New Krieg Lists Review

[FashaTheDog]

I had meant to review the Assault List first, but I did the Siege Regiment first.  I will post a reply later on with the Assault list later on.

 

After eagerly reading through the new Death Korps of Krieg Siege list that was posted today, I find myself kind of disappointed; I will still play them and enjoy the army, but it just feels like Forgeworld felt rushed updating the Siege list and copy pasted from IA12 at midnight last night to get it posted today.  To elaborate:

Special Rules: No surprise here about the loss of pseudo-stubborn for not needing morale tests from shooting as it was in the Assault list and does fit the WWI theme better as the numbing effects of bombardments means they won't flee from that, but if they assault a trench they can be repulsed.  However, not including the Krieg specific orders and Warlord traits from the Assault list was a shame and a half.

Also the many squads can now take a power fist.

 

EDIT: I just noticed that while references are made to senior and junior officers, nowhere in the rules does it state that the Siege Regiment can issue orders.  Another oversight of the list.

HQ
Company Command: I was furious with the Assault list for it and am now with the Siege list for it; a refractor field on the HQ is a travesty!  In the FAQ of the last Siege list they went out of their way to state that such wargear was distinctly agains Krieg doctrine.  So I will take a marker to that and remove the stain from my print out.  Rant aside, the 25 point increase (factoring in the 15 points for the mandatory Regimental Standard) seems a bit much even though the officer got carapace armor as well and the squad only pays half the old cost.  The squad can also no longer buy krak grenades.

Commissar General: No change

Quatermaster: Went up in cost by 20% but now is a 6" bubble of FNP instead of one unit within 2".  The unit also lost a servitor, but can buy two additional one and the unit gain the Krieg special rules.

ELITES
Grenadiers: A 30% reduction and expanded options makes them cheaper than Infantry Squads and better in every way except for the fact that they are not scoring.  The only option they lost was the demo charge.  In other words same as the Assault list except for the lack of a Storm Chimera option.  You can see the IA12 cut and paste job under the transport options as they are referred to as Storm Grenadiers there.

Rapier: A small increase in cost that is well justified from the usefulness of the unit and making the crew Engineers was all expected as the entry is identical to the Assault list.

Field Artillery Battery: Again an increase in points and loss of the accurate rule on the Heavy Mortar, but there is no option for the carcass shells from the Assault list.

TROOPS
Infantry Command: As krak grenades are standard the increase in cost is bearable and now you can buy the officer carapace armor plus the platoon standard is cheaper, but there is no longer an option to take a Centaur for them.

Infantry Squad: Same as the Assault list, but without the Forlorn Hope option.  That means they are considerably more expensive than gas mask-less Guard.  The lack of the combined squad rule and inability to purchase Commissars compounds the trouble the unit has.  The included krak grenades means that the squad actually did not see a total price hike, but what was an unnecessary option is now mandatory and not offset by a special rule.  On the plus side you can buy platoon standards for them, although I would call them guidons and model them as triangle since it would be excessive that a single platoon could potentially have seven standards.

Heavy Weapon Squads: Another price hike with the krak grenades made mandatory and they too lost the combined squad rule.

Engineers: Went down in price by 10 points.  Along with the standard character weapon options plus the choice to take any of the regular special weapons or the old demo charge and a heavy flamer and the unit is improved over the old version.  They did lose gas grenades which is sad as they were a flavorful (mustard flavored perhaps) option that will be missed.  The mole mortar changed too so that it no longer hits targets more than 12" away on the next turn.  Kind of sad, but understandable if one was looking to streamline it.  There is one rather significant nerf to this unit and that is in regards to the Hades Breaching Drill.  Not because of the change to the Drill itself, but any Engineer squad that takes one becomes an Elites choice, which means that the Siege list has absolutely no scoring units capable of moving more than 6" (or 12" with a good run roll) unless they hijack a Centaur from the HQ, Grenadiers, or Field Artillery.

