Submarine Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Hi. I want to start a space marine army. I have narrowed it down the space wolves, grey knights or ultramarines. I will be fighting necrons a lot so I want a tactical army that is good against them and generally competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeger Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I can't speak for the Grey Knights, as there has never really been any in my meta. But I can say this, shooting it out with Necrons sucks for my codex marines. I'd highly recommend drop pods, teleporters, infiltrators, and or outflankers. Anything to get you stuck in ASAP. I know the Ultramarines can do all that, and so can the Wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Ultramarines and Grey Knights are better than SW at dealing with the aerial threat that Necrons pose... Necrons are better than Marines at combat between 12 - 24". You need to either hit them up close or from greater distance. Hope this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 The problem with what you're asking is that no army list or codex is tactically better than any other. Tactics are in the mind of the player -- knowing what, when, where, and how to move, shoot, or assault into in order to control the battle. What you seem to be asking is, "Which of these three codices is the most effective against Necrons?" And again, it's a tricky answer. The Wolves are better at the assault game than Codex Marines, and most Necron units can't take the kind of abuse a full pack of Grey Hunters can dish out. Psychic powers like Jaws of the World Wolf and access to the Divination discipline make Rune Priests important as force multipliers and indeed, in the case of JWW, as a primary damage dealer in light of a Necron army's low Initiative score. On the other hand, Codex Marines bring a lot of special tools to a fight that exceptional against Necrons. The psychic power Null Zone is perfect for countering the invulnerable saves of the ever-popular Wraiths, while Thunderfire Cannons make short work of scarab swams and MSU Warrior squads that hit the table. Unlike the Wolves, Codex Marines also bring two types of flyers to the table -- the Storm Raven and its little brother, the Storm Talon -- and both of them are popular as interceptors, ideal for shooting down the ubiquitous Necron Night Scythe. Grey Knights seem to enjoy something of a middle ground; spamming psycannons provides adequate mid-range firepower especially when combined with massed psybolt stormbolters. Every power armored model in the codex also carries a power weapon of some kind, and the Knights as a whole have access to their own psychic power -- in this case, Hammerhands -- that upgrades their assault threat to Necrons from "bad" to "worse." In closing, for us to truly help you, we need to get a feel for your tactical preferences. Do you want to shoot them into the ground? Punch them hard in the face? A combination of both, perhaps? Do you favor jump infantry, drop pods, Infiltrators, Outflankers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Submarine Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 Thanks for those replies. I guess I prefer a varied playstyle. I won't just be playing necrons but they will be my regular opponent. I am a completely new 40k player so want an army that is reasonably forgiving to use and has some varied units. I don't want a one trick pony army but if i was pushed i would say i am probably the sort of player that likes softening up an opponent with shooting first before charging in. By the way, I also would consider allies. It crossed my mind to use a space wolf/imperial guard alliance. I have played fantasy for many years so I am not totally new to the world of tabletop gaming. I also don't want an army that has many models and is difficult to paint. I hope all this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Use allies and take the best from two dexes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I ask you to consider the following. Which faction do you like the most (background wise)? Which faction appeals to you the most, when it comes to hobby aspects. What I'm asking is, which army will you enjoy painting a modeling? All three codices are fine. The space marine codex is probably considered the weakest (but not by much), but it is also very likely to the next of the three to be updated.... Then it may be the best of the three... Rules come and go but your models will last. Grey Knights and Space Wolves also allow you to make very small (and cheap) armies. These armies might not be the best, but if you want a quick start (or you travel a lot) they are worth considering. You can always add to the army and make it more competitive as your collection expands. The 4th option (if you haven't considered it) is to make your own chapter... swap between codices as you please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naminé Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I cannot comment on Space Wolves or Grey Knights, but I have faced Necrons more then any other army with my Space Marines and they are perfectly capable of winning each time. One thing I enjoy about the vanilla codex is there are so many options to suit your playstyle, as such you can use a different list everytime and still win. Playing against necrons, fast moving melta is always good, along with some kind of close combat crumping and ways to deal with ranks of troops. Long-range weaponry does well against the necrons shorter-ranges. If you are considering Imperial guard allies then look into officer of the fleet(? - I forget the actual name, but the one who messes with opponant's reserves) and Hydras. Oh yes :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Submarine Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 Thanks guys. We don't play special characters to answer the last post. In terms of models and background I like and don't like aspects of the grey knights and space wolves. I like the Viking imagery but not so sure about the guys riding giant wolves. I like the medieval imagery of the grey knights but I think some of the HQ models will be tough for me to paint because I am not the worlds greatest painter. I don't know about the army playstyles I guess that's what I am interested in. I enjoy shooting using different vehicles and fighting. So I don't want a one style army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naminé Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 My gut instinct from your posts is that you would enjoy Codex Marines or Grey Knights more then Space Wolves, but this is purely my opinion. One thing to consider is that you can always make your own chapter that uses the kind of rules, imagery and