And the Supplement for CSM is....

[Sception]

Ahem. Black Legion.

At least, that's the rumor according to Warseer rumor monger Best_Pone. Link Here

Furthermore, we're supposedly getting this Black Legion supplement far sooner than we expected to see any CSM supplement at all. Next in the supplement line, actually, before even the Tau Farsight supplement.

 

So, I've heard from a little birdy that Black Legion will be getting the next supplement. No idea if that will be August or not though, seeing as August is a WFB month.

 

Now, BP apparently has a strong record on the rumor front, though of course they could be wrong, as there's a first time for everything. But just to emphasize, this isn't any kind of official announcement or confirmation or anything, it's just a rumor out of the blue.


--------------

As for my thoughts, well, here's what I posted in the warseer thread:

 

Not questioning the rumor or anything, but....

Look, I'm a big Black Legion fan. The Black Legion are my chosen CSM force, they're how my dudes are painted, and I love them. I love how, of all the Chaos Legions, the Black Legion alone have a forward looking feel. They're the only Chaos Legion who owe as much or more to their post-heresy lore as to their pre-heresy lore. The others feel like relics that stopped mattering around the same time that they retreated into the eye. So yes, I would absolutely love and adore and purchase the hell out of a Black Legion supplement book, and probably wouldn't get other chaos supplements.

But at the same time, like the others in the thread, I'm reasonably content with how the current book handles the Black Legion. Cult supplements would have made much more sense, as they have a lot more issues. I don't even mean like an 'emperor's children' supplement - but rather a 'slaanesh cult' supplement that, of course, would cover the emperor's children, but would also cover other slaaneshi warbands, or slaanesh dedicated groups within the other unaligned legions (Former EC warbands that joined up with the black legion, the forces of an Iron Warriors smith seduced by the raw devastation of sonic weaponry, etc). And of course, you could cover slaaneshi daemon forces in the same book - allowing one supplement to serve both the CSM and Daemon books.

Yeah, that's sort of committing to four supplements for chaos, but that's still only two per chaos codex, AND each supplement would cover a broader swath of players AND they would encourage CSM players to pick up the daemon book & vice versa (in a way that the allies rules don't so much, what with both books going out of their way to avoid any synergy or interaction in the rules - to the point that they can't even join each others units, making the whole 'battle brothers' thing rather pointless). AND wouldn't this amount to committing to nine supplements for CSMs? If they only did the Black Legion, it really does feel like there would be more chaos players angry that their legion got snubbed than there would be players happy that they got supported.

Again, I'm not doubting the rumor, it's just that if its true it seems somebody in the idea department at GW really goofed on this one.

 

 

However, I think Dryaktylus made a good point:

 

Well, looking at the Iyanden book I never expected a supplement for WE, DG, TS or EC. C:Iyanden has only one restriction and only encourages the player to field a slightly different army composition. The cult legions (and their players) on the other hand are begging for a huge amount of limitations and special rules.

I guess the Black Legion will have only some subtle new options, for example not scattering when deep striking with a Chaos Lord in Terminator armour.

 

Which again, yeah, good point. Based on the Iyanden supplement, these books are mostly about fluff, not rules. New units, new equipment options, new special rules, even force org changes seem like they're out of the scope of what these supplements are aiming for. More to the point, the Iyanden book doesn't include any restrictions, either, so something like requiring or banning particular marks or units really wouldn't fit. Since these supplements aren't supposed to meaningfully alter the rules, they wouldn't really be a good tool to cover sub factions that really demand such alterations. That kind of thing might be better covered by a FW campaign list, like the Vracks thing, but then again as long as Forgeworld is entrenched in this whole Horus Heresy thing, we're probably not going to see anything like that from them, so....

--------------


That's what I've heard on the road, anyhow. Take it for what it is.

[daveNYC]

That's a much more coherent, and less spittle and obscenity filled, post than I would have produced.

 

I guess this means that GW is definitely going with a 'minimal effort for maximum bucks' (few rules, mostly fluff, pricy like a codex) approach for these things? 

 

It also means that now I'll be stuck waiting for the fourth (I believe the rumor is) HH book from FW to get some non-sucky 1k Sons rules.

 

Ah well, lucky BL dudes I guess.

[Sception]

That's a much more coherent, and less spittle and obscenity filled, post than I would have produced.

Probably because I play Black Legion myself, so I'm at least as much giddy and excited by this news as I am disappointed by what seems to be a missed opportunity to address some of the failings of our book. Like you said, 'lucky black legion players'.

I guess this means that GW is definitely going with a 'minimal effort for maximum bucks' (few rules, mostly fluff, pricy like a codex) approach for these things?

