RWCS or Black Knights which one?

[captain sox]

Hi folks,

 

 quick, simple question. I have 6 of the Ravenwing bikes (from a box set and bits dealer) and was debating what to make: the Command Squad (with IC) or Black Knights... I'm running a very mixed bag of tricks (DW, GW, RW) and was trying to think of how these would fit in. Not a pure RW, or DW  or GW army, but I'm using the best of all worlds.

 

What would be more useful? Most games would be in the 1800-2000 pt range.

 

Thanks

[facmanpob]

Depends on what you are running, but why not build using magnets and have the option of both?

[Brother dean]

Are you going to find the points to upgrade Champion/Apoth/Banner?

Do you need the banner to be mobile? 

Do you need a Character (champion) to soak up the challenges?

 

I would say if you are just running them for a laugh, run a command squad.

If you are running them "competitively" then I would maybe make them BKs as they dont have as big a "Shoot Me!" sign on them...

 

I plan both but am building 6 BKs first.

 

2p

 

PS: Also I am planning on building a banner bearer out of the spare set of legs since I used one set of robed legs for my Hunt Master.  That way I can swap a normal guy out and run a command squad if I want.

[Stormtrooper-VII]

If you're running a bike mounted hq then take the Ravenwing command squad. You don't need to get any of the upgrades for them and it doesn't take up a force organization slot. It's also 6 points cheaper than the Black Knights for some reason.

[Jehoel]

If you're running a bike mounted hq then take the Ravenwing command squad. You don't need to get any of the upgrades for them and it doesn't take up a force organization slot. It's also 6 points cheaper than the Black Knights for some reason.

 

The difference in points between a bare-bones 5 man Ravenwing Command Squad and a bare-bones 5 man Black Knights squad comes from the Huntmaster. He costs more than a basic Black Knight, after all.

[FragEmAll]

If you have a bike mounted HQ then there is no reason not to take the command squad. I would always take the extra members though. Up until they added the +2 biker option I thought they were too fragile. With an apothecary and the oh so vital banners, they win hands down. The only reason to take black knight squads if if your HQ is Green or Bone.

[Tiger9gamer]

I think that the black knights are better if you want more wounds and more attacks and things in an escort squad for an IC or something.

 

The command squad is cheaper though, and I think that that it's a little better if you just want a small, cheap squad.

[march10k]

 

 Not a pure RW, or DW  or GW army, but I'm using the best of all worlds.

 

 

Hah...more like a little of this, a little of that, and not enough of any one thing to get over the top.

 

Um, mockery aside, I'd go with the knights.  They're just plain better unless you have a specific purpose for the command squad.  I'd say the same thing about DW...go with knights unless you need something that only the command squad can provide.

[facmanpob]

 

 

 Not a pure RW, or DW  or GW army, but I'm using the best of all worlds.

 

 

Hah...more like a little of this, a little of that, and not enough of any one thing to get over the top.

 

Um, mockery aside, I'd go with the knights.  They're just plain better unless you have a specific purpose for the command squad.  I'd say the same thing about DW...go with knights unless you need something that only the command squad can provide.

I would respectfully disagree with the assessment on the following specific point:

 

The Deathwing Knights and Deathwing Command Squad are fundamentally different units, with some different special rules (Fortress of shields, Hammer of Wrath, You cannot Hide, Vengeful strike, Split Fire) and entirely different weaponry. The Ravenwing Command Squad and Black Knights are fundamentally the same unit, with the same statlines and basic weaponry and special rules. The RWCS is limited to 5 Black Knights, but gets the usual Command Squad upgrade options, the Black Knights squad can go up to 10 bikes and gets weapon options for the Huntmaster and extra RWGL slots. So the choice between DWK and DWCS is a different beast to the choice between BK and RWCS.

 

A 5 man vanilla BK squad is actually no better or worse than a 5 man vanilla RWCS. It is identical in every way, except that a BK squad takes up a Fast Attack slot, and the RWCS requires a HQ on a bike (and the RWCS is a tiny bit cheaper).