lore that you like. It does take more effort but if you are into creativity and putting your own stamp on something then it is a lot of fun to do so. A big factor in deciding an army should be how much you like the aesthetics. After painting rows and rows of tiny little men are you going to still enjoy it, or will it be a chore? Protect your sanity :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 And there was me all ready to say that Dante is tactically the best SM ever... I'd suggest C:SM, though you could always hold off for a few weeks and see whats in the new codex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 If we all worried about being great at painting hardly anyone would collect! The GK models have a lot of detail and being metallic in their colour scheme means you can easily paint them up nicely using washes. That said as has been mentioned it really sounds like you'd prefer Wolves or Ultras. You don't have to use Thunderwolves and other aspects you don't like The current Marine codex might not be the "greatest" but it is certainly strong enough to win just fine - it has aged well and not many codices can say that so easily. That's ignoring the upcoming update too. You could run a Codex: Space Marines army but use Wolf parts to model a wolf/noridic themed chapter if you like? The possibilities are almost endless Sounds like that might be what you want (full disclosure: veteran Codex Chapter player!) as the Wolves are reasonably restricted in how they play compared to C:SM. I would say the most important thing is not to pick an army on what you're facing or might face or even want to beat. Your nemesis codex will change, as will your chosen one and suddenly it might not be relevant any more. A codex picked because you love the army is never irrelevant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Submarine Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 Thanks guys. Can someone summarise the essential differences between the ultramarines SW and the GK in terms of tactics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Codex Marines in their current incarnation (they should be receiving an update before the year is out) are a primarily shooting army. Their baseline special rules reflect this, giving them an option to duck out of close combat in order to resume shooting. Aside from the Thunderfire Cannon and the Conversion Beamer, they don't have any unique or especially devastating weapons; they just have plenty of them and numerous ways to bring them to a fight. They do have some good assault options (and some not so good), but they are a minority in a codex that ideally want to sit at about 12-24" and plug away with guns. Space Wolves are one the best generalist armies in the game, in that their core Troops choice (called Grey Hunters) is by default both good at shooting and assaulting. They can also back them up with other good shooting units -- like Long Fangs, which carry nothing but heavy weapons -- and with other good assault units -- like the much-maligned Thunderwolf Cavalry and squads of elite Wolf Guard. Going by your earlier statement that you want to be able to weaken the enemy with shooting and finish him off in close combat, I'd say that Wolves are a good fit because they can do exactly that. On the painting side, getting a decent-looking gray color isn't all that hard to pull off, either. Grey Knights can, to a certain extent, also mix good shooting and good assaulting. The difference is that Wolves drown you in normal attacks, while Grey Knights rely on fewer but harder-hitting attacks in close combat. Another key difference in the shooting department is the much more limited weapon types available to Grey Knights; their gear is specialized, so they don't have quite as common access to the standard breadth of Imperial heavy weapons as Codex Marines or Space Wolves do, which makes it harder to utilize at top efficiency. As a beginner to 40K and judging by what you had previously stated as a tactical preference, I'm going to suggest that Space Wolves seem to fit how you envision yourself playing. That being said, I'm sure there will be some dissenting opinions, so I'd recommend you listen to all the advice given here before leaping into the Space Wolves head first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Submarine Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 Thats really helpful, thanks. That is pretty much how I saw the armies. Although I would like to have access to a flyer in my army, am I right in saying that Space Wolves don't have this option? Imperial allies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 yes and yes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickeh Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Both Space Marines and Grey Knights have access to the Storm Raven with slight weapon variations, only Space Marines currently have access to the Storm Talon, Space Wolves do not have access to a flyer without resorting to allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huginn Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 IMO the SM codex is a very strategically flexible codex. You can build a list to fight any army well. Not so sure about SW. GK have more flexible troops once on the field I feel. They are both shooty and choppy. Their codex as a whole though feels less flexible than SM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickeh Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 SM are rumoured to be the next 40k codex getting an update, October seems to be the popular rumour right now so could be worth waiting and seeing what changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 You should go with the Ultras as they are both the most varied and also the next to be updated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Thats really helpful, thanks. That is pretty much how I saw the armies. Although I would like to have access to a flyer in my army, am I right in saying that Space Wolves don't have this option? Imperial allies? If your group is happy with FW rules, I think that SWs might be able to take the Storm Eagle or the Ceastus Assault Ram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Submarine Posted July 10, 2013 Author Share Posted July 10, 2013 I might wait for the SM codex but I prefer the models in the space wolf army. I could proxy them as standard space marines I guess but I like the idea of a space marine army with character. I am currently thinking space wolves with imperial allies although I am open to building an ultramarine army. I want an army which hasn't got loads of models to paint which is why a specialised SM army appeals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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