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS
Centaur Carrier: Searchlights and smoke launchers are now standard and the hunter killer missile is an option.  Extra armor and the dozer blade became cheaper, but you can no longer fire an embarked special weapon as if it were a weapon mounted on the vehicle, which is a shame but bearable.  It is also nice that extra armor is optional now for Grenadier Centaurs

Hades Breaching Drill: No change from the Assault list except for some each column of special rules having its own box instead of sharing one.  Those changes do make the Drill harder to use, but what kills its usefulness the most is not delivering a scoring unit anymore.  If the transported Engineers were still scoring it would be fine as is.

FAST ATTACK
Cyclops: Went up in points and now detonates as an Initiative 10 assault.  It is also no longer a vehicle, but Infantry with only a toughness and wounds, no other characteristics, including Leadership.  That means that it is automatically removed as a casualty at deployment per page 3 for having no Strength characteristic.  Barring that any kind Leadership test like Psychic Scream or Hypnotic Gaze automatically succeeds.  Barring that oversight, it means Cyclops are slower than they used to be.

Hellhound Squadron: Much like the Assault list version; searchlight and smoke launchers now free and the mine plow is an option.

Deathrider Command: Now here instead of an HQ, but that is a good thing since they are part of a platoon just like in the Assault list; copy pasted from in fact.  One of only two units that can take a power weapon that is not a power sword, specifically a power axe.  The Squadron Commander can take a demo charge which is all kinds of awesome.

Deatheriders: Cheaper than before with the new ability to re-roll dangerous terrain failures, but the gas masks on the horses no longer confer an invulnerable save, which means that the days of gas masks protecting from 16.66% of all volcano cannons are over.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Heavy Weapons Platoon: Like other entries an IA12 cut and paste job.  That means no Command Squad, one less heavy weapon squad, and no combined squads.  

Thunderer Siege Squadron: Same as before, but with the mine plow option.

Leman Russ Squadron: Annihilators and Conquerors went up 20 points.  The Vanquisher's co-axial weapon went up five points and the mine plow is now an option.  In other words, the same as the Assault list.

Bombard Battery: Actually it's not a Bombard battery, it is a Colossus squadron.

Heavy Artillery Battery: Can buy an additional crew member and the crew now have frag and krak grenades.  Now a Centaur can tow them.  That's good news.  Bad news is that the battery does have the option to take a free Trojan per gun, nor can it purchase any Centaurs of its own.  The Medusa Siege Gun is now only a 36" weapon just like the Medusa Siege Cannon.  Figured it was coming, but still a change to note as the gun will have to be used differently.

NEW UNITS
[ELITES] Hydra Platform: Immobile anti-air is fitting, although I always liked the idea that list's trouble dealing with aircraft was particularly fluff.  I suppose with the nerf to the Siege Regiment's ability to reach far off objectives, it is fine.

[HEAVY SUPPORT] Navy Air Support: Hey look, more cut and paste from the Assault list.  Thunderbolts (hell yeah), Lightnings, and Avengers are your choices here.  The squadron needs to be a single type of aircraft, but that only makes sense.  Still, I find them to feel a bit out of place in thiselist, so I won't use them.

[Dono1979]

^{Nice work and thanks for the write up}

[Emperors Immortals]

Thankyou, i have mixed feelings about this new list and your write up has just made it more difficult.

 

Im thinking between the changes to the riders and the quartermasters new bubble, im going to have to re-write almost my entire list, even seriously consider houserules/ normal guard, which until now I have avoided.

 

Ill be sure to read your assault list review, again thanks for this write up.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Thanks for writing this up. I've been running my Kreig models using regular IG rules and have been mulling whether to use Forgeworld rules. I'm still unsure after reading the review and will be interested to read your review of the assault list (where is that anyway? I only saw the seige list on the Forgeworld downloads page).

