Scars

[Scribe]

Just say the words man.

"Angron beat Russ 1v1 this time. Russ was not holding back. Russ attacked Angron in anger by being provoked to a rage (irony)."

It probably wont help some, but they are lost anyway...

Appears Kol was correct that NotW was meant to deflect from the Lost Legions.

[A D-B]

So it was a deliberate attempt to take the Space Wolves' potential involvement (as executioners) with the erasure of one or both of the missing Legions and replace it with the Night of the Wolf?

 

Good. That needed to be done. I love the idea that they have something like that in their background, but it placed too much attention on the Missing and made them out to be far more powerful than is practical. The Night of the Wolf was, as you intended, far more realistic while not actually taking anything away from the Space Wolves.

 

Sort of. It was an interesting notion that identified some of the perceived the differences between warriors and soldiers (which is a separate conversation in its own right) and in terms of fighting coherently versus fighting in a swarm, and so on. There's a lot in the scene, making it very necessary and worthy in its own right: the Nails' curse as well as their blessing; the difference in Legion tactics; the strength of brotherhood; the denial of a damaged primarch; and so on.

 

The fact it fixed that little continuity tease/hiccup was just gravy. 

 

In the past, I've had Space Wolf fans angry at me for saying the Wolves didn't eradicate the Lost Legions, when Dan and Graham's characters implied they did (and Dan's Prospero Burns trailer implies they did). That's cool and all, but it's a classic case of shooting the messenger. I can't change the lore to make sure the Wolves killed the Lost legions. They didn't. That's a fact, Jack. No one killed the Lost Legions, because there is no answer about what happened to them. We're allowed to suggest possibilities and teasing references, sure (although you'll note, we were supposed to stop that and I still see them in every novel bar Betrayer, since we were asked to stop...) but it was coming way, way too close to confirming the Wolves did the deed, and of course, they didn't. 

 

There was also a mention of there never being any Marine on Marine killing before the Heresy (which is why it was all so shocking and unthinkable to them), yet you have several Space Wolf mentions elsewhere saying they've fought Marines before. So that event also needed explaining and clarifying. Here's where it gets really 'fun'.

 

1. That event couldn't be actual heresy - because then the Heresy wouldn't be unprecedented. It had to conform to the Wolves' perceived role as the Marines responsible for facing other Marines - which is present in Russ being the one to initiate this event, in his decision to interdict in the World Eaters' degeneration. But it couldn't be actual rebellion or betrayal against the Imperium, or Marines against Marines wouldn't be a horrible shock when everyone later says it is.

 

2. You also had to leave doubt about whether or not the Wolves really were the executioners, because it's only Space Wolves themselves suggesting it so far in the series, so you don't want to say Yes or No either way, and the result had to offer potential confirmation for both sides. In this case, Russ has interdicted on behalf of the Imperium (and for damn good reason, too), but Angron casts doubt on whether or not the Emperor personally sent him.

 

(Additionally, the author that takes that dubious award of false Bestness away from the Wolves in a lore/canon situation is going to be absolutely eviscerated on forums, no matter how true and balanced it is. He or she will be a brave, brave soul.)

 

3. In addition to that, balance-wise, you don't want one Legion to completely dominate the other. And in this case, it's realistic that while one gets the moral high ground and the military victory, the other wins the duel and couldn't care less about the lesson in regards to his worldview. But even that has layers, in the sense that... was Russ holding back? He sure seems to be, given that he was trying to teach a lesson. Was Angron holding back? Maybe, given what we know about his lethality, and the fact Russ is still alive. Did Russ lose the plot and go crazy with anger, by being baited? Sure, maybe. Or maybe Angron's not as clever as he thinks he is (Lorgar seems to continually suggest Angron is an idiot for thinking he got the upper hand on Russ) and Russ's natural savagery was obviously misinterpreted by a swaggering Angron.

 

But can we be sure of any of it? No. That is the point. There's evidence for all of it, without it being contradictory or biased. Discussing the possibilities is awesome, too. I mean, that's 40K lore in a nutshell: possible interpretation. But it's when you get sneering, frothing insistence - the exclusion of evidence and debate - that you have a problem.

