Deathwing VEHICLE Upgrade

[Rik Lightstar]

Having been considering doing an all terminator force for some time, could you guys let me know what you think of the Deathwing Vehicle upgrade, to me it seems over-pointed.

 

Are the LandRaider Variants available as Heavy Support options? (Codex at home, me at work, curious at lunchtime)

 

Thanks,

 

Rik

[Pbenner]

Yes, they are.  

 

I don't find LRs effective in general for most things (Enough people spam Las / Lance / Melta in my area) that they're just an extra piece of mobile terrain.  

 

The few times I run a LR (for :cusss and grins) and have had an extra 30 points I've taken it.  It's saved me from 2 explodes results in one game.  

 

Paul

[elphilo]

Its a useful upgrade when being penetrated by AP3+ type of shots. But when its AP1/2 that reroll will kill you most of the time :(

 

Regardless I still take it on Land Raiders that are for my Terminators. Anything else I don't bother. 

[Master Avoghai]

Actually it's indeed overpointed.

 

To me it's more a matter of compensation for taking them as dedicated transport that really the correct price for the option. Re-roll the 1s? Cool... All my weapons are twinlinked... <_<

 

Most of the weapon that will do a penetrating hit against your LR are melta weapon hence AP1 so...

And when it comes to several LR it means several times 30pts... I prefer giving them MM...

[march10k]

Y'all're high.  It costs 1/8 as much as the tank does naked, and it improves your chances of surviving catastrophe by at least 1/2 (2/3 for AP2, 5/6 for AP3).   

 

 

Its a useful upgrade when being penetrated by AP3+ type of shots. But when its AP1/2 that reroll will kill you most of the time

 

You're not supposed to reroll anything but destroyed results, except when you're in a position where an immobilized result will cost you the game (or the weapon isn't AP1/2).  And you're overstating your case to an almost sinful degree.  Rerolling an AP1 pen will kill you half of the time.  Rerolling AP2 kills you 1/3 of the time.  That's hardly "most of the time."  Hell, you could probably be fogiven for rerolling an "immobilized" result from AP2 even when it's possible to win without the tank being mobile...a 50% chance of improving your situation is NOT chopped liver.

 

If you look at it from a perspective that it doubles the number of melta shots required to blow up your land raider, and you make a solemn vow to stay away from any unit that has more than 2-3 meltas, a 1/8 premium is chicken feed.  Is the upgrade an auto-include?  No.  But it's not overpriced, either.

 

 

 Re-roll the 1s?

Totally not the point.  That's just useless fluff, and almost certainly a "freebie" that didn't figure into the points cost...if it did, say at 5 points, 25 points for venerable is undercosted.

 

 

Most of the weapon that will do a penetrating hit against your LR are melta weapon hence AP1 so...

Let me finish that thought for you.  AP1 weapons have a 50% chance on pen to destroy the tank outright.  The upgrade reduces that to 25%.   Against any given shot, sure, you might still blow up, but over time, a 12% premium to blow up 50% less often is cheap.  I might balk at 50 points, though.

[shabbadoo]

^ That.  The Deathwing Vehicle upgrade makes a points sink tank that much more survivable.  The upgrade is appropriately costed though, as it is utterly passive, and does nothing unless the vehicle gets penetrated (and that isn't going to happen too often except at very close range).  Good vehicle wargear, but it won't come into play that often, but when it does you will be thankful for having it.   On Dreadnoughts you will see the Deathwing Vehicle upgrade being way more useful, as Dreadnoughts will take penetrating hits much more often than Land Raider will.  Excellent Dreadnought upgrade.

[Master Avoghai]

Shabadoo sumed up what I think nicely.

 

The problem is it's 30pts that may be useful IF you play against an army with melta weapon AND those weapons are at half range AND they hit AND they penetrate AND they don't roll under 4+ (and in march10k's list you add IF you fail the 4++ save from the field)

 

Fact is with 40k meta in v6, you're more likely to kill a LR with glancing than with a pen hit and that 30pts for it is a bit expensive.

 

To me it's like paying 30 pts for giving Belial the opportunity to reroll a lookout sir under a precision shoot...

[march10k]

Shabadoo sumed up what I think nicely.