[FashaTheDog]

Now to follow, the review of the Assault list in IA12:

Special Rules: Much like the Siege Regiment's except the Krieg specific orders are fitting. The two junior officer orders, Without Mercy and Dispersed Advance are spectacular orders. The former turns your laspistols and guns into short ranged assault weapons, perfect for that final volley as you charge into melee, while the latter gives move through cover and counter-attack until the next shooting phase, so you still get your charge bonus or can get that extra bit you need to clear the barbed wire as you go over the top. The other order, Duty unto Death is good for that extra morale boost if you think you need it. You lose Fire on my Target, Incoming, and Move Move Move, but the two JO ones more than make up for it. The Warlord traits are pretty cool as well with the chance to twin link an ordnance weapon, add and inch to nearby charges, gain preferred enemy (infantry) in enemy deployment zone, lower the save on a piece of terrain, have night fight on turn one without rolling, or be fearless with FNP 6+ near objectives. Very well thought out set of traits for the list.

The Forlorn Hope: It gets its own listing because it is rather neat. In essence you place an additional objective that can only ever be claimed by Krieg in your foe's deployment zone within specific parameters. If you claim it, you get 2 VPs, otherwise failing to do so means your foe gets one without having to claim it. In return for crossing the table you get to recycle destroyed Infantry Platoons. This can be tricky as the entire platoon must have been killed or fled off the table. In some missions you won't want to declare this as you will give up too many VPs or you have larger platoons. However, in the right situations and missions, like my first foray with this list, it can be a game changer as you can casually throw away units with reckless abandon making even Chankov complain about the waste of men. In that first game we played 2,000 points and his Necrons killed some 4,000 points of Krieg and I still won as I sent a unit on to shoot some rusty xenos, die, and had better resurrection protocols than the Necrons did.

HQ

Marshal Venner: A named character in Krieg? Heresy! Well not really as he is the specific guy from IA12's story. Really he is just a Fantasy General (you know to go with the BSB in his Command Squad) who gets a few bonus attacks at the end of combat and stubborn for giggles. Otherwise he is just part of any other Company Command squad. I'll never use him in favor of whatever Colonel number whatever I usually run.

Company Command: That refractor field angers me to no end and I refuse to use it. Now, similar to what I said about the same unit in the Siege list, but better. The Master of Ordnance is replaced by a Krieg Artillerist who is similar, but fire D3 shots that are of a lower strength and worse AP, but has WS4 so is a proper addition. The Fleet Officer and Astropath are also booted from the Regiment in favor of a Quartermaster and Tech-priest Militant, the latter of which is like an Enginseer, but can also add +1 to armor penetration rolls of nearby assault or heavy weapons. There are also the three Regimental Standard upgrades, of which you can only ever have one of the three no matter the army size (although if you had two full regiments worth of Krieg on the table I bet there would not be a soul in the world who would deny you a second one ). These are nothing shy of genius. One, the Banner of Martyrdom is my favorite as it makes you want to charge Bloodthirsters and the like with your Command Squad since death in the assault of that squad give you a VP. Obviously the best use is to take two Company Command Squads and put the upgraded standard in the unit that is not your warlord, but I like the idea of just negating the slay the warlord point and it just seems fluffier that way. The Ossary of the Blessed Dead is also particularly cool as T4 Command Squads, especially with all the extras, is pretty appealing. Yet the Icon of Righteous Spite screams TAKE ME!!!!!!! TAKE ME!!!!!!!!!!!! as it gives all units it normally affects the additional fluff bonus of Hatred (Chaos Marines, Chaos Daemons, Psykers, and FW Traitor Guard lists), I mean how much more fluff awesomeness can you pack into single piece of wargear? There is an item that the Officer can take, the Momento Mori, which grants a one phase only eternal warrior, triggered automatically. Finally, the squad cannot take a Centaur, but rather it can take a Storm Chimera.

Quartermaster: Same as the Siege list.

ELITES

Engineers: Identical to the Siege list, but as Elites, they are meh. Not a good choice, but certainly not a bad one either. They do compete against a few usually better choices. They do, however, have one redeeming option, Carcass shot which adds shred and gets hot, making those shotguns reliably able to wound things, yours and theirs (remember on Krieg friendly fire is a sign of affection).

