Question about chapters in the legions

[Grizwald23]

I remember reading in some of the HH books that they had different chapters in the legions. One example I think is in the book I can't remember the name it's the one were the Word bearers have that big ship the biggest ever made I believe, and they are headed towards Calth to attack the ultramarines and a ragtag group of space marines consisting of ultramarines, space wolves, thousand sons and world eaters tries to stop them. Anyway They talk about a chapter of the word bearers. The chapter of the burning fist or burning hand were the hands are always lit on fire. Sorry It's been a few years since I've read the book.

 

My question is how different are these different chapters in the legions do they have different color schemes or maby just a different colored solder pad or a symbol somewhere on their armor. Or do just certain legions have different chapters because I know the SW had the Wolf Lords and the thousand Sons had the different brotherhoods. I might be wrong and their arn't chapters in the legions but I wanted to know because I am planing on doing a heresy army and I thought this could be a way to make them stand out from other armies of the same legion

[Grotsmasha]

Different icons on the non-legion shoulder pad. Think of the HH Chapters as 40k Companies, and the different ways they're denoted, shoulder trim etc.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[GrandMagnus]

I think the best ways would be to (as Grotsmasha said) add a unique chapter badge somewhere on the marines armour but not forgetting to give them the legion badge. For example: The Sons of Orar chapter (I believe it can be considered a chapter of the legion) could have the XIIIth legion badge on the right shoulder and the red omega on white baground on the left. Such kind of things. 

 

I also believe that each chapter withing the legions (note: they all share the same standart legion culture and characteristics) have their own unique added personalities and traditions. Maybe a chapter of the Raven Guard prefer heavy weapons or artillery strategies? Maybe a chapter of Space Wolves (gran company) prefer stealth, that kind of idea. 

 

But these are just my two cents.

[Conn Eremon]

And not all "Chapters" are uniform across the Legions. White Scars have Brotherhoods half a Chapter in size, Word Bearer Chapters vary greatly, with one shown as three Companies. Emperor's Children have Lord Commanders in charge of their own collection of Companies and Captains, though no size or designations are given beyond that. The Luna Wolves and Sons of Horus didn't have any Chapter organizations while the Thousand Sons had everyone belonging to two distinctive Chapters, one of which exclusive to their psyker talents. Like the Luna Wolves, the Space Wolves cared only for their Companies, however their Great Companies were far larger in size.

 

And so forth.

[Kol Saresk]

And not all "Chapters" are uniform across the Legions. White Scars have Brotherhoods half a Chapter in size, Word Bearer Chapters vary greatly, with one shown as three Companies. Emperor's Children have Lord Commanders in charge of their own collection of Companies and Captains, though no size or designations are given beyond that. The Luna Wolves and Sons of Horus didn't have any Chapter organizations while the Thousand Sons had everyone belonging to two distinctive Chapters, one of which exclusive to their psyker talents. Like the Luna Wolves, the Space Wolves cared only for their Companies, however their Great Companies were far larger in size.

And so forth.

Pretty much hits it on the head. In the same book the OP was talking about(Battle for the Furious Abyss), in one meeting between Kor Phaeron and the Chapter Masters of six other Chapters, each Master had his Chapter's icon worked into his armor somehow, so a small little badge somewhere would be your best bet.

 

So far the only Chapters shown to have a unique color scheme were the Chapter of the Serrated Sun(Post-Pilgrimage), in which their armor was colored in red and black while the rest of the Legion still wore the grey(Seen in The First Heretic by A D-B) and the Chapter of the Consecrated Iron which was forged in the aftermath of Istvaan V by Argel Tal. I believe they had the traditional red scheme, but with silver helmets(seen in Betrayer, also by A D-B). The only othernvariant color scheme I can think of is the First Company of the XVI Legion Luna Wolves and Sons of Horus, which always wore black regardless of being Justaerin or Catulan Reaver.

 

So thankfully the list is pretty small.

 

Also to note, if I recall correctly the Word Bearers are the only Legion that I know of that actually named their Chapters. The other Legions that had Chapters numbered them.

 

On a side note, Cormac, where was the Chapter that only had three Chapters? So far everything I have seen said that their Chapters have numbered in one thousand except for the Chapter of the Void mentioned in Battle for the Abyss that numbered 700? Not saying you're wrong or amything, I was just curious where it was seen.

[Grizwald23]

Thanks for the info ill keep the info in mind when I start my army.

[Conn Eremon]

Wasn't it the Serrated Suns? Or perhaps Ossified Throne . . . The First Heretic. Three hundred Marines. One of the Chapters. Can't quite recall specifically. Now that I think about it, it may have been something told to me that I accepted.

