Is our book just a 'one trick pony'?

[Tiger9gamer]

after my worse game of 40k I ever had, some guy walked up and said "DA really only have one build." when he saw I brought a RWBoD list. is this true, guys? or are thier more fun, challenging lists we can build?

 

 

 

(for those interested in what the worst game, see http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/538044.page )

[Brother Brucey]

Greenwing BoD works, too. Deathwing BoD doesn't, but pure Deathwing is cool anyway.

 

That's two more builds right there.

[Tiger9gamer]

how about more than the BoD?

[Bryan Blaire]

Does he play DA? Is he a competitive WAAC/tourney player? If the answer to the first question is No and the second is Yes, then he really doesn't know anything. ;) DA have every build in the book.

[Leonaides]

When someone says that a Codex 'only has one build' they are either deliberately talking excrement or just dont know what they are talking about. There are as many builds as there are players, if not more. Net generals will say 'X is the bestest so everything not X sucks', and when someone wipes their clock with something different it must be cheating.

 

What works for you works for you - you just need to find what that is.

[Artemid]

RWBoD and GWBoC are both strong builds, and march10k's dual Raider spearhead DW list also gives lots of people trouble. Only the first of these three might be full tourney winners but they all can be very dangerous lists well used.

[Darkangeldentist]

No the Dark angel codex is not a one trick pony, the Ravenwing + banner of devastation build may well prove the most potent, especially if you get first turn and are aggressive but it far from the only build. You can run almost any kind of greenwing backed up by any other element of the codex and do well BoD or not. Ravenwing never really needed it, the banner is just one of those too good to pass up options for them. Then there's Deathwing who don't get anything from it and I'm finding to be quite good enough for me at the moment.

 

It's a shame to hear you had such a depressing game, they happen and the important thing is to remember is that whilst some games may be bad, other will be good and you should never let one poor experience tarnish your outlook on the game as a whole.

 

Dark angels have never had so many options to make viable and potent builds and I am enjoying just playing around with lists more than ever before.

[Tiger9gamer]

Alright, that's good to hear in this case! although, right now, I'm just drawing blanks on what to build.

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

With respect to Dark Angels players, there is a particular Ravenwing build (with the Banner of Devastation as has been mentioned) that appears to break most of the usual rules of engagement for other Marine armies. The ability of the Ravenwing to close distance SO quickly and unleash an ungodly amount of bolter fire is bad enough, but the real issue is in the cover saves (normally 2+/3+) virtually every unit will have (as a smart player will be clustered around a Darkshroud). If the RW player goes first, it is very very hard to kill that Darkshroud and reduce those cover saves.

 

From what I have seen the trend in 6th ed. codices is to add in faster units with a greater proliferation of Ignores Cover weaponry. Until most codices have been updated, the pure power of that specific Ravenwing build will leave a lot of players thinking that's the 'only' DA build. Obviously it's not, but I am convinced (completely) that it is currently the most powerful. Greenwing is good and all, but most armies do not come equipped to deal with T5 bikers (with Scout) which can not only fire a Salvo 4 twin-linked bolter in your face but also benefit from a ridiculous cover save.

[Master Avoghai]

It's still the problem of your opponent and what you expect from the game..

 

If you high level games with beardy players and cheesy armies, yes maybe the RW + SoD is the way to go. And still it does exist variations (exemple the 3 crusaders list)... But anyway... Do you know a codex which is non one trick pony in this type of games?

Chaos : abaddon + vets + 3 helldrakes

Deamons : 2 dukes + 3 DP with MoT and wings

Necrons : scythes

Etc. etc.

 

I had the occasion to have a look to ETC like lists and they're all similar whatever army you take... The only differences may rely on the alliances and what is the primary detachment...