Griffon Battery: Hey, not bad at all, take a squadron of Griffons as Elites. Like most Krieg tanks, mine plows are an option, but they also have access to Carcass Shells. These babies get hot and reduce the strength by a point but ignore cover and gain shred. Since Griffons are accurate, this makes them pretty...pretty...good to quote Larry David.

Leman Russ Command Tank: Pay a small fee for a non-unique Pask and the ability to allow barrage weapons to draw line of sight from the Leman Russ instead. Good luck on keeping it alive though as your foe will blast it apart at their first chance.

Hydra Flak Battery: As fitting for the assault list that is supposed to be racing across no man's land, the anti-air is on treads.

Rapier: Same as the Siege list's, but depending upon your list here, it may not fit as well thanks to the more mobile nature of this army.

TROOPS

Infantry Platoon: Just like the Siege list, but better in some cases as you can potentially bring them back. The only difference here is that you cannot take Heavy Weapon Squads.

Grenadiers: Here is where they belong. As a scoring unit they really do lead the charge across the table in the game like they do in the fluff. They cannot return when destroyed through Forlorn Hope, but they are a rather solid choice.

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

Storm Chimera: A Chimera in a Krieg list does feel strange, but they mandate the extra armor and track guards and the fluff even states that this is really the only Krieg formation that employs them, so it works. It also makes the Forlorn Hope reasonably possible.

Centaur: Same as the Siege lists, although fewer units can take them due to the above Storm Chimera's presence.

Hades Breaching Drill: Just like the Siege list's only no need to worry about it making your Engineers Elites, since they're already there. Despite this, I can see a few uses for the, and pardon the lame joke, nerfed to Hades and back drill with the rest of the list's mobility.

FAST ATTACK

Hellhound Squadron: Jest like the Codex and Siege list counter parts. If you know them there, you know them here.

Deathrider Platoon: Same as the Siege list's, but they mesh better here thanks to the greater overall army speed.

Salamander Squadron: Hot damn, I've always loved this scout tank and the inclusion with this list is pretty sweet. Just think of it as an Armored Sentinel with a heavy bolter and an autocannon on treads if you need me to draw you a picture.

HEAVY SUPPORT

Heavy Weapons Platoon: Like the Siege list's but the smaller size from the original and lack of a command squad here makes some sense as the formation is really supposed to be hoofing it across the blasted no man's land.

Thunderer Siege Squadron: A Krieg flavored unit here to stay.

Leman Russ Squadron: Like the Siege list the Conqueror and Annhiliator are 20 points more, but with the increased mobility I can justify the cost of those two as the mobile platforms mean much more in this list than in the stationary Siege list. Otherwise nothing more to say here that I did not already say about them in the Siege review.

Ordnance Tank Battery: Medusi, Basilisks, and Colossi, oh my! Like the Guard codex, but with mine plow options. In a mobile Krieg list, the artillery should be likewise and best of all they do not compete for FOC slots with Griffons.

Field Artillery Battery: I think it was a missed modeling opportunity, but the Thudd Gun could have gone on the Griffon chassis as an additional option to make a like counterpart, but I suppose even now the sculptors are a little burned out from the past flurry of Krieg. Now what makes this a nice choice is two things: first is the unit type of artillery and second isthat you can really go nuts with the both the Griffons and Field artillery. Anyone with experience playing Krieg will tell you just how wonderful heavy mortars and thudd guns are and to be able to pack in even more, some, perhaps all as Thudd Guns, as the much coveted artillery unit type and others on mobile and accurate Griffons.

Navy Air Support: Like the Siege list, but here it makes sense as you can imagine that Assault list is a small part of a front wide offensive and not All's Quiet on the Western Front like that the Siege list is supposed to represent.

