Unforgiven Apocalypse formations

[Cactus]

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCatsLarge.jsp?catId=cat1090006a&rootCatGameStyle=

 

Alongside the Apocalypse pre-order GW are selling formations from the new rules. We get the Deathwing Redemption Force and Ravenwing Huntmasters. It would have been nice to get a small discount with these but at least ours aren't more expensive - unlike the Windrider Host.

 

I suspect more than a few of the frater can field those already, and Liberame can probably do so from his ETL vows alone!

[elphilo]

Really disappointed that there are no discounts in these kits, unlike the last apocalypse release :(

But hey, this way a new Deathwing Brother doesn't have to click 5 times to get a nice chunk of the Deathwing

[Syphid]

I was hoping for something a little more innovative than "Lots of Terminators" and "Lots of Bikes."  Like a combination Ravenwing/Deathwing formation, or some kind of Greenwing or Dreadnought formation, or special vehicle formations, or the assembled masters of the Unforgiven chapters...

 

Maybe the Land Raider Ares will be in the book?

 

Hopefully there will be more formations for Dark Angels in the Pandorax supplement like there was in Armageddon.  I'm not getting the collectors edition, but it's being hinted that Pandoraz will be available to purchase later on.

[Pbenner]

Well,

 

We'll see what happens, but it will be cool to see the DW Redemption Force incorporate the new DW Knights.

 

I have a feeling that we will see the Terminus Ultra, the Ares, and maybe a new Land Raider Varient for Apoc Only.  

 

We'll also have some generic formations that we can use (all marines) to cover Dreadnoughts and the rest.  

 

Paul 

[Zepyrous]

I was hoping for something a little more innovative than "Lots of Terminators" and "Lots of Bikes." Like a combination Ravenwing/Deathwing formation, or some kind of Greenwing or Dreadnought formation, or special vehicle formations, or the assembled masters of the Unforgiven chapters...

Maybe the Land Raider Ares will be in the book?

Hopefully there will be more formations for Dark Angels in the Pandorax supplement like there was in Armageddon. I'm not getting the collectors edition, but it's being hinted that Pandoraz will be available to purchase later on.

That was exactly my thought except, there is a Battle Company when I´m reconsidering right... But where is the good old Ironwing formation?!

Anyway, guess it´s better to buy the stuff at your well trustet retailer who would give you a discount for sure at this amount of boxes and get the rest from a well known online auctioneers

[Jehoel]

I find it interesting that the photo for the Ravenwing Huntmasters does NOT show any attack bikes, even though they say that is has 5 full attack squadrons. Hmmm. Bit of an Oooops there? :p

[Phoebus]

I like the Deathwing Redemption Force because it serves as a nice reminder to the Codex's implication - that the Deathwing is larger than a Codex Chapter's First Company.

 

In the previous Codex, we had allowances for extra Command Squads for Independent Characters.  With the current Codex, each HQ choice gets a Command Squad, and each HQ choice in Terminator Armour gets a Deathwing Command Squad.  So seeing a formation with six Deathwing Command Squads really puts this in perspective.

 

Three surprises (one positive and two negative):

1. The implication that there are at least sixteen Deathwing Knights and four Knights Master.

 

2. There was no Apocalypse Formation that combined the Deathwing and the Ravenwing - an ultimate "Hunting" force, if you will.  Was it considered too powerful against the comparable formations of the other factions?  I really hope it wasn't a case of omission on account of someone not even thinking about it.

 

3. There was no Apocalypse Formation based on a total Dark Angels force:  a Battle Company reinforced by elements of the Deathwing and the Ravenwing, whether led by Azrael or not.  It's especially disappointing given that the Space Wolves got a treat similar to that - an entire Great Company - and the Ultramarines/Space Marines get to field full Companies.

 

Anybody think there's a chance more Dark Angels Apocalypse Formations will be included?  The book's page makes mention of "more than 100 devastating formations", but the ones listed on the website total up to less than 80.

[Stormtrooper-VII]

I like the Deathwing Redemption Force because it serves as a nice reminder to the Codex's implication - that the Deathwing is larger than a Codex Chapter's First Company.

In the previous Codex, we had allowances for extra Command Squads for Independent Characters. With the current Codex, each HQ choice gets a Command Squad, and each HQ choice in Terminator Armour gets a Deathwing Command Squad. So seeing a formation with six Deathwing Command Squads really puts this in perspective.