 

I really feel that the guy who made this comment was what we call here a "store champion" a guy who beats every young players with the lists he copy/paste from Internet... But who ignores that other ways of fun do exist... ;-)

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I once again follow the Masta (Does the Samurai Bow),

 

Tiger I'm not sure what interests you as far as game play but I just got done have a four way battle royale at a small measly 500 pts to reestablish rules and introduce a game to a new necron player. I will say this I truly think a "battle company" is a viable build now. Greenwing without the BoD is quite doable and fairly cheap and if you play up to 2K games you can add plenty of bells and whistles. Contrary to what I see on the Internet my Assault squad with a Int Chappy does an excellent job of wiping a troop unit or two and then redeploying to a new area of the bored. My Dev squad with 4 PC was also the star of the show wiping out an entire CSM squad in one round of shooting. A Necron Immortal Squad the next. Taking two wounds from a Tomb Spider the following and lastly leveling an entire Termaguant squad. All for a measly 130 pts. Add your tacticals and transports to taste and there is a non BoD Greenwing build right there. Does it have a bunch of "sexy units"? No but it seems pretty effective to me.

 

DoC

[jeremy1391]

There is also the 2k battle company build, 100 marines will give most people problems :)

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Whew just beat ya Jeremy

[Tiger9gamer]

I'm looking for games that are fun for me and my opponent, so not always "beardy" lists. also, I had some experiences running a "mech build" but most of those where bad :|

 

also, thanks for all the ideas so far! It's really helping me out of this rut. 

[jeremy1391]

Battle company or "greenwing" are great fun an if anyone calls tacs, devs and assault marines beards then they are a jerk! Basically battle company lists are like a Swiss Army knife. Not as hard hitting as a meat cleaver, or as precise as a scalpel but it can do a bit of everything. A jack of all trades, as marines were designed to be! You don't need any gimmicks or fills, just a bunch of marines filling the three basic combat roles.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Fully agree with Jeremy there. Also if you don't want to mech use a Drop Pod as it will get your Tac's exactly where you need/want immediately. Also it allows you to get a Command Squad with specials in it properly placed. All plasma or some such. I also agree that they will do decently and if you keep two tac squads in support of each other you will be doing pretty well.

[Prot]

I am reading this with interest as I mentioned a while ago I was getting into Dark Angels and was looking for advice.

 

At first I was sure I'd go Deathwing for my love of terminators but found it very hard against the most competitve players. Now I intend to switch gears as I just bought a lot of stuff to kick start a Ravenwing army but the bike count is so low I'm not sure anymore. Sammael also seems... a little too expensive?

 

I haven't played a Ravenwing game yet, but I was hoping someone can explain the Salvo 2/3 rule to me? It also says Rapid Fire? Right? So what does that mean exactly? Am I shooting Bike bolters 3 times at 24" ???

 

I'm still trying to get a grasp on the army.

[Brother dean]

That's 2/4, Two shots if you move at up to half range and 4 shots at full range if you didnt move.  Relentless on Bikes means they always fire 4...

 

I wish my Dark Shroud would live past turn 2....   :-(

[jeremy1391]

It's actually salvo 2/4 so if you move it's 2 shots at 12" and if you stay still it's 4 shots at 24" so a tactical squad with 10 bolters is putting out 40 shots at 24 inches if it stood still.

[Onisuzume]

just a bunch of marines filling the three basic combat roles.

Shooting, shooting, and more shooting?

Also, 76-ish marines is do-able at 1.500 points.

[Zepyrous]

I am reading this with interest as I mentioned a while ago I was getting into Dark Angels and was looking for advice.

At first I was sure I'd go Deathwing for my love of terminators but found it very hard against the most competitve players. Now I intend to switch gears as I just bought a lot of stuff to kick start a Ravenwing army but the bike count is so low I'm not sure anymore. Sammael also seems... a little too expensive?

I haven't played a Ravenwing game yet, but I was hoping someone can explain the Salvo 2/3 rule to me? It also says Rapid Fire? Right? So what does that mean exactly? Am I shooting Bike bolters 3 times at 24" ???