EDIT:

COMPARISON

The Assault list is great, it really is. The effort and care is clearly shown in the end result and while there are a few minor gripes I have about it, and one major one (that warp-damned refractor ), it is a good list and one I approve of. Sadly there are just enough issues with the updated Siege list as to be really frustrating, the biggest one seeming to be the rushed feel of it. I would rather have waited longer and gotten a better written list. The old list was a little dated, but not terribly so thanks to the FAQs. Really, Forgeworld could actually fix the Siege list with only minor tweaks, a full cut and paste of the Company Command Squad, banners, orders, and warlord traits, the addition of carcass shells and shot, allow Engineers to remain Troops if they take a Drill, perhaps giving the platoons back combined squad even if they could not mix and match heavy weapons squads with infantry ones, and returning the Infantry Squads back to 60 points with the krak grenades being optional. If they really wanted to go overboard, then change the senior officer orders to have Bring It Down replaced with a true Krieg order that would allow the recipient to fire into close combat with all misses hitting friendly troops instead (Gun Them Down?). Another really cool option would be a Medusa shell to make it barrage again. Perhaps even offering a Krieg specific fortification like trench lines with optional bunker, you know something that could spur sales of the Wall of Martyrs even further while adding a really fluffy new choice.

Now will I stop playing the Siege list? No, it is still fine, but it did take a bit of a hit and is sloppy. I hope Forgeworld shows their traditional care and fixes some of the issues in it. An edit would be best, but an FAQ would suffice. I am a die hard Krieg fan so it will take much worse than this, but even so the list is not fatally flawed, it just really needs a cleaning and a couple of tweaks to make it a great fun list. Until then, the Assault list will be the superior of the two as opposed to a different style.

[spafe]

I have only jsut read through the siege list, so not had time to fully take a lot in, but the engineers seemed like a nice thing to have some elite options. My intial thought was, 2 units of 5 with demo charges, melta bombs and drills as elites, then 2 units of 10 with demos, heavy flamers (the works), as troops who follow up and take objectives. This still gives you a few troops choices for a platoon or two to hold home objectives.

 

The engineers who become elites can take troop enigineers with them, which I think is a major help.

 

It also alows for 90 engineers in a army! madness!

[hendrik]

does the fornlorn apply for each platoon? or do you place one objective for each platoon, I've understood the infantry squads are more expensive because of it as well.

The main viable tactic I can think of is getting 2-3 minimum platoons that charge forward into the fray. By the time a platoon is wiped out it's likely turn 3-4 so these guys will then only be used to grab objectives in our own turn.

[Selleck]

I can't deside on running the Assault or Seige list - but I can deside on running a couple of flyers...

 

Anyone has any advise on which flyers to choose - and with which loadout?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Thanks again -- the assault list sounds right up my alley.

 

I want to make sure I get the right book ... Imperial Armour 12, right?

[Warhead01]

I looked at the siege list and it looks like it is unfinished. even a reference to using orders or traits from the assault list would have added a lot to it. I don'e understand the lack of orders or lack of combined squad. I am not even sure FW sells the hydra platform any more, unless this means it will be making a comeback ? In a way it reminds me of the old 3rd edition codex style 

 It is becoming clear I will need more kriegsmen with either list.

Thank you for the review.

[WarriorFish]

Maybe the Hydra platform will appear as part of Apoc? Stranger things have happened...

 

More appropriately I've always liked the men of Krieg (not that you could ever dislike a regiment!) but I've not really known all that much about their rules. Having read the download from FW I have a solid idea now, but it does feel like they really need to be done with the proper Korps models. Running normal Guardsmen as the DKoK would seem a bit strange, certain pieces being FW only aside.

 

Maybe one day when I've won the lottery... I'd have to start playing first though :P

[FashaTheDog]

Spafe, note that only the Watchmaster gets melta bombs and that any Troop Engineers that follow up through the tunnel(s) automatically mishap if they do not have room to "disembark" from the 3" template entry point and cannot change their minds and enter from reserve normally.  They must also nominate a specific Drill as well and risk destruction if the Drill's -2 mishap roll sees it destroyed.  It makes it tough to get the units on the table; not impossible, just hard against most foes.  The Hades' big issue on arrival is that even a successful tank shock could still see the drill not have enough room since the drill is a little longer than the 3" template  is round.  So a unit moves 1" away from the template, encircling it, and the Drill then mishaps with a -2 to that roll, affecting all attached Engineers.  A warning to consider.

