Question: Chaos Rhinos....Yay or Nay?

[Eulfein]

Greetings Brothers in Chaos,

 

After reading the activity on the forums a lot I noticed that there are very mixed feelings on Rhinos. Some swear by them....some wont even touch them because they were 'nerfed in 6th'. Being a new recruit to the IV Legion I would like to gain my fellow Warsmith's and Warlord's opinions on the subject of using Rhinos. Pros? Cons?

 

Any feedback on this would be appreciated.

 

Iron Within, Iron Without.

[nurglez]

Like many things, it is down to your play style and meta.

 

Using rhinos have lost me games, and they have won me games. They've been amazing  using them to outflank, slow down enemies, provide cover, deny overwatch (I love dirge casters), ground flying MC's (twin linked bolters!), cause moral checks, protect weakened squads, capture far objectives.

 

And rubbish, such as giving up first blood, immobilizing themselves on terrain, blocking my own infantry, getting destroyed in an annoying position and slowing down infantry crossing the difficult terrain.

 

You need to know their limitations. rhinos in 6th aren't as survivable, and you can't assault the following turn you leave them, but for 40 points (I always factor in dirge casters) they usually help my force more then they hinder it.

 

Being able to move a squad of plague marines 18 inches in a single turn is great, especially in that damn hammer and anvil deployment. Being immune to almost all str 4 weaponry can be great.

[Eulfein]

Good point.... I might try equipping 2 squads in my army with a Rhino (1 box for each squad to be exact) and one squad to footslog just to try which approach is better. This early stage in the hobby I'm more concerned about learning the ropes than anything else. Thanks for the insight!

[minigun762]

Nurglez nailed it. My favorite parts are the movement bonus and protection from templates and blast weapons.

[Ironwithout]

Nurglez hit the nail on the head. But just to add my own opinion. My Iron Warriors don't leave home without them unless there sitting behind a defence line or bastion.

 

Oh and expect to give up first blood every game. Then when it doesn't happen on the rare occasion your even better off.

 

Plan for the worst! Deliver the best!

 

Good luck!

[Fibonacci]

I don't take rinos for CSM.

 

I don't see rhinos as being any more or less survivable in 6th.  On one hand they can be stipped of hull points when before they were just stun locked but on the other your oponent can not stun lock with a single glance and has to continue firing at the rino instead of taking on a new target.  In any case there is just not a significant change to how well they survive a game from what I can see.

 

The First Blood argument is not something I worry much about either.  I can see people's point that find this a concern but I don't let it bother me any more than paying attention to how I deploy for every unit.  Rhinos are not the sole weakness for easy kills.

 

The only change that made a significant impact was losing the ability to assault from a non-moving rhino even if it was shot out from under the unit in the previous turn.  Because of this I will not put assault troops in a rhino.  But the the whole shift from close combat to shooting means I am less likely to take close combat units anyway.

 

So in the end I don't take rhinos with my CSM army.  Foot troops hold the rear and flanks, fast attack bikes and drakes harrass the enemy (hehe, harrass ... dominate the mid-field is more like it) and daemon allies (which are mobile and cheap) have become my forward assault units now. 

 

I don't take rinos.  It has nothing to do with any percieved (or real) nerf as much as they don't fit with how I run my CSM/CD army any more.  I still take 4 or more for my SoB army because they need them for how they play.  For CSM I find more marines is better use of points.

[Aragantes]

I am quite fond of running a few Rhinos w/ dirge's, dozers, and combi-melta's. I can't quite understate how effective a lone rhino can be at drawing fire when you are getting close to assault range. One lucky melta shot can determine a game in some situations, and dirge casters ftmfw. More often than not I run them empty, but in Apocalypse games, depending on the board, they can save assault troops a turn or two of getting shot to :cuss. Totally worth it.

[minigun762]

Part of me is considering just using them as gun platforms with a HML. Hang back behind cover lobbing shots until you need to move out to claim an objective.

[Deadman Wade]

I still use them in every game, it costs only 35 points after all. I load them with bolter squads to take good position turn one, and then disembark troops and block LOS to enemy's heavy guns.

Also, outflanking or infiltrating can be much better and easier with a transport - during one game I infiltrated a squad of chosen with plasma guns in rhino and managed to get into rapid fire range to take out rapier battery, which could threaten my LR and predators, so this rhino won me that game.

As for their low survivability, it's hardly worse than other ground transports, even those new eldar wave serpents, who almost impossible to pen, get glanced to death by a single turn of autocannon havoc fire.

[Eulfein]

so...... looks like it all really depends on play preference. Nurgelz did hit it on the head. I'm gonna try 'em out in a beginner's tournament this coming August 4th and let's see how things work out. 

 

I must say I'm having a lotta fun in the B&C forum =)

[nurglez]

Glad I could hit the nail on the head (missing often means you've hit your thumb and that hurts!).

[arkagl]

I have this strategy - It you're not playing a objective base game or they one with the objective in the middle put your rhinos in reserve with no units inside. When they come out if first blood hasn't hapened move and pop smoke. That way you won't give first blood.

 

If you are going to have to hold objectives move as far forward 1st turn as you can. No point wasting a transport that cannot move your units as quick as possible. But try to get something that will block LoS for your opponent.

[Zhukov]

Yay or nay answers itself if you understand what you need in 6th edition to win games: You need to be able to capture objectives.

 

This means, if you want it or not, that you need to have some kind of (temporary) mobility for at least some of your troops. Pure footslogging will not get you across the table (especially in Hammer and Anvil, but also against proper shooting armies) *in time* in a lot of situations.

 

I hope this above is understood and accepted, if not, feel free to contest this point and I'll gladly eloborate.

 

Now we can boil the situation down to 2 options:

 

1. You have moblity in the form of infiltrate (Huron, Ahriman) or allies (nightscythes with warriors/immortals are the most common and arguably best option here). In this case you can opt to leave Rhinos at home.

 

2. If you do not opt for the option above you are pretty much forced to use Rhinos.

 

Is this bad? No, Rhinos are still fine in 6th. Yeah they die, which they did too against good armies during 5th. First Blood argument is a bit of a wash, it's mostly irrelevant when you simply don't have other options. Being able to take objectives is worth more than first blood.

 

Do Rhinos what they need to do? Yes, it is not worth for oppenents to kill 3/4 Rhinos during the 1st turn, matter of diminishing turns. (It takes usually a complete armies firepower, if they are capable of it in the first place, to kill 4 rhinos in 1 turn, which is most of the time wasting their potential cause no matter how you look at it, in the end thats only 140 points).

My experience is that Rhinos will most of the time simply get some units where you want them to be. (in midfield)

 

Worst case scenario? They end up as LoS blocking terrain, ensuring your troops dont get straightup killed in turn 1, which is fine for me.

 

TL;DR: Yay, if this is the way you want to include the necessary mobility for your troops.