I think what it mostly means is that GW does not intend these supplements to be the same as adding new codeces to the game. If you as an opponent sit down to play against an Iyanden player, the lessons you've learned playing against other eldar players should be just as relevant, you shouldn't get blindsided by new rules or units like you were playing against some completely new faction, and Iyanden players should be able to run the same list with just the main book if they ever forget their supplement, and furthermore Iyanden players shouldn't be discouraged from buying any particular models - they can still field everything in the main book and run it all the same way that generic Eldar players do.

And if that's how they intend these supplement things to go, Black Legion probably fits that best among the chaos sub factions. What other chaos faction could you point to that would be well covered by a supplement that neither added nor subtracted any significant options from the main book?

It also means that now I'll be stuck waiting for the fourth (I believe the rumor is) HH book from FW to get some non-sucky 1k Sons rules.

Sadly, the HH book will bring you pre-heresy Thousand Sons rules. Any thousand sons list without rubric marines doesn't really cut it when it comes to representing the legion in the 41st millennium, does it? This is always my complaint whenever someone claims that the HH rules are an adequate replacement for people who want better representation for 40k factions in models or rules. 30k Heresy marines just aren't 40k Chaos marines. They're closer to loyalists than they are the modern Chaos Legions.

[Sanctimonius]

Bleugh. I mean, why bother? The 'dex itself is already a Black Legion list, why try to get people to pay for something that makes it even more so? 

Major disappoint if this turns out to be true.

[Sception]

Because it's mostly just a book of fluff? I mean, with the big new model being the wraithknight and wraithguard, with wraithguard being troops, with spirit seers already being in the book, could one not argue that the eldar book is already codex iyanden as well?

 

It's something I tried to point out in the earlier thread. The Iyanden supplement neither adds nor removes units, significant options, or army wide special rules, and doesn't even mess with where units fit in the force org (the warlord wraith knights are still heavy support), so it seemed odd that everyone was assuming that any eventual CSM supplement would do those things.

 

I agree that it's a missed opportunity to fix some issues in our book, and I think cult supplements covering both CSMs and Daemons would have been a more productive use of dead trees, but these supplements really aren't intended to fix anything, rules wise.

[Sanctimonius]

Right, so why even make these books? The Eldar book does a good job of allowing someone to make a C:I army, so why even release a book (which isn't cheap) which effectively adds nothing that can't be learned from a wiki in a few weeks time? I don't appreciate the direction GW are taking with these books, and I'll be surprised if they sell any decent amount of them. An army supplement is a real opportunity to add flavour and spirit to an army, to help people create an army that is distinct and plays in a new way. All they are doing is trying to bilk us of cash without actually doing anything for it.

[Ahrimanjjb]

The point, I would say, is the fluff, which everyone seems to be disregarding completely and moaning about how few rules there are. To be facetious the BL books have no rules at all, and yet they still get bought.

 

I would say the point of the rules in these new supplements is to tweak the lists ever so slightly so that you can represent a more fluff adherent force. I do agree however that the Black Legion feels like a weird choice as the Chaos Codex already deals with them, I would have gone for the Iron Warriors, or Word Bearers or another none cult force for their first Chaos Supplement.

 

I would also say that the cults could very easily be fixed with just a tweak here and there, the Thousand Sons for example just need a new psychic powers table and maybe the option to buy a rubricae upgrade for units and they'd be fine.

 

The main thing that annoys me about these supplements, judging from the Iyandan one anyway, is that the fluff is simply terrible, with little research done before hand or attempt to keep it in keeping with the setting, but hopefully this will change.

[Brother Ambroz]

 

What other chaos faction could you point to that would be well covered by a supplement that neither added nor subtracted any significant options from the main book?

 

 

Any of the other "undecided" legions would have been pretty simple to do this to as well.

 

Still, I'm not disappointed only suprised that we got anything at all. Also suprising that it's Black Legion they chose. This opens up a possibility, however small, but still a possibility for more chaos supplements.  Even if we don't get any more supplements at least we got one!

[daveNYC]

Yeah, no Rubrics kind of kills about 60% of the Sons' fluff.  Flip side is that there'd hopefully be rules for crazy numbers of psykers (with non-suck powers) that would buff the other 40% and kind of make up for it.  If the book just says "5++ saves for everyone!", I will be quite the sad panda.

 

The one difference between doing the Iyanden (and rumored Farsight) books is that those two factions have their own theme that's different, or at least specialized, relative to what's represented in the main book.  Part of the point of the BL is that they really are a big mix of all sorts of units, just as is represented in the main CSM codex.  Fluff-wise, doing BL makes perfect sense, but as far as adding flavor to the existing army?  Eh.

 

I think you're absolutely right on with what GW is trying to do with these books.  It's like they want to put them out there to encourage players that are so minded to get extra-fluffy with their armies, while at the same time doing everything possible to minimize the impact that the variant armies will have on the game.

