Long-mid range domination

[Blade_and_Honour]

Hail fellow warsmiths and warlords!

After not playing 40k for a while (fantasy torni kept me busy) I have taken up my Iron Warriors again

I have had a few games against tau and they went down to the wire in both games. Tho my list was not meant to be a shooting list, it sort of ended up being... In one game i didn't get closer than 12" of a tau model.

So, my list went something like this
Lord, termie amour, MoN, Brand, blight grenades, chain fist, GoM (tho after these games, I realize that the brand should be on a jump lord)
2x CSM, one with 2x melta one with 2x flamer (lord went here for 3D3 if i got charged by his silly suites)
2x2 oblits
Heldrake (1000)

His list went along these lines
Commander with T5, 2+, FNP, S10 AP1 in cc, plasma and melta combo
an ethereal
2x 12 firewarriors w/markerlights
2x 6 pathfinders
1x2 and 1x3 battle suites with plas/melta combos

So the big thing i have learnt is Chaos can shoot a tau army to shreds if the following are done -
1) destroy pathfinders as a primary target - without those marker lights tau are not as good at shooting by far, hitting on 2+ becomes 4+ and his suites are not ignoring your cover!!!
2) if he is cheesy he will put the commander at the front to take the hits for his unit (T5, 2+ and FNP does take a lot of hits). DO NOT BE TEMPTED BY HIS COMMANDER. Take out the army then the suites, they can be ignored/tied up until you are ready.
3) HELDRAKES!!! these guys rock, as we all know. But S7 AP3 vector strike over suites then flaming the pathfinders or fire warriors is just funny - also, the brand is a good option, anything that ignores tau amour and cover is just funny


Hope this helps some of you take out the "greater good" and put the true gods on top of there cared remains

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT!

[Brother Ambroz]

Interesting and good advice, thanks for sharing. Curious though what was his commander doing in your games?

[Blade_and_Honour]

His commander was sitting at the front of the 2 battle suite unit and taking the hits for anything that could not ID him or until he was on his last wound and forced to take a FNP, the unit its self was picking off the marines and then eventually the oblits that where still running around 

Another major point is that charging tau hurts, 1st game i charged the lord and a unit of 8 CSM in, only lord hit combat and even then he lost a wound all down to marker lights and supporting fire 

[zyl-]

yeah, they got a lot harder to charge these days. i usually consider overwatch a waste of time, but when you have 80 shots, it actually isn't a waste.

[nurglez]

Back when I still used my Draigowing, I quite liked a squad charging my deathstar. 5 psycannons (20 shots) and 7 storm bolters (14 shots) rerolling to hit often got quite a few hits with overwatch :D

 

I'm yet to play a proper game vs Tau yet (friend of mine has started them but he's yet to learn how to use them properly) but overwatch does seem scary. I always have dirge casters on my vehicles, so I'd probably hope to run a rhino or landraider up to the main threat and charge them like that (yes vehicles aren't that tough against tau but they can survive if you give them bigger theats :D ).

[Blade_and_Honour]

I have been thinking, i may try a noise marine list against the tau, ignoring cover is good against most things but add that to the range of the blast master and smile as tau have to come closer :) 

A bit off topic but last edition of the tau book i played 750 DE V tau, had them on the ropes through shear weight of fire + long range (-6" from there range and then venom cannon things). This has got me wondering if we could do a similar thing with chaos, autocannons, blast masters, hades autocannon? 

 

Any thoughts on maximizing output of shots at range?  

[minigun762]

I see potential in NM BM MSU based lists. Support with Havocs and Oblits.

[Brother Ambroz]

I read somewhere around here, think it may have been from Bonzi or Tenebris, that someone had some great success against the new Tau with blasmasters. It's worth a try regardless. If you do decide to go with a NM list, check out Bonzi's blog. Tons of good tips and pointers from there.

[Dam13n]

CSM do gunlines rather well, although will probably be outperformed by competitive guard or tau. (the Tau list you mentioned doesn't look particularly scary IMHO)

Heldrakes speak for themselves, they are dirty with a capital D.

The Lord with Brand is a great deterrent for enemy assault units with a 3+ or worse save.
CSM squads with PG + AC make for good body saturation with some reasonable firepower, alternatively 2xFlamers have great deterrent potential.
PM squads with 2xPG are a firm favourite of mine

NM squads with a Blastmaster add ignores cover shots for picking off enemies in cover
Obliterators are just great and even better with MoN
Predators and Vindicators also add something to the party, albeit at the expense of less Obliterators
Forgefiends aren't a bad option either, but do pretty much the same job as 2-3 Obliterators shooting PCs, and are less survivable.