 

White Scars name their Brotherhoods, though one of their Terran Companies that had been away used a number. The Terran Captain hesitated before remembering and the Chogorian thought it strange to have a numbered designation. Which reminds me, they were Captains, of Companies, but Forgeworld lists Khans as leading forces bigger than Companies but smaller than Chapters. So what is a Company and what is a Chapter can be blurred, hence their unique names of Brotherhood, Great Company. Fear to Tread put the Blood Angels in that category too, I think.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, IIRC, we only saw about three companies of the Serrated Sun, but I don't recall anything saying those were the only three Companies. Maybe it was one of those deals we only see so much but nothing says that's all there is? I'll go back through and make sure what's what eventually. Thanks though.

[Demus Ragnok]

Well, IIRC, we only saw about three companies of the Serrated Sun, but I don't recall anything saying those were the only three Companies. Maybe it was one of those deals we only see so much but nothing says that's all there is? I'll go back through and make sure what's what eventually. Thanks though.

I think I remember something about the Serrated Sun having lost a third of their strength when Captain Scarus and his company are lost in the warp.

[Conn Eremon]

Perhaps it was a momentary lack of numbers, then. That only got worse when they became the Chaos Marine beta testers.

 

Perhaps it was a momentary lack of numbers, then. That only got worse when they became the Chaos Marine beta testers.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Well, IIRC, we only saw about three companies of the Serrated Sun, but I don't recall anything saying those were the only three Companies. Maybe it was one of those deals we only see so much but nothing says that's all there is? I'll go back through and make sure what's what eventually. Thanks though.

I think I remember something about the Serrated Sun having lost a third of their strength when Captain Scarus and his company are lost in the warp.

 

 

Yeah, immediately following the Pilgrimage, I think there was only like tweny-something to fifty members of that Chapter left and they became the original Gal Vorbak so that specific Chapter has taken some very serious hits so depending on where you are in the book, the numbers would be in flux.

[Demus Ragnok]

I don't have my copy of TFH handy but I also seem to remember the Serrated Sun's companies being non sequential in number. I remember Argel Tal commanded the 7th but I think the other companies mentioned are like the 13th and the 51st. Those are just guesses but I do remember them being non linear in number.

[Conn Eremon]

That does sound familiar.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, since I'm probably not going to sleep anytime soon, I figured I'd try to look everything up. Cormac Airt, you are right. The Serrated Sun only had three Companies. Didn't have to go far, only page 39. Makes it kind of funky since there were 100,000 Word Bearers present at the muster of Monarchia. The next page describes how some of the larger Chapters number twenty or more Companies. So my revised guess would be that the Word Bearers were varying in Chapter size as Cormac said, but later on(most likely during or after the Heresy) they divided into the Hosts, which are said to number 1,000 on average.

[GrandMagnus]

I dont think that Word Bearers are the only legion with named chapters because (as said before) the white scars and probably the space wolves would also name their chapters/great companies after their commanding officer maybe.

 

And now Im wondering, the sons of Horus have 1 veteran company: the first one. But I dont believe all the legions had that kind of organization, sure some might have kept it that way but legions like Ultramarines and Imperial Fists I could imagine that their chapters would all have their own veterans.

[Kol Saresk]

Well I did say "as far as I know".

[Conn Eremon]

The First Company of the Sons of Horus also had the Catulan Reavers, which are variously referred to as a squad or a company, and whose leader, subordinate to First Captain Abaddon, is himself sometimes given the rank of Captain.

 

Could be mistakes or typos, or perhaps the Legion of Companies has its own unique organization of Companies themselves, perhaps having some within others.

 

But it is noteworthy that while they (the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus) give their Companies numbered designations, the squads are all named.

 

Edit: Kol: Ha! For once my memory is right. So it looks like the Word Bearers had little rigidity or uniformity in their structure, which is fitting for them.

 

Perhaps the given 1,000 isn't a rule but an average, or just their way of saying "comparable to a loyalist Chapter."

[Kol Saresk]

One thing to remember about the Sons of Horus is that they had companies that only numbered a few squads to numbering in the thousands. Even then, their organization was so fluid that they'd take squads from part of a single company, throw them together and a sergeant granted the temporary rank of Chieftan was put in charge of the ad hoc "company". That's why there can be Captain Ekaddon of the Catulan Reavers and then a chieftan of a Catulan Reavers "Company", the "company" being in quotations because it either refers to an ad hoc formation(most likely) of only a few of the Reavers or a misnomer for all of the Catulan Reavers as a sub formation.

