Mech, jumpers, and pods AKA: BA strengths

[terminatorAM]

Most would agree that Blood Angels are the best codex to use for fast jump pack units, have the most selections for AV 13 between multiple force organizational slots, and many lists are built around drop podded units as either alpha strikers (fragioso) or distraction units (bolter DC). Yet, it seems these days that most lists concentrate on one or two of these aspects, but rarely are all three seen in competitive lists. Is this because it waters down the focus of the list or because it movement for these different units conflicts?

Would it be possible to build a semi-competitive list with all these BA strengths together or does a competitive player win or die by one facet of war alone?

I feel like it would be beneficial to see how everyone on here thinks about our strengths and how best to use them and create general discussion on what has worked in the changing dynamic of 6th ed. I'm working on a list that could emulate all of our aging codex's strengths at once to compete in the current environment against the new dexs, but I want to hear people's options before posting it (and give me more time to tinker with it ).

[teblin]

I think with the rise of MCs you can't go wrong with high Str/AP weapons, so I like to stick Devs in with at least MLs (a couple of LasCans perhaps).

 

Assault Marines are fairly cheap, but with bolt pistols and chainswords they can't do a great deal. That's why I prefer Scout squads with snipers as they are better at holding objectives. My primary jump combat unit would be Vanguard Vets. I use a 5-man squad with 4 power weapons and a power fist. It's expensive, but with heroic intervention I'm getting 15 AP3 hits and 3 AP2 hits on the charge, as soon as I hit the table.

 

I run a Forgeworld Predator, the Executioner. Its man gun is a 3-shot Plasma cannon that doesn't get hot, great for hunting MCs (AP2), Termie squads, or even horde armies.

[BloodTzar]

Sometimes I love these advices made by guys who play BA few months...

 

One thing I would advice you is to follow the Mort's list build topic ; there might be few good list to follow; such as SM/BA drop pod madness where you can drop 3 Fragiousos with 2 ironclads T1. BA can do Drop pod assault quite effectively...

However, I personally play the dual SR list,minimal troops,hammernators with corbs with baals and bikes (when need to) some T1 Fragiouso ; Meph on the top. Works for me even in 6th

[teblin]

Well hey, these lists work in my games, but obviously not everyone has the same experiences.

[BloodTzar]

True so, your local meta might be "kind enough" to leave you with VV's, but I have to agree with general consensus and that is; they are overpriced for what they do. Therefore I would not suggest them at all, as there are better solutions for what they do (at best T2 assault, such as Fragiousos /DP in DP, allout LR's with nasties inside etc.)

 

Moreover, Devs in 6th have almost the same problem as every BA marine out there, overpriced (DA can do this better, SW more effective) moreover they die easy to massed ap2-3. For me there are better choices in Heavy (SR, Fast predators or vindies if you need to counter pala star or MC's)

 

Lastly, our troops are one of the best out there, they can be relatively cheap plasma delivery, crack tanks with melta/DoA or do the drop pod/LR spam fun with them.

 

~BT

[teblin]

Well, 12 points over stock ASMs for Terminator Honours, Heroic Intervention and access to extra power weapons (as well as a Sergeant who can take cheap gear) is acceptable methinks, plus the models look awesome

Fragioso in a pod certainly has its perks, but its lack of AP and mobility leave it exposed after it comes down. You don't get much done, and you've wasted your time. The Vets at least have mobility and 5 wounds in total.

Yeah, flyers became cheesy in 6th edition so everyone takes them now, but a Vindi for MCs? It can only do one wound to an MC, and the majority of them are T6 or higher, so it would take a lot of turns to kill one.

What power-armoured unit doesn't die easily to massed AP weapons? Devs with MLs and LasCans can crack tanks better than ASMs with melta. Sure, DoA on the seconds turn, roll your two melta shots (maybe the Sgt has something too) and that's that, you'll be shot to death on the next turn whether you kill it or not, or if you survive you'll be trapped behind enemy lines and likely not make your points back.

Devs can do the same thing but from your own deployment zone, and they don't need to be within 12 inches to do anything to vehicles. LasCans are expensive, but MLs are dirt cheap and are almost as good (and they have frag missiles for horde armies) and Krak now has AP 3 in 6th edition. A Krak missile can insta-kill multi-wound PA Marines across the table.

Our Predator Annihilator is overpriced, and the Destructor's Autocannon is pretty crappy.

[BloodTzar]

The main point as I have mentioned is to build army with some sort of tactics in mind, therefore If you use "vacuum" examples everything has potential to be terrible.