 

A lot of thought goes into this stuff. I care about the lore. I like it to match up and make sense. People look at this stuff and think it's easy. That's the real madness.

[Scribe]

So what your telling me is....you wont say it. :D

 

I can live with that, and after reading Betrayer for the 5th time, I come to appreciate even more your references, and the themes or tropes being presented.

 

The Long War will continue on this topic I am afraid though.

 

---

 

So yeah, Scars! 

[Conn Eremon]

(Additionally, the author that takes that dubious award of false Bestness away from the Wolves in a lore/canon situation is going to be absolutely eviscerated on forums, no matter how true and balanced it is.)

Well, hopefully the gratitude from the rest of us makes up for that. I am, honestly, a major Space Wolf fan. Though I say I am such for all of the Founding Legions, from the First to the Alphariuses, Space Wolves were my first favorites and still hold one of the high positions. And I am really glad the Night of the Wolf is their executioner moment, rather than a Missing Legion.

[Kol Saresk]

I liked that it shifted the focus away from the Night of the Wolf. A lot of forum members say they don't want everything being written down, well the Missing Legions will forever be the gap that is never filled with things like "Maybe the Wolves killed them" or "they were absorbed into the Ultramarines" and other things like. To be honest, I would like to see more contradictory hints thrown into the series because it becomes easier for more and more theories, ideas and beliefs concerning them to spring up. And all of them will be right.

[Wade Garrett]

I certainly never intended to come across as saying that no Primarch who isn't Horus or Sanguinus should ever defeat Angron because he is TEH B3ST EVER!

 

Anyone who watches boxing or mixed martial arts knows while raging man beast aggression is a good thing in a fighter, there's also something to be said for staying cool and controlled even under extreme pressure (see George St. Pierre for a real life example).

 

As an aside, can I get a round of applause for ABD? The man crafts a nuanced, riveting story to show us that "My daddy can beat up your daddy" is not the sole measure of a Primarch...then logs into the Bolter and sees eleventy one threads wherein opposing sides use his story as a beating stick in "My daddy can beat up your daddy" arguments.

 

A lesser mind would crack.

[Conn Eremon]

A D-B dedicates his life's work to writing make believe stories that people who play with tiny toy soldiers read.

 

His mind had to have cracked long ago. But his is a beautiful insanity.

 

But let's not have a return of the ADB Appreciation Thread. To the Scars!

[Kais Klip]

This is why I believe all the legions should be nuked with some kind of humbling tragedy so we can knock down some very high chins that have been sprouting recently. 

[Conn Eremon]

See, that I don't agree with. The Legions shouldn't have to suffer for some of their fans being insufferable.

[Wade Garrett]

No. The Legions should all suffer because this is Warhammer 40k (30k?) where there is NO HOPE! ONLY WAR! AND THE LAUGHTER OF THE THIRSTING GODS!

[Conn Eremon]

That I can agree with it. The actions of certain fans should simply be ignored. They shouldn't influence the fluff to accommodate their contradictory, counter-productive, self-serving and frankly exasperating views. The demands of the story ans a faithful, entertaining approach to the lore should be the only things to consider.

[Kais Klip]

Cormac my recent rankleness wasn't the primary drive for my opinion, rather what I said in the Vulkan lives thread and exactly what Wade points out, the setting has been forgetting the big words used in its preamble introduction and a result a lot of the fans have been grown accustomed to a lot of win/lose scenarios when grimdark 40k is all about die&win/die&lose. 

 

I should be shot for telling people how to interpret the series, but recently I've become very passionate about keeping 40k the definition of grimdark. 

 

Edit: I'm really going to regret saying this, but my point about the behavior of certain fans stemmed from the fact that their behavior has lead me to consider and believe (I do hope to be debunked) that certain legions have become the figurative "win-button" side. Granted we are only starting in the series, but I do believe all the legions should be humbled in some way or another just to reinforce the desperation of the setting. I'm generally biased towards World Eaters and perhaps the Alpha Legion, but I really think that even the Iron Hands haven't been hit hard enough, but its a start to an aspect that I would be happy to see across all the legions. 