Fact is with 40k meta in v6, you're more likely to kill a LR with glancing than with a pen hit and that 30pts for it is a bit expensive.

To me it's like paying 30 pts for giving Belial the opportunity to reroll a lookout sir under a precision shoot...

If your plan is to glance an AV14, shielded, tank to death, and my plan only requires that the tank live till the bottom of turn two, I think we can both wind up getting what we want, lol. Espeically if you're glancing my tank with lascannons and full-range meltas (my termies would be eternally grateful )

As for the Belial analogy, the cost would scale to more like 24 points, and AP2 precision shots are just a tiny bit less common than penetrating hits against AV14...not to mention that Belial has more than one wound, and the crusader only one structure point...

I agree with shabadoo, too. Especially when he says :

it won't come into play that often, but when it does you will be thankful for having it.

The thing is...when I don't need it, I'm not regretting the 60 points "wasted" because my tanks are running through the enemy like a beat ape runs through the jungle. 'tis better to have and not need than to need and not have!

[BigGumbo]

A minor point to consider: it's also 30points per tank to avoid giving up additional VPs in Big Guns Never Tire. Additional VPs that could make all the difference...

[Master Avoghai]

If your plan is to glance an AV14, shielded, tank to death, and my plan only requires that the tank live till the bottom of turn two, I think we can both wind up getting what we want, lol. Espeically if you're glancing my tank with lascannons and full-range meltas (my termies would be eternally grateful )

First let me remind that I'm in the camp of people thinking that your list with 2LR and a bike with refractor field is a good list really hard to play against.

 

What I'm just saying is that, even if you make re-roll the effects, as long as you have 4hits (no matter the type), your LR is dead.

 

In the case of your list, the only way to deal with your LRs is to send them massive melta shoots like poded vets or fire dragons or any such units... Because you'll need to stop the LR before it will reach the lines. And you'll need lots of shoot to hit and to pass the 4+ saves ... If your opponent rely on a single melta shoot like a poded ven dread he's wrong because its less than 20% chance to destroy it (1/2 to make a pen hit, 1/2 that this pen hit destroy the tank, 5/6 to hit).

The other solution is bad luck that make less than 4 hits and then rely on the penetrating hits result...

 

So finally you've invested 60 pts to compensate really occasional situations... I'm not saying its totally unuseful just expensive for occasional situations.

[march10k]

What I'm just saying is that, even if you make re-roll the effects, as long as you have 4hits (of the penetrating, AP1 type), your LR is dead.

Fixed that for you

Because you'll need to stop the LRs before it they will reach the lines.

And that

I'm not saying its totally unuseful just expensive for occasional situations.

Where you see rare occurences, I see the worst thing the enemy can do to upset my plan. Sure, even if both tanks live, I'm fighting an uphill battle the way that DW always do, but destroying the tanks early is catastrophic to me...and it's what almost everyone I play against does his level best to accomplish. That makes it a little more than just an occasional situation, they're trying to make me need that reroll every turn of every game...especially before my termies hit the board...they don't have anything else to do!

Anyway...I'll go back to what I said before...I want to play ten straight games without ever needing to reroll a pen result. Or even three straight games. If I'm not getting penned, then either I'm not losing my tanks, or the enemy is glancing them to death with anti-terminator weapons...and kraks. It takes 36 BS4 krak missiles to glance a crusader to death, by the way... and 72 with the shield up. If glancing me to death truly is more common than killing me with a pen, that's really, really good news. Cause missiles won't do it, which leaves AP1/2 weapons...and if they're shooting my tanks, they're not shooting my troops. That's one of the things I like best about my list. The most efficient termie killers are also the only tank-killers. If they're killing one, they're letting the other live.

I'll grant that the upgrade is not the best way to spend 30 points in every list that has a LR in it. But it is not overpriced, and for me, it's so important that I'd probably pay for it even if I thought it was. That's because I'm throwing two models in my opponent's face and saying "deal with this." If he does deal with them, I lose. The price is right, but that doesn't mean it's a good choice for everyone. CMLs are fairly priced. Doesn't make them a good choice in my list. Hell, whirlwinds are sinfully underpriced. I don't field one. We have two questions here. Is the price fair? I say it is. Is the upgrade needed/wanted on every unforgiven LR? No. In other lists, there may be more important things to spend the points on. I'd love to bring a WW or three (Since I have zero heavies), but I have better more important things to spend the points on.