I'm still trying to get a grasp on the army.

Well I think Sammael is not to expensive because he´s bringing some nice benefits.

1. He makes your RW bike squadrons "Standard".

2. He gives the squad he joins "Skilled Rider".

3. With WS6 he´s a decent close combat character and his DS2 mastercrafted Sword can deal with PA as well as Terminators.

4. If something went wrong (like he´s been hit by a weapon which ignores cover), he also has his 4+ inv. save.

Acutally it´s even better. Through the salvo 2/4 rule, all your squads withing 6" of the BoD get 2 shots at 12" if they´ve moved and 4 shots at 24" if they don´t. Well biker are relentless which means they can allways shoot 4 sync. shots at 24" range

Guess that´s the reason why RW with BoD is one of the most popular builds for the new DA-Dex ^^

[jeremy1391]

Onisuzume assault marines while able to shoot their pistols and flamers make a great counter attack unit in the event someone makes it to your lines, and devastator marines while shooty are shooting at heavy threats like MC and tanks. So the three basic marine roles of Tactical, assault and dev estate are covered.

[Tiger9gamer]

How can we build a good mixxed wing though?

[Prot]

Thanks for the clarity guys (on Salvo). I still wonder how useful that standard is to non-bike marines where zipping around in your shooting phase gets you the most out of it?

[Darkangeldentist]

I think that depends on quite how mixed you want it?

 

I've found that for me, a couple of tactical squads always makes a solid basis for a list. Now with the lowered price of tacticals it's easier to fit them in and we can also get heavy weapons into small units as well so that tends to be where I start. HQ, well you can't really go wrong with a librarian, one of the named special characters is generally a good bet (except for Asmodai alas) since most of them open up further options for troops and then it's all a matter of what you feel like. A devastator squad is the only other staple I tend to rely on. For for mixed wing I think you could field anything close to the following and not be disappointed.

 

Librarian, bike or terminator armour and your choice of goodies. Will generally come to about 120pts if level one or 150pts for level 2.

Deathwing squad, no need to go overboard but anything up to 300pts should work out well.

Two full tactical squads, your choice of toys. (Assume about 200pts a squad.)

Small tactical squad with heavy weapon. (To be honest I love having a small unit for objective camping and lobbing plasma towards the enemy.Will come to about 100pts)

Ravenwing unit (attack squadron with attack bike or black knights but if the latter then consider them as a command squad depending on how many you want and the points you intend to splash on them) Full attack squadron with attack bike even with toys is still less than 250pts

Devastators, small or large with whatever mix of weapons will support the rest of the army. I've tended to have fun with 6 man units and a focus on mostly missiles which comes to about 150pts

 

Now there's quite a lot of leeway there and the full tactical squads will almost certainly cost a little less so the last points can be spend on pretty much whatever you like. A drop pod dread is fun but you can just as easily do this with a command squad. No need to go with a banner, put them in a drop pod and give them all special weapons, flamers, meltaguns, plasma your choice and with the drop pod you can use it to help break up the table and block line of sight. Both for the command squad and the deathwing assault. A command squad with drop pod and 5 melta guns is less than 200pts and means certain death to any tank on turn one almost every time. Not a nice surprise for any squad or monster (save the Avatar) either really but you get the idea.

 

The key is that between the core of tacticals which give you a decent base of bodies and mid-range firepower and aggressive or reactionary units like the deathwing and ravenwing you can put up a good fight against almost anything. Ravenwing and Deathwing assault make for an amazing aggressive turn one flanking threat. If you aren't going first then careful castling of the tacticals and devastators can hold the enemy off and draw their forward elements in so that outflanking bikes and deep striking terminators can surprise and take out their back line. Choice of HQ can make this game winning as one or the other becomes troops and makes one of these capturing units scoring. I'd also never under-estimate what can be achieved by basic tactical marines with a little luck and clever application.