 

But the Reavers(page 70 of Betrayal refers to them as one of two distinct sub formations that make up the 1st Company) are without a doubt, not an actual company, but part of the First Company. Abaddon is Captain of the Justaerin and overall commander of the First Company while Ekaddon is a "sub"-Captain who is normally in charge of the Catulan Reavers. Strangely enough, in Horus Rising, Ekaddon was said to be in charge of the Catulan Reaver squad.

 

The Sons of Horus also had another informal organization which would be made up of grouped Companies and individual units into a "speartip". It would be under the command of a senior captain. Sometimes othere captains would take on the roles of lieutenNts if the command was large enough. Also, the speartips only existed for one specific campaign. Once that campaign was over, everyone went home. The primary difference between a speartip and the "chieftan's company" is not the actual rank of the commander in charge, but that the speartip was the entirety of the force prosecuting the campaign while the chieftan was put in charge of an ad hoc formation within that force.,

 

if you're not careful, it can get very confusing, especially when it comes to the Sons of Horus.

[DuskRaider]

Death Guard were only separated into 7 Companies, but they were absolutely immense. From what I remember as well, First, Second, and Seventh Companies were the most revered. The Legion in general weren't all that keen on markings and whatnot, but I can see each Company having some kind of marker to indicate their Company, other than just a number.

For instance, my Death Guard are of the Third Company. I've made their right knee pad in bronze to show as much, and it also lends to their motto, an old Albian chant "Iron Bound". The left knee pad can be either green to indicate they are a child of Barbarus, or white to show they originate from elsewhere. I have a few representatives of First, Second, and Seventh Companies, and their right knee pad is green to show they are revered. Obviously not all actual GW fluff, but I had little to work with and went from there.

[blackoption]

DuskRaider:  Not trying to sharpshoot, but there is a difference between the 7 Great Companies of the Death Guard legion and a standard company in the Death Guard Legion. (Pg 128 FW HH Betrayal Book). These Great companies were the equivalent of Chapters/Millenials/Harrows of the other legions.  There were still battalions and companies inside of each of these Great Companies.

[DuskRaider]

Well from what I know, it's only Seven Companies. Typhon led First, Ignatius Grulgor led Second, and Nathaniel Garro led Seventh. We don't get too much more detail on it. Even Betrayal slims over saying that Death Guard consisted of Seven COMPANIES (not Grand Companies), each one numbering several thousand Astartes.

[Conn Eremon]

It mentions them as similar to Chapters, but I believe it was meant to mean in size, not organization. We know Mortarion wanted there to be only seven companies, preferably of 70k each.

[Kol Saresk]

I don't mean to be insulting or anything but, well, the exact wording is "seven Great Companies" that "Notionally each company was to hold some 70,000 Space Marines, the desired strength of the Death Guard Legion's number then some 490,000 Legiones Astartes - although in reality nothing approaching this number was ever achieved."

 

The next page says that Istvaan III, the Death Guard numbered only 95,000 and that was before sending principal elements of its 2nd, 5th and 7th Great Companies as well as a detachment of Legion Fellblades and siege gear. There is very little mention of any kind of sub-formation eithin(or without) the Seven Great Companies exceot on page 129 where it specifically mentions that "elite units, favoured or chosen warriors simgled out from the rest, and sub-formations within the Death Guard Legion were also noticeably lacking in comparison to other Legions, with only a few exceptions - the most notable of which were known as the Deathshroud." It doesn't say that they didn't exist, just that they were lacking in number. Although Betrayal does seem to make an effort to separate the armoured and artillery regiments from the infantry and makes a distinct mention of them in the forces deployed to Istvaan III.

 

So to be honest, as far as the Great Companies being divided into like sub-companies, there's no specific mention of it but at the same time, nothing speaks against it. So I'm not exactly sure where I stand on that matter.

 

EDDIT:Partially ninja'd by Cormac. Startedd writing the post like two hours ago but then internet started being stupid.

[Conn Eremon]

EDDIT:Partially ninja'd by Cormac. Startedd writing the post like two hours ago but then internet started being stupid.

I at first thought your post was directed at mine, pulling specific quotes on what I brought up.

 

I was confused for a bit, until I read it again and actually read the "edit" part.

[Kol Saresk]

Oh sorry. I was actually responding to DuskRaider and blackoption as the companies were called "Great Companies" but I couldn't find any mention of there being any companies or battalions within those Great Companies, but I couldn't find anything against there existence either. Like I said, I wasn't trying to be insulting or nothing, just pointing out those details and thanks to the glory that is wi-fi combined with Florida weather, my internet just decided to be stupid.

 

So I guess if anything, I was unintentionally reinforcing your post since we both pretty much said the same thing? Not sure. Like I said, I wasn't trying to be negative or nothing.