And the Supplement for CSM is....

[daboarder]

Dunno, but the bloke I was talking too just said that our artifacts may indeed be like iyanden, in that we get an expanded chart and just cannot mix on the one character. If this is tru then it could change some things. EDIT: This statement is incorrect we are indeed like farsight, these or the brand....is that a question?

----------------------------------------------------------------
S: user ap3 daemon weapon melee
+1 I
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-1 T (yep... -1 T)
Re-roll ones for invuln saves

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Psyker only-
Warp charge 1-3 each charge after the first extends range by 6"
Nova
Range 6"
S 4
Ap 5
Assault 2d6
Blind
Ignore cover

If you fail your psychic test when using two+ warp charge goodbye
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One use
Range: infinite
Strength 5
Ap 4
Heavy 1
Large blast
Ignores cover
Instead of making armor pen rolls models with armor values take d3 penetrating hits
----------------------------------------------------------------



eternal warrior and adamantium will
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand of darkness as per iPad teaser

a -T item? that can't be right? even if you do get to "re-roll 1's"

Was just thinking that the warpcharge item could be cool for an 18' nove....then I read the failed psychic test = goodbye.....

I swear everything for chaos has been written with a 5th ed mindset

[hornywingythingy]

wow, who wrote this supplement? Its like they don't want it to sell, so they don't have to bother writing more csm supplements... I agree with malisteen, quad drakes probably aren't worth it, crons or guard will make for better flier allies. I mean, that's a list of meh, few positives there tbh. Oh well, won't be buying it, which will save me pennies.

[Tenebris]

If THAT is everything that this book has than it is 40 Eur spared and a next torrent to find. Why, simple. You buy the book to use it as reference for gaming, you want fluff than there are good chances that in two months time everything will be on the internet. So no rules, means no book in my case.

 

So they expect me to do the following:

 

- Play an useless unit in the form of the Chosen, overcosted as base but even more now with the mandatory VotLW;

- Play a single super overcosted terminator squad that will have a very small chance to make the upgrade work;

- Switch the now mandatory Axe, Brand and Mace that help my entire army for something that helps only a single model in a duel;

- Use artifacts with exaggerated costs that will hardly make their points back and switch the model into top target priority;

- Use the new Warlord Traits which are pointless and skip a chance to roll D3 Infiltrate? Are they serious about that?

- Burden my entire army with the VotLW upgrade thus negating me the chance to field another much more useful thing for this points?

- Field Abaddon...period.

 

So I understand the people like Vesper who are in for the fluff, I love fluff too but I am going to find it on the net eventually. I understand people like Mali and atm I am close to them in their hidden sorrow, bitterness and distrust for anything chaos, I am like you. Elated for the possibility of some new fluff but severely disappointed for the rules provided in the supplement. You compare it to Iyanden and Farsight, read those two supplements well and see how woefully the Black Legion book falls short of them.

 

The Iyanden army allows you to field a Spiritseer council, an ex novo unit, it allows you to take a Wraithknight as your Warlord and it has a solid score of minor items and rules that benefit the Wraithwing...and those are some seriously nice, strong and reliable units that boost the overall weak toughness of the Eldar army. It is a win win situation with the Iyanden.

 

Compared to Farsight...sigh I will cut here short, in no way we can compare this pitiful book of ours to the Crisis Wing, Fusion Blades, Farsight bodyguard, new characters, Riptide Warlord and actually useful unit upgrades.

 

So if the above is everything that the books has to provide to me, a bitter chaos player betrayed by his own army that he loves, than by all means they can keep it. I will download it somewhere to read the fluff and keep fielding armies out of the main book. 

 

4 Helldrakes...now think what can a meager -1 to your Reserve rolls do. No not useful even by a long shot, and dreadfully expensive in terms of money. I see 8 Obliterators as a better setup but still, dangerously suboptimal. 