 

I am disgusted by how bitter I sound this evening, but yet I can't see the reason why I am so. 

[Emperor's Furor]

Iron Hands are have come off the worse in just about everything they've been involved in so far imo

[Kais Klip]

Mm, I reckon most of their damage has been so straight forward and brutal in order to serve an attempt to highlight one of their qualities which is resilience (?) (although, Salamanders and Death Guard hold that title as well so...), I do reckon the same effect can be achieved by giving them bigger bite in the future despite their size, sort of a "bloodied but unbowed" shlick. Their last genebank ship ramming Horus' flagship, for instance

[DarthMarko]

"Missing legions" is one of those threads which I fully ignore along with "vs"...But they are popin' up, constantly.....

 

I once said :

"Curze would whoop Sangunius" and the sky (read : fans) fell on me....Never again....

 

Just try and think out of the box....BAM...Some fan hits you with a quote from heresy book......

 

What pisses me off - If you have your theory don't let anyone tell you different....I belived SW killed one of the legions, and making them deluded didn't help, it made some moraly vertical :-) "butthurt" people to jump on every SW post about missing legion....And after 20 years of hobby this is the first time I'm afraid to voice my opinion..... 

[DarthMarko]

Just say the words man.

 

"Angron beat Russ 1v1 this time. Russ was not holding back. Russ attacked Angron in anger by being provoked to a rage (irony)."

And this is the most important part for you I presume...???

[GhostMalone]

At the end of the day everything is open to interpretation, I've argued for angron and against him. I understand the fear of trolls on the Internet.

 

But the thing about the human language especially English is it's open to interpretation.

 

I love the heresy I love ADB but I don't love the whole I'm right your wrong argument.

 

My brother is a keen as wolf while I loved dark angels. I've had this argument with him but he actually is one of the rare few now to change his mind, he always hated TS and now he's building a heresy era book because of prosperous burns.

 

We need to all try steer away of crucifying those that don't follow our chains of thought. I'm with dearth marko on this one

[DarthMarko]

 

 

 

 

2. You also had to leave doubt about whether or not the Wolves really were the executioners, because it's only Space Wolves themselves suggesting it so far in the series, so you don't want to say Yes or No either way, and the result had to offer potential confirmation for both sides. In this case, Russ has interdicted on behalf of the Imperium (and for damn good reason, too), but Angron casts doubt on whether or not the Emperor personally sent him.

This is not true... In Hawsers deamonic visions, future Horus talks about them as excutioners...Also Curze calls Russ an Ex (in Vulkan lives)

Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being

the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is

too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion

holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else

will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I

suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly.

‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be

found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are

simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan

 

 

 

 

 

Bare in mind, executioner =/= as the best fighter... I'mean this title means nothing except that it sounds cool..

[A D-B]

 

 

I love the heresy I love ADB but I don't love the whole I'm right your wrong argument.

 

 

But that's exactly the point. I don't say "I'm right, you're wrong." I just detailed pretty clearly how that specific scene is crafted to completely annihilate any such end result. What I say - and what every reasonable debate and discussion about this has said for about a year - is that "This could be right, that could be right, this could be wrong, that could be wrong - and it's set up that any of those interpretations can be right." 

 

I only disagree when people say "Actually, X would definitely happen, and Y is impossible."

 

Well, no. That's disingenuous - and, unsurprisingly, always involves Poster X's favourite faction being "better" or "winning".

 

The only times discussion has ever really broken down will be perfectly searchable on this very forum, and in those old arguments, I specifically spent my time arguing against those statements of "I'm right, you're wrong", in favour of pointing out the openness of interpretation. But in some cases, there lore is the lore. The Wolves didn't kill the Lost Legions. Space Wolves aren't stronger and better than any other Marine. I appreciate I got it in the throat for not offering up a crowd-pleasing opinion, but there has to be some balance along the way. That's not me saying I'm right. That's me explaining reality, explaining the license, which has nothing to do with my opinion. 