 

While you dropping one Fragiouso with nothing to support him, you end up with one melted wreck, but doing this in 3 your enemy might have a problem. On the other hand even Fragiouso taking enemy attention T1, giving you enough space to possition your army T2 have its vlaue.

 

Same logic applies to VV's , while you dropping one 5 man sq armed to teeth, usually ends up with nice death pile, while using them in 2x10 units with naked sarges (free PW) and MB's can give you some results. However the price tag for that is too high for me, and there are better solutions.

 

That applies to vindies as well, that 2-3 vindies might take attention of every opponent, and believe me while using even single one your opponent will space carefully enough just because of the pie plate.

 

I will leave the ASM w/out comments, as I have mentioned enough so far, moreover I am using minimal troops. Same goes to Devs, as I see YMMW.

 

Lastly, the points earned ratio might be very confusing, perhaps for a beginner it can be very logical ratio to follow, however there is hidden value of units (fire taken, psychological factor, positioning, LoS blocking etc. ) that might not be taken into consideration at the first glimpse. Therefore some units even not so shiny, might be better in game that they might be on paper (experience vs. theoryhammer)

 

~BT

[Jolemai]

To be fair to Teblin, the OP has asked what has worked in this edition so far so he is entitled to his views even if he has only played BA for a few months. There is nothing wrong with a different perspective after all; if he is getting something to work in this edition that we are not using due to it being dismissed during the fifth, then we should probably take note.

As for the topic, it sounds to me like you are trying to seek the best Hybrid force and it's certainly possible to get something semi-competitive or higher. Personally I have always felt that a hybrid approach is the best approach for us...

From the three elements you have listed above:

Alpha Strike

During the fifth edition, one of our more astute tacticians suggested that one Pod was for a distraction, three wasn't efficient, and five+ made an Alpha Strike list. However, this Drop Pod lists seem to be the current flavour and three Pods appears to be working. For example

~ 2 x Furioso Dreadnoughts with Drop Pod, Frag Cannon, Melta Gun and Magna Drapple

~ Third Pod (to ensure the first two land in turn one) of whatever. This could be a dummy pod, more RAS, Death Company, etc.

Jumpers

Typical jumper setup is as follows:

~ Librarian with Force Axe and Jump Pack

~ Priest with Power Axe and Jump Pack

~ 2x RAS with two Melta Guns and a Power Sword

This is then normally supplemented with something a little harder that can keep up i.e Mephiston, Dante (to get Sanguinary Guard as troops to go with them) and sometimes, although rarely due to their cost, Death Company.

Armour

With our armour being fast, a good combination has always been to have our jumpers behind a moving AV13 wall. Often, generals take tanks in pairs which dilutes the opposing threat, and sometimes there are Razorbacks/Rhinos guarding the weaker flanks. For example, imagine a wall of:

~ Baal - Vindicator - Baal

or

~ Razorback - Baal - Vindicator - Baal - Razorback

or

~ Baal - "Autolas" Predator - "Autolas" Predator - Baal

Augmentations/Supplementals

Of course these need to be supplemented by other options, to counter other threats. The following examples appear in many lists:

~ Attack Bikes with Multi Meltas

~ Land Speeders with Heavy Bolters

~ Stormraven (or an Aegis Defense line, both work as a flyer counter)

Also one can see/is starting to re-see:

~ Devastators

~ Tacticals

~ Scouts

~ Whirlwind

~ Allies - While I know you don't want them, I have listed them because they offer cheap alternatives to our book which will, in theory, enhance it's competitiveness. Just paint them as a successor chapter...

~ Other - because there's always someone who has gotten something else to work

Maybe I will try to cobble together a list out of all that later... Hope my two pence worth helped.

[Jorre]

I think my current list is a bit of a hybrid force, Ive been running it for a couple months now. Played about 10 games with it and havnt lost a single match. I will be taking it to a tournament in 2 weeks time to truly test it out.

 

The core of the force revolves around 2 fragioso in pods, mephiston and some multi melta attack bikes.

 

The pods come in on turn 1 and the fragioso do there thing! I usually try to block opponent heavy weapons with the pods or drop them infront of a quadgun, to obscure LOS. Mephiston and the attack bikes run up the field flat out, ready to take out expensive targets. I usually have a 10 man jump pack assault squad to support mephy.