[Dorrance]

I am on hour 5 of downloading and it is just half way... apparently the universe of 40k isnt the only one operating  in the black age of technology

 

**Also I am waiting to see it for my self... not that I don't trust people (I really don't) but I am overwhelmed by the gloom and doom attitude of alot of people. I am still hopeful.**

[Zhorzh]

Well, this codex ended up being uninspiring, almost as I've imagined it would be. To be fair in my case it's not that bad:

 

- I can run my Chosen army without Abbadon. Yay for cheaper HQs and more variation in my army I guess...

- I'm interested in most of the artefacts, especially the Big Blast of Doom and Eternal Warrior Thing. Looks like the former is gonna be an auto-take for me.

- Warlord table isn't good but whatever, I've used to rolling garbage on the normal warlord table anyway.

- I can have CSM allies now, and I'm already thinking about having 2x5 Autocannon & 2x5 MLauncher Havocs, or 3 Lvl3 Sorcerers with Telepathy... or both!

 

As for everyone else, sorry. Better luck next time...

[Gumo9]

My first impressions from a quick read through the supplement... Disappointed.

 

There was a lot of potential to bring C:CSM up to the same level as the forthcoming vanilla dex (*cough* overpowered *cough*). But unfortunately the opportunity was wasted.

 

Having a good old think over a cup of tea, I'm starting to think a bit more positively now mainly because I can use standard chaos marine allies. My burning brand can still be in my Black Legion army but on an allied biker Lord.

 

G

[Excessus]

Well, there is one thing that has piqued my interest in the new supplement. The first buyable psychic power in 6th edition...

 

And what a cataclysmic power it seems to be! 18" range nova power! :D

[Sception]

Apart from the lack of deep strike mitigation and overpriced and character locked termie buff, I'm not too disappointed, actually.  As I've mentioned before, I didn't expect and didn't want the BL book to 'fix' our codex.  The only problems I really expect or want supplement books to fix is the lack of cult terminators, and this is the wrong supplement for that.

 

Anyway, while I'm not sure how 'Black Legiony' these rules really are, I'm still reasonably content with them.  A daemon sword for my dark vengeance lord?  EW for my prince?  My warpsmith can call down an orbital bombardment, annihilating vehicles & fortifications in the blast?  I'm pretty sure I'll find good uses for the other artifacts as well.  And chosen vet troops, overpriced as they are, do present some interesting build options, from 5 man lascannon squads to small, 5 to 6 man squads with 3+ special weapons to character escort squads that can fit a few specials & still get fit a lord in their rhino without having to field cult marines (plagues are admittedly better at this, but I don't always want to run nurgle).

 

And if FW ever gets off their butt and re-releases the dreadclaw, updating the rules (the current rules references FW flier rules that were invalidated in 6e, and FW drop pod rules that were invalidated in 4e, making it all but literally unusable) and making it a dedicated transport for the elite options at least, then several chosen builds may suddenly become much more interesting (along with dreadnoughts, thousand sons, and really anything else that could field them).  Of course, they could leave it as a FA choice, making it basically useless, so...

 

Even then, I still hope against hope that GW will get over themselves and just give us drop pods via white dwarf one day.  We always should have had them - making them loyalist exclusive would be like making rhinos, land raiders, terminators, or boltguns loyalist exclusve, and they'd be so easy to add via white dwarf, and wouldn't even require a new model, just the current one with a spikey bit sprue thrown in.

[Dorrance]

Best thing I have seen so far is pg 112 to 115 The Black Crusades:

 

This is I loved about 3rd era (last time I played)  White Dwarf, articles about tactics. Here we get a chance to see what the developers were thinking of when they wrote the Codex. Our batrep video in WD was very almost there (October I think vs White Scars) when they had the discussion of how to effectively field Cultists. Honestly, Ive just been paging through but I read this part to great detail and it gave me some ideas.

 

I am enjoying it thus far.

