Aegis Defense Line Emplacements-Deny the Witch?

[bjoluemblem]

As I'm list writing for a tourney, I strongly expect to face ADLs with emplacements of some kind, and I'm looking at a good alpha strike to remove emplacements. So I thought, well, Jaws of the World Wolf. No initiative value=instantly removed by Jaws. So-does the emplacement get a DtW roll? It is technically a separate model, and I don't have my rulebook handy, and google doesn't help. Any ideas? My initial inclination is that it does, but I'm not sure.

[Fibonacci]

If I remember correctly, JotWW has a specific list of types that it affects.  If it lists inclusions rather than exclusions, I don't think a gun emplacement (battlefield debris) would be effected.  I could be wrong since I don't have the codex here to check but I seem to remember this coming up not too long ago.

[Dam13n]

BRB FAQ:

 

Q: Can fortifications make Deny the Witch rolls? (p114) A: No.

 

No I value would equal automatic fail. However I don't think "weapon emplacements" are included in the list of units affected by JotWW. I lack access to codex:SW at present so can't check.

[Gentlemanloser]

JotWW effects;

 

 

Monstrous Creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models

 

In before "In my opinion it should also effect Aegis lines, Fortresses of Redemption and Landing Pads.  It opens a freaking chasm under them!!"

 

Well, it doesn't.

[Fibonacci]

... and if I had the power to rip a chasim open in a planet, why wouldn't I just do that to my target's chest?

 

But anyway ...

bjolueblem,

right idea; wrong power.  Maybe in the next version of C:SW it will change.

[bjoluemblem]

Hum, bummer. I don't know the wording on the Warp Rift power from Grey Knights, but it causes an initiative test as well. Not allying those jerks in though. Worth a try. Looks like if I'm worried about it I'll just use sternguard on it and make it take 10 wounds.

[Gentlemanloser]

The target unit must take an Initiative test for each non-vehicle model hit. For every test that is failed, one model is removed as a casualty with no saving throws allowed. Vehicles hit take a single penetrating hit

 

And all yours for the cheap price of 395 points to take out a single Emplaced Gun / Gun Emplacement!

 

(Cost is Mordrak +1 Ghost Knight and GK Libby with Warp Rift)

 

Edit: The Gun is a non-vehicle unit, that can be targetted by a psychic shooting attach and it doesn't have an Initiative Characteristic.

 

Edit2: As for a Deny the Witch roll, that's a little more difficult.

 

I'm say no, as only 'Enemy Units' are allowed a Deny roll.  Battlefield Debry and Emplaced Guns aren't 'Enemy Units'.  They're neutral terrain (as shown by the ability to move wihtin 1" of them, and in the case of Guns, actually shoot them yourself).

[Ming]

Can SWs still us drop pods in primer-grey?  Just pod in on turn 1 at the ADL and take the gun by basing it.  Then use it to shoot the opponents' units.  Marines are quickly finding th need to drop into the opponent's gun lines on turn 1....

[Grey Mage]

Yes, its a wonderful tactic- and folk are welcome to start a new thread in tactica or the SW forum discussing exactly that.

[jeffersonian000]

I actually do use the Mordrak delivered Libby + Warp Rift to remove pesky weapon emplacements tactic, because that's how I like roll.

 

SJ

[dswanick]

How is this thread still active? :)

 

Only enemy units may make a Deny the Witch roll (BRB, pg.68)

An ADL and a Gun Emplacement are not units (enemy, friendly, or otherwise) they are Terrain of the Battlefield Debris type (BRB, pg.105).

Therefore an ADL/Gun Emplacement can not make a DtW roll. It also can't be affected except by Shooting and CC attacks (BRB, pg.105), except by effects which affect Terrain.

[Dam13n]

 

BRB page 105:

 

"Gun Emplacement:  ... The gun emplacement can be shot at and attacked in close combat..."

 

So you can shoot at it.  Which would open it up to being targetable by Witch-fire powers at least.

 

The walls of an ADL however cannot be targeted, so only game effects that state that "any terrain within their area of effect should be removed" would affect them.  And IIRC such effects are limited to (the old rules for) Apocalypse.

[Spacefrisian]

Gun emplacement, I = n/a. could someone answer me how something can make a characteristic test on something it does not have?

[Grey Mage]

It cant, it would autofail. Why do you ask?

[dswanick]

So you can shoot at it.  Which would open it up to being targetable by Witch-fire powers at least.

 

Correct, but it still can't make DtW rolls. So it just suffers the affects of the (Psychic) Shooting attack.

[Spacefrisian]

It cant, it would autofail. Why do you ask?

By that note, tanks would autofail as well, cause they dont have an I value as well.

 

Maybe a metafore is needed.

 

Say you want to hit a tree, but there is no tree in front of you. How can you target that tree?

[dswanick]

 

It cant, it would autofail. Why do you ask?