 

The choice of which is better for your army, therefore, imo, is entirely dependent upon the rest of the army. And its here that I agree with March10K......if you aren't taking a bike HQ, or you specifically don't require any of the Command Squad upgrades, then Black Knights give you the ability to take larger squads, and hence more Grenade Launchers.

 

However, in reality, I go back to my earlier post in this thread and say that you should buy some magnets and build them so that you can take either a BK squad or RWCS depending on circumstance. You only need to magnetise the banner arm, the apothecary torso and the Champion's sword arm (you don't even have to do this last one if you plan on running a Huntmaster with power sword), and your command squad is magically transformed into normal Black Knights.

[march10k]

Well put, Pob!

[jeremy1391]

Facmanbob hit it on te head! Magnets for the win!

[captain sox]

ooooh what are these magnets you speak of?

lol. Just kidding. I will heed the advice of the wise members of the board and get some magnets... and more robed biker torsos. In 'my' army, only HQ (and Company Veterans) have robes (my DW Knights are nude), therefore I'll need to get some robed bits for my Command Squad bikes... with the Command Squad, I do like the fact it doesn't take up a force org slot.

Now for my next question, is a Libby or Chappy a better HQ choice on a bike?

Unless I do both

[facmanpob]

Good question.....

I've been toying with the idea of running dual RWCS......one with the Standard of Devastation and one with the RW Company Banner. The question is, would I run a chappy on bike with MoR with the Company Banner squad, or a libby with PFG with the Standard of Devastation squad.......?

A lot of people will tell you that the libby is less useful due to the bikes bolters already being twin-linked, so Prescience is less useful. This is true, but it misses two points imo:

1) There are other powers apart from Prescience.....

2) Imagine casting Prescience on a Squadron of 5 Typhoon speeders......10 twin-linked missiles and 15 twin-linked bolter shots.....stick a PFG on the libby and put the nearest couple of speeders to the enemy within the bubble, and bingo, 4++ save for your speeder squadron....

I'll be honest, every time I've run a Chappy on a bike, he's been targeted as a priority, and hasn't made it into CC, but other people swear by them

[captain sox]

For me, it will most likely be a Libby at first, then maybe a Chappy. Need more skull helms

[Grand Master Raziel]

I'd argue for the Libby on the bike, for the same reasons Facemanpob outlined.  Plus, you know, a little psy-hood protection.  Chappy doesn't really synergize with a Bike Squadron as well, though with Ravenwing having Hit And Run, you could presumably get multiple uses out of that charging bonus.

 

I've been bending a lot of thought towards the Ravenwing Command Squad/Black Knights question.  What I've come up with is this: You take a Command Squad to tote either the Dakkapole or the Ravenwing Banner.  If you don't need a Standard Bearer, go with Black Knights.

 

I was also thinking Black Knights would make a good unit to hold in reserve and outflank with.  Since you can't assault with a unit that just came in via outflank anymore, you need them to hit pretty hard the turn they arrive with shooting, and Black Knights will sure do that.  You wouldn't outflank with a Command Squad, because there'd be no way to guarantee the banner coming in where you want it to come in, and it could be off the table for crucial turns.

[Brother Darklight]

I'm in a similar position to Captain Sox.  I'm about to come into ownership of a 2nd Dark Vengeance box, that on top of my 15-strong Deathwing, and wanted to grab a Ravenwing BK/CS box.  Given what I have, is it better to go Black Knights or Command Squad?  

[elmo]

As facmanpob has stated - magnets are the way to go if you just can't decide. You would only need a couple of small ones (I would use 2mm diameter by 1.5mm deep in the torso and the arm to get a strong grip). I did a similar thing with my termies and it is not hard to do.

[Dark_Master]

Just wondered, do people count a Techmarine on a bike as the required HQ?

 

DM