

 

You're also coming away from the game looking at what you have in your arsenal and thinking "What do I need to add to my collection in order to be able to field a more effective list?" That's always a good thing. Keep going, dude....you're getting there!

 

E.

[minigun762]

Vulcan (or is it Vulkan?) Is a SM special character who twin links Melta and Flamer weapon.

[Ishagu]

Vulkan is meh imo, though if you build the whole army around him specifically it can work well...

[minigun762]

Vulkan is meh imo, though if you build the whole army around him specifically it can work well...

Could be, I don't remember his stats outside of his army trait.

 

Even without Vulkan, I think I'd rather have a MM over a ML.

[Robert2004]

I've seriously considered getting Lysander and sticking him in a drop pod with 10 sternguard and just killing something big, maybe even combat squad and pepper a squad with hellfire rounds while the 4 Combi melta guys take out the battle barge!! I think now that I have a storm talon, stormraven and the aegis defense line I could perhaps drop the tau for some other big scary like assault terminators with a librarian or chaplain in terminator armor??

 

My whirlwind arrived today and I've built the stormtalon so we will see, perhaps I'll issue another challenge for the middle of next week and see how he fares against the new additions to my army....

[facmanpob]

I've read both this thread and the other thread you posted about facing this guy, "Gary the hobby killer" as he is apparently known, and I have a question. Are you actually enjoying playing against him? If you are, then that's fine. If not, then just play against someone who doesn't run lists that smell like camembert. If everyone stopped playing against him, he would be forced to change his list to something that isn't quite so cheesy.

Tournament lists are fine, but that's where they should stay. If he's playing these in pick-up games then I'd find someone else to play.

Just my tuppence

[Robert2004]

I've read both this thread and the other thread you posted about facing this guy, "Gary the hobby killer" as he is apparently known, and I have a question. Are you actually enjoying playing against him? If you are, then that's fine. If not, then just play against someone who doesn't run lists that smell like camembert. If everyone stopped playing against him, he would be forced to change his list to something that isn't quite so cheesy.

Tournament lists are fine, but that's where they should stay. If he's playing these in pick-up games then I'd find someone else to play.

Just my tuppence

You have a very good point and one I've decided to give some thought to. To be honest no one enjoys getting their teeth kicked in so I've not been enjoying the two games as much as another regular game I play with another lad. The chaos list is in training for a tournament so I guess he needs to see how it plays etc etc... I want to play in tournaments some day too so maybe its good practice for me also?

I'm 0-2 now against this and where as I may not enjoy it as much I sure as hell want to beat the list!!

[Teetengee]

So I just realized I probably should have posted this on this thread rather than the last one but here is my two cents (4 now I suppose).

 

 

So I haven't had a chance to test it yet, but something tells me the answer to baledrakes is terminators/land raiders.

The baledrake does a lot of AP3 which against termies is wasted points, so it should ideally be less effective, (any given hit from the heldrake will kill a termy only 5/36 times). Moreover termies and land raiders go very well together and land raiders are immune to the baledrake set up. I would maximize land raider/termie percentage of your starting on the board troops and keep the rest in reserves. Also, go second. That means that his heldrakes will get to a board they can do little about, or are at least inefficient at dealing with. Use anti-flamer positioning for non-termie (especially) you have. If you are using allies that are cheaper then marines I would put them on the field to start with, especially if shooty, because you will want to shoot down his other units early and if they have bad armor saves he is wasting the drake on them anyways. Focus his non drake units. If you can wipe his troops then you will have a much easier time of it. Also I would consider using gk termies as allies as they are troops (aka scoring termies), meaning he has to try to deal with them. But his army will be bad at dealing with them, all the better for you.

Remember I haven't had a chance to try this out but it seems like it might prove effective. To beat large amounts of AP3 it seems to make sense to avoid 3+ armor saves as AP3 weapons tend to come on expensive units and are wasted on 2+s obviously, but also on much worse armor saves as he is paying for useless stats, which in a sense is just him starting with a smaller army for no particular benfit.

 

 

Also I would go with a land raider redeemer if possible. Throw some good old AP 3 back at him. That should easily wipe his troops too.

 

So if you are looking for advice on your army list I would suggest dropping the tau for a grey knight termie squad or two if points allow in a lr redeemer (with delicious psyflame ammo if you would like) and maybe grab a squad of angry inquisitorialness for hq (or a grand master, although you are really only doing the GK thing for the scoring termies.) Although I haven't looked up $$ for any of that recently so I don't know if that gels with your budget.

Alternatively just grab some cheap(er) plastic termies and field elites, perhaps with another unit of tacts to really fill out your scoring unit possibilities.

 

If you go the elite route I would focus down those oblits as soon as possible rather than the drakes. They are more flexible and can pour out ap 2. More importantly perhaps, they are much easier to focus down as they can be hit normally. If you can eliminate them with those combi-meltas you will not regret using the oneshot for it. (although combi plasma might actually be better if you are not expecting to see many heavy vehicles.)

 

Other options might be IG tarpits, just have so many units he cannot possibly kill them all, while you take all the objectives. (also marbo dropping in and ruining someones day with his demo charge looks like it will have a good chance of paying for his 65 points against these sorts of lists.)

[Teetengee]

A fully specced out fortress of solitude might do it too but those template firing point rules will still make you sad indeed. Although the chance of wiping 1 or 2 drakes out using the icarus before they can even hurt you is quite tempting.