[Brother Amarel]

Having both and run and faced LR's in 6th, I'm very much on the same side as march10k  on this one. I have destroyed an opponent's LR with a lucky hit on Turn 1 (his foot-slogging Hammernators were pretty much out of the game thanks to this) and I've seen mine saved from the same fate with the DW upgrade. 

 

Essentially if the LR is important to my plans (which it generally is) then a little extra to keep it safer is points well spent. 

[Master Avoghai]

 

 

 

 

What I'm just saying is that, even if you make re-roll the effects, as long as you have 4hits (of the penetrating, AP1 type), your LR is dead.

 

Fixed that for you http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.jpg

Nope no need to be AP1... 4 hits (glance or pen) of any AP will destroy the tank...

So you'll may reroll the pen chart result, if I obtain 4 pen hits the tank is dead because you've lost the 4HP at least you may re roll the pen chart to cause an explosion to kill enemy models...

 

Of course, in your list, which is pure white chocolate, it's difficult to find another use for the 60pts and since it lies only of at least one LR reaching the enemy's line, I understand you put all the odds on your side... But I hardly see anothe list that needs so much the upgrade...

[Onisuzume]

Well, it also helps a bit against Heldrakes...

But really, between either DW vehicle or another terminator, the choice isn't that hard afaik.

[Syphid]

Here's my question:  Does Preferred Enemy allow you to re-roll a Gets Hot roll of 1 on a plasma cannon?  I have a Ven Dread with Plasma Cannon and I haven't figured out the answer yet.

[Cactus]

Syphid, I think not. The Gets Hot roll for a blast weapon is not a To Hit roll.

[BigGumbo]

I think it does. I'm fairly certain that the gets hot rule specifically states that anything that allows you to reroll to hit allows your pc to reroll its gets hot roll too. Will have to check the BGB for a citation though...

 

[edited for double post]

[Syphid]

Syphid, I think not. The Gets Hot roll for a blast weapon is not a To Hit roll.

 

I think it does. I'm fairly certain that the gets hot rule specifically states that anything that allows you to reroll to hit allows your pc to reroll its gets hot roll too. Will have to check the BGB for a citation though...

 

[edited for double post]

 

 

The BRB says that being able to re-roll to hit (such as twin-linked and BS 6+) allows a model to re-roll a Gets Hot roll of 1 on blast weapons.  Preferred Enemy CSM isn't a blanket re-roll like Twin-Linked or BS 6+ or Prescience; it only allows you to re-roll to-hit rolls of 1, and only against Chaos Space Marines.  So I'm not sure!

[Cactus]

That's what I get for not checking the rulebook. An interesting grey area around the use of preferred enemy though.

[BigGumbo]

 

 

Syphid, I think not. The Gets Hot roll for a blast weapon is not a To Hit roll.

I think it does. I'm fairly certain that the gets hot rule specifically states that anything that allows you to reroll to hit allows your pc to reroll its gets hot roll too. Will have to check the BGB for a citation though...

 

[edited for double post]

 

The BRB says that being able to re-roll to hit (such as twin-linked and BS 6+) allows a model to re-roll a Gets Hot roll of 1 on blast weapons. Preferred Enemy CSM isn't a blanket re-roll like Twin-Linked or BS 6+ or Prescience; it only allows you to re-roll to-hit rolls of 1, and only against Chaos Space Marines. So I'm not sure!

That was what I'd remembered. As I see it, if it's a reroll under certain circumstances and those circumstances occur then you get the reroll. There would be no argument about, say, rerolling a plasma gun to hit roll of 1 thanks to preferred enemy, so there should be no argument about the blast weapon either. Unless, of course, you disallow Prescience or twin-linked rerolls for PC gets hot results as well ;-)

[BigGumbo]

Right. Have reread the BGB for myself now, which says: if a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit ... it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

 

Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

[march10k]

Nope no need to be AP1...

 

 

~sigh~  Okay, you originally said "four hits of any kind."  That's not true.  You need four hits that at least glance.  :P