Three surprises (one positive and two negative):

1. The implication that there are at least sixteen Deathwing Knights and four Knights Master.

2. There was no Apocalypse Formation that combined the Deathwing and the Ravenwing - an ultimate "Hunting" force, if you will. Was it considered too powerful against the comparable formations of the other factions? I really hope it wasn't a case of omission on account of someone not even thinking about it.

3. There was no Apocalypse Formation based on a total Dark Angels force: a Battle Company reinforced by elements of the Deathwing and the Ravenwing, whether led by Azrael or not. It's especially disappointing given that the Space Wolves got a treat similar to that - an entire Great Company - and the Ultramarines/Space Marines get to field full Companies.

Anybody think there's a chance more Dark Angels Apocalypse Formations will be included? The book's page makes mention of "more than 100 devastating formations", but the ones listed on the website total up to less than 80.

Yeah, while the formations we did get seem pretty decent I didn't like it either how there was only a pure Deathwing and pure Ravenwing formation, I think that a lack of any green power-armoured Dark Angels was...disappointing. One thing I did notice too, was that of all the different forces, the dark Angels got the fewest numbers of formations with only two while everyone else managed at least three.

Edit: Fixed a typo.

[Tiger9gamer]

i'm interested to see what the ravenwing formation can do... that's a lot of bikes!!!

 

 

besides, maybe we can use both together?

[Master Sheol]

Yes in Apocalypse you can use all you have... no FOC... bring the action!!!

I like both DW and RW formations and i want to see what they can do... However i guess the DA have access to the Companies formations that vanilla marines have (in the end our battle companies and reserve companies follow the lines of the codex, company veterans apart)...

We could adapt the Battle companies and reserve companies formations to fit the DA style (DA special rules and Cpompany veterans) when the Apo book will be out...

[Cactus]

I don't think the Deathwing Redemption Force formation literally contains 6 command squads. 'Deathwing Command Squad' is the only Deathwing kit available and builds all three terminator units. I'm also sure that Dark Angels can use the generic space marine formations too. I did that under the previous rules and nobody batted an eyelid.

[Cod]

Yes, I also used SM formations under the old Apoc, my friends didnt mind.

One thing though, for the Battle Company I did have 5 tactical squads, my 6th was a Veteran squad as my interpretation of the wording in the old codex was that a vet squad was made out of the other squads, not in addition too.

Also, remember the one where a land speeder could 'spot' for whirlwinds? I proxied Sammy's speeder for that hahaha.

Anyway, hopefully the DA will get some more formations for Apoc, and if we don't then yes just use the SM ones. The aim of Apoc is FUN!!!

Cod

[Phoebus]

I don't think the Deathwing Redemption Force formation literally contains 6 command squads. 'Deathwing Command Squad' is the only Deathwing kit available and builds all three terminator units.

Good observation. On the other hand, though, what's the point of GW using Deathwing Command Squads and Deathwing Knights as the specific builds for that specific Apocalypse Formation's picture? They could have just as easily featured Belial, one Deathwing Command Squad (for him), a single formation of five Deathwing Knights, and eight Deathwing Terminator Squads. They didn't though, and I don't think it's a coincidence.

The big thing to remember is that the Dark Angels could always field multiple Deathwing Command Squads (one "For each HQ choice equipped with Terminator Armour ..."). The only limitation to this was that you could only field a single Deathwing Champion per Army. Lest we think that six Champions goes against the fluff, though, I wonder how many of the brethren here thought that the Chapter could claim four Deathwing Knights Master and sixteen other Deathwing Knights - especially given that these are the individuals from whom the future Company Masters are chosen*.

All this ultimately furthers the concepts hinted at by our background fluff: the Dark Angels are unusual in that the entire Deathwing is fielded in Terminator Armour (the Ultramarines can't even claim that, per Apocalypse); the Dark Angels are suspected of fielding a First Company that is larger than what the Codex allows.

And I love it. I love the idea that the Ultramarines - who really would have split up their assets between a couple hundred Primogenitor Chapters to play fair by the Codex - only have 12 Land Raiders per their Codex Chapter Organization section (pg 17)... whereas a Dark Angels player with powerful enough wallet could field at least twenty five Land Raiders as dedicated transports alone (yes, yes, I know it's ludicrous to field twenty squads of Terminators, four of Deathwing Knights, and a Deathwing Command Squad, each with a dedicated transport) without worrying about a book contradicting him. I love that, if you add up all the different sources, we probably have more Battle Barges than any other "Codex" Chapter. I love that, unlike any other Chapter, there's not a source - fluff or otherwise - limiting how many Thunderhawks, tanks, Librarians, or Chaplains our Chapter has**. I love that the Black Templars offer estimations as to how big they are***, but that while nothing is truly known about the Dark Angels, everything indicates that they are more powerful, more numerous, and more capable than even their worst detractors fear.