 

So come my opponents turn 2 or 1 depending on who started. I have 2 fragioso, mephiston, attack bikes and an assault squad all in deadly range. With drop pods cluttering there deployment zone. 90% of the time my opponent will focus the fragioso, which is exactly what I want! With a little luck and carefully placement they will absorb a lot of fire! Leaving mephy and assault squad to mop up. Attack bikes will take out armour.

 

If your opponent does not have transports for there troops the fragioso are going to remove entire squads easily! When people see that happen they freak out and focus your fragioso! Usually it's to late and the damage is already done!

 

 

It's all about target saturation!

 

I'd love to add a couple vindicators to the list but can't fit them in

[The Milkman Of Baal]

what do you have in your 3rd pod?

[Jorre]

I have 4 pods.

 

2 Have the Fragioso and the other 2 have 5 man assault squads with dual infernus pistol sarg and melta gun. So 3 Melta shots.

 

I call them my suicide assasin squads. Having the 4 pods gives me the choice of dropping melta squads on the first turn or dropping the Dreads first turn. Which can be really handy if your opponent is using transports or lots of heavy vehicles. 90% of the time the dreads come down first though

[Zynk Kaladin]

Jorre, I'm stealing your pod configuration for a game tonight against my buddy's mounted vet IG list. How it plays just sounds delicious. :3

[Morticon]

Im finding it more and more difficult to include jumpers in my list :( I just dont find their damage output/cost effectiveness ratio to be good enough :( 

 

That being said, they worked nicely in my one pod list, but hardly anything to write home about.  I'm not entirely sure if they're actually a "strength" anymore?  Thoughts?

[Zynk Kaladin]

Jumpers are great as a mobile escort for Mephiston with an attached priest, but unfortunately they are over-costed for a standard core scoring line.  Their effectiveness only drops when, not if, they take losses before entering close combat.  From what I've encountered by the time they reach my enemies lines, 3 or 4 are already dead which really limits their killiness against MEQ squads.  Even with a PW sarg and furious charge, the combat has a decent chance of dragging on.  I love my assault marines to the death, but the sum of 6th ed rules cuts a billion little lacerations against them which bleeds their combat ability dry: overwatch, random charge lengths, worse cover saves, et al.

 

That being said, I still think at least 1 squad is a must-have for competitive BA play.  Their mobility late game (if they survive) is a godly boon for grabbing objectives.  Still our bread and butter... soggy bread and hard butter, but still ours.

[TheHarrower]

Im finding it more and more difficult to include jumpers in my list I just dont find their damage output/cost effectiveness ratio to be good enough

That being said, they worked nicely in my one pod list, but hardly anything to write home about. I'm not entirely sure if they're actually a "strength" anymore? Thoughts?

I agree. Stopped using jumpers awhile ago and went full mech. Works much better IMO. When we had the bonus Initiative and better Feel No Pain we were fine because we could strike first without repercussions and last a little longer. Now, we just can't stay alive to do enough damage.

[JamesI]

Im finding it more and more difficult to include jumpers in my list I just dont find their damage output/cost effectiveness ratio to be good enough

That being said, they worked nicely in my one pod list, but hardly anything to write home about. I'm not entirely sure if they're actually a "strength" anymore? Thoughts?

Sadly, as a player who became a Blood Angel player because I wanted to play armies of nothing but jumpers, I am finding this true. I know I'm taking a hit in effectiveness to play my Blood Angels anymore and I tend to do much better when I go Mech.

[Jorre]

Jorre, I'm stealing your pod configuration for a game tonight against my buddy's mounted vet IG list. How it plays just sounds delicious. :3

Feel free mate, and please let me know how you go!

[terminatorAM]

Maybe it would be more appropriet to say jumpers are a ba signiture rather than a strength. i too have seen them not be able to hit as hard as before, but the question has always been what to replace them with. Tactical seem a good way to go, but if not a pod, it's likely a rhino and many people once shied away from them because of first blood. I want to try running one behind an AV13 wall with a shielding libby dread (or 2) for protection.

 

For all you guys going to mech, are you going back to the 5th ed. style razor squads or something new?

 

Stupid phone double post

[TheHarrower]

 

For all you guys going to mech, are you going back to the 5th ed. style razor squads or something new?

 

The base of almost all my lists are 2 Vindicators, 10 Assault Marines in a Land Raider Redeemer, and 2 5 man Assault Squads in Razorbacks. I keep the Assault squads cheap with no upgrades and just Twin-linked Heavy Bolters on the Razorbacks so they aren't perceived as a threat. I rely on the Vindicators, Land Raider Redeemer, and whatever else I field to be the fire magnet. Been working out pretty well for me.