[Vesper]

Needless to say, I'm really happy if it turns out to be true. Of all the legions, the Black Legion is surprisingly the one that has the least fluff around. (ABD is working on it too). I would buy that baby so hard. So damn hard.

I hope other 'factions'/aspects of Chaos end up with a supplement too, because Chaos deserves it.

For those who say that the actual codex sorta codex : Black Legion, I would say it's more codex : Warbands than anything else. Everything is centered around the lord, there is no real fluffy thing like a set of rule or something.

[daveNYC]

C:CSM is really Codex Chaosy Stuff (and some of it wearing Power Armor).

 

So Iyanden tweaked the HQ a tad with Spiritseers, added Warlord traits, some wargear, and let you choose a Wraithknight warlord, roughly?

 

I'm at a bit of a loss to think what they could do ruleswise, with a similar minimal level of tweaking, to make things more Black Legion (It's like, how much more black could this be? and the answer is none. None more black.).  Different warlord?  You've already got marines and sorcerers in various armor.  Warlord Traits?  Maybe something that lets different marks play nice with each other, but it's really the other legions that have specialized army flavor.

Gear and stuff?  I guess, but the main artifact of the Black Legion is already be carted around by Abaddon, and they're still CSM so it's tougher to come up with something that the Black Legion would have on tap that others wouldn't.

 

Ugh, I'm getting more bitter by the second, I can tell.  Which I guess is good and fluffy, but not so good for my blood pressure.

[Sception]

alternate warlord traits, perhaps related to deep striking terminator wise. A couple wargear items could be thrown in, and yeah they wouldn't be that character defining, but then again neither are the iyanden wargear items. Iyanden got a new psychic lore for their spirit seers, perhaps a black legion specific psychic lore? In the fluff it's the Black Legion sorcerers who perfected the art of daemonic possession, such that marines could invite possession without destroying their souls and later expel the daemons without killing their bodies, so maybe a psychic lore or unique power related to that? A buff power that lets possessed reroll their little table, maybe?

 

I would just mostly be happy to get a pile of more fluff, and some more pics of nice Black Legion models to help inspire me to get some painting done.

 

New models would be nice, too, of course. Particularly a new Abaddon, or some new multipart chosen. But I haven't heard any rumors of such things so it seems unlikely that we'd get anything new (maybe a one click deal to buy abaddon and three units of terminators at once, for only $30 more than it costs to buy them separately, what a bargain!). And a new Abby model would almost certainly be failcast, at which point I'd probably skip him and stick with my current conversion anyway.

 

 

EDIT: actually, running with the possession theme, the new wargear options could be used to represent daemonically possessed HQs and champions. You could really start building a unique identity for the Black Legion that way, I think.

[Vesper]

Terminators as troops, chosen terminators and stuff like that too.

Possessed are also closely related to the WB, and are part of the identity of that legion too, so I doubt it will have an emphasis on that aspect.

[Pariah Mk.231]

I'm just as puzzled as most when it comes to giving Black Legion the first supplement, not annoyed or anything, just puzzled. The main Chaos list is basically Black Legion in a nutshell, they can literally include anything and everything they want and it's still perfectly fluffy and works just fine without modification. Codex: Chaos Space Marines is as Black Legion as Codex: Space Marines is Ultramarines. By the rules, they are the norm and everyone else is deviating from them, and fair enough, Abaddon is the Warmaster and Guilleman wrote the codex. The only change I'd can really see being to mark them out is that unmarked Lords unlock Chosen as Troops, but even then it's stepping on Abaddon's toes since there's now less reason to take him over a generic Lord. It would however probably convince a few non-BL players to pick it up and counts-as for awhile, especially if they happen to really like Chosen ... like me.

 

Regardless of what they do with it, I'll probably still pick it up, I seem to have this compulsion to buy every Chaos Marine codex (including Eye of Terror) as soon as they are released. I used to buy most of the codices for each edition, but since they jacked the price up so high I can't afford it anymore. By now I normally would have grabbed Daemons for both Fantasy and 40K, plus Warriors of Chaos to keep up with my trend of always having everything Chaos, even just to read, but since I'm not playing those armies I've put it off. No more keeping up to date or fantisizing about playing other factions for me anymore, time to stay completely dedicated to Chaos Marines. I'm just glad there's nothing else on the horizen that will divert my dwindling amount of expendable money outside the Chaos target.

[Sception]

Don't expect anything to change in terms of force org slots. No terminator troops. Probably not even chosen troops without Abaddon. Again, The Iyanden book can take a wraith lord as their warlord, but it still is a heavy support choice, not an HQ. It would be nice if it happened, but the Iyanden book very specifically doesn't allow for any army builds that aren't just as possible in the main Eldar book, so it would be jumping the gun, imo, to expect anything of that nature from the Black Legion book. Likewise, expecting entire new units, like 'chosen terminators', also seems out of line with the precedent set by the Iyanden book.