Hendrik, Forlorn Hope is a single objective total and applies to all Infantry Platoons in your primary detachment(s) and if you run them at minimum size, avoid cover, and the mission and/or enemy army sees his force rushing your deployment zones, then you can easily have a revolving door where a platoon is destroyed, returned for a turn of shooting, destroyed again, and brought back the next turn.  I did it against Necrons in a Relic game and it worked wonderfully.  It just requires that if you opt to use it, you play to exploit it.  A list with three small platoons or so, but is otherwise quite solid tends to strike the balance for games where you do not use it and games where you do.  It is not an option you will elect every game as some missions and enemy armies do not play well for it.  In those ones, you do not elect its use and use the small platoons carefully as if you had them in a Siege Regiment.  The cost of the Infantry Squads is actually the same as it used to be, except that they have krak grenades purchased automatically and they lost combined squads rule.  This means that the option for Forlorn Hope balances the otherwise situational wargear and the loss of a strong rule.

Selleck, the lists are so close, you can run both with only a couple of units that do not translate between lists.  Those units are Lord Commissars, Storm Chimeras, Griffons, Siege Carriages, Salamanders, Hydras, and Hydra emplacements, with that last two being very easy to make interchangeable as you can simply place the turret on the vehicle hull or on an stationary mount.  The Lord Commissar could play the roll of a normal Commissar, and the others are just going to have remain in your Company armory when not in use.  The vast majority, however easily can be run as one or the other if you keep the Engineers and Grenadiers somewhat limited and rely on Infantry Platoons.  As for aircraft, I have always had a soft spot for the Thunderbolt, but your choice of aircraft will depend upon the roll you wish it to fill.  The Avenger makes for a good ground attack while the Lightning is a delicate interceptor (although it can be set to focus on ground targets instead) and the Thunderbolt is a tough versatile workhorse.  Your best bet is to figure out what you intend to use the air support for and then build accordingly.

 

Also, I just noticed that the war gear section of the Siege list is a mess.  There are things in there missing and others that are listed but not in the army list.

[Selleck]

Selleck, the lists are so close, you can run both with only a couple of units that do not translate between lists. Those units are Lord Commissars, Storm Chimeras, Griffons, Siege Carriages, Salamanders, Hydras, and Hydra emplacements, with that last two being very easy to make interchangeable as you can simply place the turret on the vehicle hull or on an stationary mount. The Lord Commissar could play the roll of a normal Commissar, and the others are just going to have remain in your Company armory when not in use. The vast majority, however easily can be run as one or the other if you keep the Engineers and Grenadiers somewhat limited and rely on Infantry Platoons. As for aircraft, I have always had a soft spot for the Thunderbolt, but your choice of aircraft will depend upon the roll you wish it to fill. The Avenger makes for a good ground attack while the Lightning is a delicate interceptor (although it can be set to focus on ground targets instead) and the Thunderbolt is a tough versatile workhorse. Your best bet is to figure out what you intend to use the air support for and then build accordingly.

FarshaTheDog: thanks for the advice!

Regard which list to run, I am leaning towards the assault list. But as you say, it's very easy to swap between the two. Especially since I would like to run a lot of infantry units ( fingers crossed that I win the lottery ), some Hydras and some big guns - supported by a few flyers.

For the flyers, so I am mostly considering The Avenger, mainly because I like the look of it ( even if it is kinda Star Wars Pod Racer ) with The Lightning in second place, with The Thunderbolt right after. Damn it! I think they are all pretty cool.

But it will probably end up with the one, that I like the best - especially with the prices that GW and Forgeworld have these days - if I have to spend £ 200+ on a couple of models, they have to be the ones, that I also would like to make and paint.