A true Gunline will need an ADL with either a Icarus or Quadgun for anti-air.

I like to use 2 units of Special Weapon Chosen in Rhinos (with Huron as warlord) as outrider elements (infiltrate) to help both slow enemies down in mid-table and pull them into range of the rest of the army at the same time. They're also good first-blood getters if you have the first turn.

Another idea would be to take up to 4 Heralds of Tzeentch and a unit of Plaguebearers as Allies. up to 4 Prescience providing Heralds and a tough unit with shrouded to camp on an objective would synergise well with a gunline list. The key thing would be keeping the Heralds safe from enemy fire as they would be easy first-blood/kill points if they get targetted. You could also stump up a few more points for a Grimoire in order to try and boost the Obliterators (and Daemon Engines) invulnerable saves.

[arkagl]

I use Noise Marines with 2x 7 Blastmasters and 4 Sonic Blasters for my gunline then have 3x 7 havocs behind them shooting also. I mow down pretty much anything.

[Verbal Underbelly]

You can only have 1 herald in an allied detachment of daemons.

[Eulfein]

I like the idea of adding in Noise Marines in an Iron warriors army.... Sonic weaponry is just awesome. I like the army list by the way.

[Dam13n]

You can have up to 4 heralds as a single HQ choice.

 

You can have a single HQ choice in an allied detachment.

 

Unless I'm missing something, that means you can have up to 4 heralds (as your 1 allied HQ choice) in an allied detachment.

 

Of course, as an Alternate - a Level 3 Divination Lord of Change offers much of the same benefits, plus has the benefit of being a flying monstrous creature - equalling more mobiity and durability.

[Excessus]

You can have four heralds in a single HQ choice in the primary detachment...

[Fibonacci]

You can have four heralds in a single HQ choice in the primary detachment...

Page 94, top box, first sentence under the heading "Heralds of Chaos."

 

The old codex stated you could have 2 heralds per FOC slot.  With the new wording, each herald still takes up an org slot on its own.  If you have more than one herald in your primary detachment you can not take any other HQ choice -- other than the extra hearlds -- since 2 heralds take up 2 FOC slots. :(

[Excessus]

Did you read the second sentence as well? The one where it says "This selection uses a single HQ slot from the force organisation chart"?

 

Though this is just about the primary detachment, allies are in the allied detachment and so can't benefit from that box...thus, only one herald as an ally.

[Dam13n]

Just checked it myself - yep, just multiples as a single choice in a Primary Detachment.

 

That's what comes from posting from memory rather than checking the codex first...

 

Never mind...

[Blade_and_Honour]

Just thinking to myself, what would be the best HQ for a shooting chaos army? Would the best option be a BS5 one on a defence line? or a jump pack with brand? 

 

 

When i try to do a space marine shooty HQ its much easier, Chapter master with helfire rounds (2+ to his, 2+ to wound and one orbital bombardment)  and whatever you want to try and keep him alive or a master of the forge. But chaos seem to have forsaken the long range fire power when they come into leadership... 

So what are your thoughts on this my fellow warsmiths and warlords?? 

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT!!
 

[Dam13n]

It depends which weapon you use on the defence line:

 

Icarus - you're going to want BS5 as only 1 shot.

Quadgun - doesn't matter so much, as 4 shots with re-rolls to hit means BS4 is likely good enough

 

Chaos characters are, by design, combat characters (for the most part), the Burning Brand and Combi-weapons being the extent of their long ranged capabilities.  Don't forget that the Burning Brand is a great deterrent to any assault unit with a 3+ save or worse - it has an effective range of 20" (12 + Template) so can get a good shot in before the enemy get into charge range.  That can be very handy on your "Line Lord" or "Line Sorcerer" or "Line Warpsmith" as you want to keep your enemies at a distance - after all, if you're locked in combat - you can't shoot.

 

True, the Brand on a Fast Lord (Bike, Cavalry, Jump) may net you more kills, and draw threat (which is also useful) so it's a trade off depending on what you want your list to achieve.

[Blade_and_Honour]

I have before used a lord with a unit with 2 flamers, that tends to put people off quite a bit i must admit :) Just thinking, warpsmith with brand and a unit with 2 flamers = 3d3 S4 AP5 and 1d3 S4 AP3 :D