Besides, the terminators in our book are already chosen. They can take special weapons on every model, they've got the extra attack, an even the extra leadership, iirc. Chosen don't have anything that terminators don't already have.

And I don't recall Possessed being as significant to Word Bearers fluff as they were to the Black Legion. The Black Legion believed Horus was possessed, scores of them invited possession in emulation of him, and the Legion was nearly wiped out by it after the Heresy in much the same way as the Thousand Sons were nearly wiped out by their own propensity for mutation. Abaddon couldn't get his soldiers to give up the practice, and the remains of his legion was only saved when his sorcerers were able to devise rituals to control the process. It's a big part of their fluff.

[Vesper]

I don't expect much. I'd be more than pleased with some fluff and some new pictures.

What you're talking about clearly is a possibility, but it's one line in the BL's current fluff. It weights little against the presence of the possessed among the Word Bearers. They got the first possessed, they even had (have) a unit of their own, a possessed elite. It is also related to their relation with the gods and the Warp.

What's funny is that there is so little in depth fluff on the Black Legion for now that it is pretty hard to guess what will be in the book.

I hope we'll get new informations on some Black Crusades, the organisation of the Legion and that mysterious dust nebula in the Eye, where they live.

[Sception]

That would be cool, yeah.

 

I honestly don't know what to expect fluff-wise.  I just don't expect much of anything at all rules or model wise.  I have reached the point of just being pretty super excited, though.  I hope this rumor doesn't pan out false, as I'd be really disappointed.

[Vesper]

I have been quite relieved at the ratio of the rumor monger. 17 right for 0 wrong makes me feel confident.

[Pariah Mk.231]

If Iyandan is anything to go by, there will probably be some scenarios in the book too, covering major battles in the legions history. I wonder what they might be. I'd wager Uralan, El'Phanor and Mackan might be included, though probably only one of them at most. Uralan would see Abaddon without Drach'nyen though, since that's when he gets it. El'Phanor doesn't really seem to be particularly important, just that Abaddon and his boys ran through some defensive fire with heavy casualties and then he but open a really think adamantine gate, so that can probably be ignored, though we could find out what was so important about attacking in the first place.

Mackan would be good for taunting Blood Angels, which is always good for a laugh.

[Sception]

Mackan would be my preference.  Blood angels helmets feature prevalently on my bases and trophy racks, on account of how nicely the red contrasts our color scheme.  I don't know any Blood Angels players, but I've mostly been playing home games of late out of shame of my unpainted and not even fully assembled army.  Once I have some more painted models to my name, I'll have to see if I can't hunt down a blood angels player to feud with at the local shop.

[Vesper]

Mackan and the other stuff would indeed be awesome. But I freaking want more. Fleshing other Black Crusades, the situation in the Eye and the dominion of Abaddon. I want to know more about Devram Korda, Falkus Kibre, Zaraphiston and other important legionnaires.

Damn, I want stuff that makes me write for my black company. That is also why I'm really happy with AD-B writing on the birth of the Black Legion, the first Black Crusade and Uralan.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Only hope that their will be new deamon Weapons that you could use...

 

When looking at Iyanden while its made to play more Wraiths then others Eldar armies, you can still play the other units.

 

So maybe if its interessting enough using the new stuffs from BL book for WE or something...

[Zhorzh]

So... uh... it's a good thing that I've designated my CSMs as Black Legionaires a couple of months ago?...

 

I can't be anything but cynical about this, I'm affraid that the supplement won't add anything relevant or special. What are they going to do, Cult units as troops without HQs with corresponding marks, a la Gav Codex?

[Sception]

Look at the iyanden book, and you'll see what they'll do.  30 odd pages of fluff, 20 odd pages of color pictures, a scattering of artwork, some cityfight & planetfall stuff, a couple scenarios, and a couple pages of very minor additional rules for 40k - maybe some warlord traits, maybe a psychic lore, maybe a couple minor wargear items.

 

Nothing more than that.  No new units.  No new unit options.  No army builds that aren't perfectly functional in the main book.  No changes to the force org, no terminator troops, nothing like that.

 

It's actually why Black Legion kind of works for a supplement.  Black Legion, despite being our faction's poster boys, are kind of bland, lacking in distinct identity.  That's something that 30 pages of fluff and 20 pages of artwork can actually give them.  The other legions mostly already have that kind of identity.  Where they're lacking anything, it's in mechanics to actually reflect some of that identity on the table.  But new mechanics are exactly what these supplements are NOT about.

[Brother Ambroz]

If it's interesting enough, I think there'll be a ton more "counts as Black Legion".....a bit ironic isn't it.

 

It doesn't have to be exactly the same as the Eldar supplement, there may be a few more changes than that. Afterall isn't the Black Legion a bit more popular than one random craftworld?