By that note, tanks would autofail as well, cause they dont have an I value as well.

 

Maybe a metafore is needed.

 

Say you want to hit a tree, but there is no tree in front of you. How can you target that tree?

What are you driving at? JotWW doesn't affect Vehicles, Battlefield Debris, Ruins, Fortifications, Objectives, or any other models except those specifically listed (MCs, Bikes, Infantry, Beasts, and Cavalry.

[Dam13n]

Except that JotWW has a set list of units that can be affected - Gun emplacements, buildings tanks and terrain are not listed, so they are unaffected.

 

Warp Rift affects "non-vehicle models only" when referring you to the Init test - so won't affect vehicles or terrain (terrain =/= model) in that way. We are told that Vehicles take a single penetrating hit instead. Whether the Init test extends to a gun emplacement or not, as they're classified as terrain - battlefield debris, is debateable at best.

 

Now I can't imagine that GW would intentionally create an ability that would force a vehicle to take a test for which it has no characteristic. So I'm not sure this is ever likely to come up in a game-play environment. So I'm not sure where people are hoping to go with this line of thinking.

[Gentlemanloser]

At first I was going to dismiss this objection, but on closer reading I can't really refute it.

 

In the Terrain section, Terrain is reffered to as 'peices' or 'collection', and 'model' is used to represent individuals from units that interact with the Terrain.

 

Such as;

 

"one model in base ocntact with the gun emplacement"

 

"If a model is in cover behind a barricade"

 

"Models within the hyperslimes boundary"

 

"Models on different levels"

 

"the battlements of a building can hold as many models of a unit"

 

And so on.

 

It seems evident that the term 'model' is seperate to every 'peice' of Terrian that is discussed.

 

As Warp Rife effect 'non-vehicle models' in the 'target unit', and a Gun Emplacement is neither a Unit, nor a 'Model', I have to revise my answer above and Warp Rift can't effect it.

 

/bleh

[jeffersonian000]

Weapon emplacements have a characteristics profile, can be targeted by melee and range attacks, which would include Witchfire powers as those do count as range weapons. I see no reason why Warp Rift would not have an effect.

 

SJ

[dswanick]

Weapon emplacements have a characteristics profile, can be targeted by melee and range attacks, which would include Witchfire powers as those do count as range weapons. I see no reason why Warp Rift would not have an effect.

SJ

Because:

"The target unit must take an Initiative test for each non-vehicle model hit. For every test that is failed, one model is removed as a casualty with no saving throws allowed. Vehicles hit take a single penetrating hit.", C:GK, pg.25

The Gun Emplacement isn't part of a unit, and shouldn't be targetable. And even if you argue that you can target it, it's not a Model so can not be removed by Warp Rifts effect.

 

Not that i'm a huge fan of this line of reasoning. I would allow Warp Rift to affect my Gun Emplacements. I'm less sure of Jaws. I think that Jaws needs to be FAQd to also affect Artillery as well as various appropriate types of Terrain, but until it is it doesn't.

[Grey Mage]

I would certainly argue that it IS a model.

[Dam13n]

Well I suppose it does say:

 

 

"The type of weapon on the gun emplacement depends on the model you're using to represent it"

BRB page 105

 

It's the only place the term "model" is applied to a terrain piece that I can see (so far anyway).  Regardless it does lend some credence to warp rift affecting an emplacement.

 

At least Jaws is clear cut... ruddy GKs and their overpowered, poorly worded, rules...

(once more heaps curses on Mat Ward whilst lamenting the day GW management had a "special moment" and hired the git.)

 

I did actually have to stop and think for a second and decide if I should undermine my own initial argument... Still... (damn honesty, mutter, grumble...)

 

I therefore echo Gent - /bleh

[Gentlemanloser]

HAHA lol.  I looked through that entire section, and didn't find that.

 

In that case, as the Gun Emplacement can be placed behind the Aegis line, it gets a Cover Save form that line, as;

 

"If a model is in cover behind a barricade or wall, it has a 4+ cover save"

 

Can you also place it in other Area Terrain?

 

If it's also a 'unit', then it could also 'go to ground' as well. (If it's not, Warp Rift can't effect it anyway)

 

If it's not a 'unit', when it comes to shooting, you can't target it;

 

"To target an enemy unit"

 

The same when trying to assault;

 

"and nominate the enemy unit(s) it is attempting to charge"

 

I suppose the answer to that is that it's not a 'unit', but it's Advanced rules permit it to be shot and charged, over the basic Shooting/Assault rules that require you to target an enemy unit.

[dswanick]

I would certainly argue that it IS a model.

Remember that the next time your opponent demands that you immediately remove your Quadgun from play at the start of the first turn.

 

-If a Quadgun is a "Model", as defined on pgs.2-3 of the BRB then per the rules of Zero-level Characteristics, it's Strength is - (or 0), and 

"If at any point, a model's Strength, Toughness, or Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty.", BRB, pg.3