 

You think a Space Wolf fan or two is frightened of giving their opinion? Jesus, search for the reactions on here from when the Night of the Wolf was first discussed. Look at the posts of a specific 3-4 Space Wolf fans, and look into their reactions to any different interpretation by anyone else; look into the sheer, unbelievable rage of Leman Russ and the Space Wolves not getting to be The Best All The Time. It was so vitriolic (and, frankly, stupid) that it got talked about behind the scenes between a few of the authors, where we discussed never touching them again because it wasn't worth the biased, hysterical, nonsense fallout. Even though it was only a handful of people, it was so intensely laden with vitriolic misunderstandings that it surprised a few of us in pretty stark terms.

 

It was ugly stuff. And it's a lot calmer in this thread, thankfully.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

I love the heresy I love ADB but I don't love the whole I'm right your wrong argument.

 

 

But that's exactly the point. I don't say "I'm right, you're wrong." I just detailed pretty clearly how that specific scene is crafted to completely annihilate any such end result. What I say - and what every reasonable debate and discussion about this has said for about a year - is that "This could be right, that could be right, this could be wrong, that could be wrong - and it's set up that any of those interpretations can be right." 

 

I only disagree when people say "Actually, X would definitely happen, and Y is impossible."

 

Well, no. That's disingenuous - and, unsurprisingly, always involves Poster X's favourite faction being "better" or "winning".

 

The only times discussion has ever really broken down will be perfectly searchable on this very forum, and in those old arguments, I specifically spent my time arguing against those statements of "I'm right, you're wrong", in favour of pointing out the openness of interpretation. But in some cases, there lore is the lore. The Wolves didn't kill the Lost Legions. Space Wolves aren't stronger and better than any other Marine. I appreciate I got it in the throat for not offering up a crowd-pleasing opinion, but there has to be some balance along the way. That's not me saying I'm right. That's me explaining reality, explaining the license, which has nothing to do with my opinion. 

 

You think a Space Wolf fan or two is frightened of giving their opinion? Jesus, search for the reactions on here from when the Night of the Wolf was first discussed. Look at the posts of a specific 3-4 Space Wolf fans, and look into their reactions to any different interpretation by anyone else; look into the sheer, unbelievable rage of Leman Russ and the Space Wolves not getting to be The Best All The Time. It was so vitriolic (and, frankly, stupid) that it got talked about behind the scenes between a few of the authors, where we discussed never touching them again because it wasn't worth the biased, hysterical, nonsense fallout. Even though it was only a handful of people, it was so intensely laden with vitriolic misunderstandings that it surprised a few of us in pretty stark terms.

 

It was ugly stuff. And it's a lot calmer in this thread, thankfully.

 

And you always say just because we are the loudest doesn't mean anyone listens to us :P 

[A D-B]

 

 

 

 

 

2. You also had to leave doubt about whether or not the Wolves really were the executioners, because it's only Space Wolves themselves suggesting it so far in the series, so you don't want to say Yes or No either way, and the result had to offer potential confirmation for both sides. In this case, Russ has interdicted on behalf of the Imperium (and for damn good reason, too), but Angron casts doubt on whether or not the Emperor personally sent him.

This is not true... In Hawsers deamonic visions, future Horus talks about them as excutioners...Also Curze calls Russ an Ex (in Vulkan lives)

Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being

the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is

too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion

holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else

will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I

suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly.

‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be

found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are

simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan

 

 

 

 

 

Bare in mind, executioner =/= as the best fighter... I'mean this title means nothing except that it sounds cool..

 

I'm not sure why you always argue this with me. Despite me keeping it a little in vague doubt through the scene itself, I'm also one of the ones that's done the most to imply the Wolves are the executioners. I've shown them doing the job itself. I've shown them being discussed as doing it, in visions. I've had a direct quote from Khârn where he calls them that.

 

None of that, or what you said - changes anything in the text you quoted. It's just another character or two saying they are. I know. I've done the same. It changes nothing; it's still a matter of doubt.