It all speaks to a First Founding Chapter that perhaps wasn't as large as the Ultramarines, and perhaps wasn't as favored by the High Lords of Terra... but they cultivated their power carefully and are rightly feared tonight of being a Legion in all but name.

* As opposed to traditional Honour Guard, which are ultimately "just" uber-Veterans (or so it seems).

** Though I suppose we are limited to ten Darkshrouds. Or were, some time ago. One can't have everything!

*** Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the Dark Angels Chapter numbers two, three, or four thousand Battle Brothers, or whatever. That would be trite; it would miss the point.

[Cactus]

I suspect that the promotional image for the Redemption Force is a lazy copy and paste job that doesn't truly reflect the options and limitations provided by the rules. We'll fine out next week.

 

As for the rest of your post Phoebus, yes.

[facmanpob]

Agree with Cactus. The poor sap who had to get all of the Apoc pics up for the website probably didn't have enough time and energy to beautifully arrange the photos to actually reflect all of the nuances of the build options.... Plus, they don't want us to buy normal termies and convert them to DW using bits as that would be cheaper ;)

[Tiger9gamer]

I'm particularly loving the Artillery and other fortifications for apoc. i think the Green wing w/ banner of devastation can do horrible, horrible things in a wall of martyrs with aquilla strong point. also, maybe some devastators manning the vengeance batteries (I hope they are cheap)

[HsojVvad]

While we are not saving any money, are we paying more? It was said on DakkaDakka some of the formation bundles, you end up paying more, $30 more with the one click bundle. I guess, GW is charging us now for saving time by not clicking 10 times. So that is what, $3 a click? LOL.

[BigGumbo]

Re. the lack of a dualwing formation: I suspect it's a game mechanics practicality issue as much as anything else. Battle formations generally have to deploy together or enter play together (even if "together" means within 36" of a designated point on the board); whereas the whole basis for the Deathwing/Ravenwing synergy is that the Ravenwing do the scouting and only then call in the Deathwing for the kill/capture. Much as deep striking Black Knights squadrons would be funny, my personal view is that they would be at the Deep Striking Land Raider end of the "golly gee?" scale so we're probably better off without them.

 

I'm intrigued to see what special rules/strategic assets go with our formations - the Deathwing Redemption Force in the previous edition was a pretty tasty formation to take.

[BigGumbo]

Re SM formations too: I'd say go for it. It's the chapter specific ones that we can't touch. Everyone has battle companies but only we have the Deathwing and only the Blood Angels have the Death Company, etc and so on. Depending on the build options, we might even be able to argue for using a Veteran company as well as the Deathwing - being the combination of all of the Company Veterans from our 3rd-9th companies into a single formation.

[march10k]

I would like to see more and better (where are the lion riders???)  formations, but I always did favor the generic space marine ones anyway...like the battle company.  And the titanhammer.  My dream has been to drop a titanhammer  squad or three with a Thawk, then blow up a titan with the termies while blowing up a superheavy with the Thawk...all on arrival. 

[Master Avoghai]

I second cactus : the command squad photo is more a simple copy/paste lazyness than a will to play 6 command squads...

 

As for the lack of Greenwing formation, nothing prevents you to play the battle companies or the scout companies... The DA ones work the same way... We don't need anything more...

 

As for a mix RW/DW, I think we shouldn't expect GW to take us by the hand and show us what to do everytime. What does prevent you to use BOTH DW and RW formations? What does prevent you to use the DW formation WITH 2 independant squads? After all, you don't even know, it may be VERY powerful without any additionnal rules...

 

I have the model to play the 3 formations (DW, RAW and Battle company) so I'm very happy with that, and the only think I miss is a plastic thunderhawk!!!

[facmanpob]

In the old Apocalypse, the DW Redemption force was a Termy HQ and 3+ DWT units (roughly 850-900 points)......I would anticipate that the new DW Redemption force will be along the lines of a Termy HQ, 2+ DWT and 1+ DWCS and/or DWK (again roughly 850-900 points). I would expect the Ravenwing force to be somewhat similar in terms of points as well..... say Sammael and/or bike HQ, plus 2 x full RAS, plus BK and/or RWCS (again roughly 900 points).

 

I would anticipate most formations being under 1000 points (apart from the obviously mahusive ones like a Battle Company), otherwise a lot of people won't be able to field them and won't be able to afford to buy them.....that would stop people playing apocalypse, and would reduce sales.