 

Honestly, it's like you have some sort of weird compulsion to pick fights over this. They might be the executioners. They believe they are. There's evidence that they are. Except for the fact that, logically, it doesn't make a mountain of sense, because no one Legion really could decimate another in the terms that Dan's trailer implies. I can't magic up a way for the Wolves to do it, but I don't mind adding to the idea they might be serving that role.

 

I've done as much as any author - and more than most - to show they probably are. Stop arguing with me and insisting they are, when I point to the reasonable doubt that remains. The reasonable doubt will never go away. It's 40K, dude. I'm sorry you ache for this to be ironclad truth, but you may be into the wrong license if you want absolutes.

 

If it came to my personal opinion, Russ would've hammered Angron into the ground and pimp-walked out of there. But it's not about my personal opinion. That's not my job.

[DarthMarko]

Hookay, Russ was beaten (1 on 1) and you "corrected" things which you prefered were wrong...All are happy and 40k is blooming of joy....

 

Can we get on the track abut WS , here ???

[A D-B]

I love the heresy I love ADB but I don't love the whole I'm right your wrong argument.

But that's exactly the point. I don't say "I'm right, you're wrong." I just detailed pretty clearly how that specific scene is crafted to completely annihilate any such end result. What I say - and what every reasonable debate and discussion about this has said for about a year - is that "This could be right, that could be right, this could be wrong, that could be wrong - and it's set up that any of those interpretations can be right."

I only disagree when people say "Actually, X would definitely happen, and Y is impossible."

Well, no. That's disingenuous - and, unsurprisingly, always involves Poster X's favourite faction being "better" or "winning".

The only times discussion has ever really broken down will be perfectly searchable on this very forum, and in those old arguments, I specifically spent my time arguing against those statements of "I'm right, you're wrong", in favour of pointing out the openness of interpretation. But in some cases, there lore is the lore. The Wolves didn't kill the Lost Legions. Space Wolves aren't stronger and better than any other Marine. I appreciate I got it in the throat for not offering up a crowd-pleasing opinion, but there has to be some balance along the way. That's not me saying I'm right. That's me explaining reality, explaining the license, which has nothing to do with my opinion.

You think a Space Wolf fan or two is frightened of giving their opinion? Jesus, search for the reactions on here from when the Night of the Wolf was first discussed. Look at the posts of a specific 3-4 Space Wolf fans, and look into their reactions to any different interpretation by anyone else; look into the sheer, unbelievable rage of Leman Russ and the Space Wolves not getting to be The Best All The Time. It was so vitriolic (and, frankly, stupid) that it got talked about behind the scenes between a few of the authors, where we discussed never touching them again because it wasn't worth the biased, hysterical, nonsense fallout. Even though it was only a handful of people, it was so intensely laden with vitriolic misunderstandings that it surprised a few of us in pretty stark terms.

It was ugly stuff. And it's a lot calmer in this thread, thankfully.

And you always say just because we are the loudest doesn't mean anyone listens to us

Naw. Companies don't listen.

But authors talk. And, in this case, look on in wide-eyed amazement, fearing certain Space Wolf fans forevermore.

[Marshal Rohr]

Oh God, Run A D-B, they found you!

 

They are like zombies hungry for William King-esque novels instead of brains, because clearly brains just have no use to the Beer-loving, chick banging, metal themed space wolves fans. 

[A D-B]

Hookay, Russ was beaten (1 on 1) and you "corrected" things which you prefered were wrong...

 

Can we get on the track abut WS , here ???

 

Jesus Christ. You're incredible.

 

You are actually incredible. What are you even talking about, at this point? What you're posting has no bearing on what I'm saying, or reality.

 

I never said "Russ was beaten". I offered several conflicting possibilities and perspectives. Which, incidentally, are already in the text.

 

I don't "correct anything I prefer" which was wrong. It's my job. Why is that so unpalatable to you?

 

If you honestly can't understand that - if you honestly keep seeing all the detail in my replies as that, then... Look, good luck to you. I'm amazed you're allowed to post like this.