[Clewz]

Besides the fluff this doesn't look like it adds a whole lot. Think I'll just crack on with daemons

[Sception]

From what I'm hearing, there's no restrictions on special characters in the book.  Can someone with the ibook copy confirm?  If that's the case, than infiltrating troop chosen plasma spam via Huron or Ahriman may be an interesting option, and Khârn could provide some AP2-at-init melee challenge threat.

[Danny Cyanide]

Could be some good combos with existing characters if they are allowed.

 

I'm pretty much just waiting now untill the Horus Heresy series gets to the point of letting me build a real chaos legion. It'll likely be a few years, but I expect a good deal of corruption before our codex gets its next revamp!

[Lord Ragnarok]

From what I'm hearing, there's no restrictions on special characters in the book.  Can someone with the ibook copy confirm?  If that's the case, than infiltrating troop chosen plasma spam via Huron or Ahriman may be an interesting option, and Khârn could provide some AP2-at-init melee challenge threat.

I've not seen any restriction on special characters thus far. It even mentions that although characters like Ahriman are not Black Legion they are often employed by Abaddon for various reasons.

[nurglez]

So, does this mean we can finally infiltrate Abaddon?

 

Huron in main force as warlord

Aaddon as allies

 

I've checked and cant find anything stating you cant infiltrate your allies (as they are units in your army).

[minionboy]

While the special rules aren't that great, the artifacts are pretty good, and being able to ally with normal CSM is great! Finally I can have 2 drakes, spawn and bikes in a 1750 list!

[Lord Ragnarok]

I'm not seeing any restriction like that. At a high level the flow of it is... Use chaos marine list, use supple tail black legion rules/artefacts which there are few.

 

You should be able to use all the same characters but must use the BL rules and artefacts unless you ally.

[Gumo9]

No restrictions on other characters "working for" the black legion. No reason why we can't have Huron then, hurrah !

 

Also, now I've had chance to have a good read through the supplement my initial negativity is completely gone... I love it !

 

First of all, I am really enjoying reading the background (not finished all of that yet). The artifacts are instead of those in C:CSM but all is not lost because you can ally with C:CSM and therefore still have brand, black mace etc. in your army.

 

The new artifacts are really interesting and I am toying with a jet pack sorceror using using our new nova power - this might even make warp talons viable as his unit.

 

If you are into planetstrike and cities of death games, then the new strategems are great and really add to the flavour of Black Legion waging war, as do the extra "historical" battles. For example, termies deepstriking in with only 1D6 scatter, a particular battle against Blood Angels which highlights their hatred of the claw that throttled Sanguinius. I think it is all really good stuff for a lot of variety and interest in my games.

 

The only disappointing bit for me are the warlord traits which are very lacklustre indeed. In my view they should have mirrored those in the rumoured vanilla dex.

 

I actually like the chosen as troops and appreciate that VotLW fits with the fluff - I can work with that. Also, the more expensive Terminators are not compulsory, just another tactical option. I like having options.

 

Crack a smile guys, it's good !

 

G

[Sception]

to quote my own comments on warseer:

 

 

It seems like Huron will definitely be adding 'honorary black legionnaire' to his resume, next to his 'honorary alpha legionnaire' membership. If anything, he'll likely be more common in Black Legion armies than Abaddon, since infiltrating d3 plasmaspam chosen does way more for the list than slightly buffing the offensive stats of terminators, but pushing them into the 40 to 50 points apiece while costing 250 points yourself for all melee power with no good delivery options.

 

Actually, speaking of Abby and Huron and delivery methods, you can take Huron as your warlord, then ally in Abby, and infiltrate the big guy. 2/3 of the time you could even infiltrate a retinue with him. That could be potentially threatening. Between Huron being great for troop chosen and giving Abby a delivery method that boarders on reasonable, this could be the start of a beautiful relationship.

 

Why am I imagining Abaddon and Huron as Satan and Saddam from the South Park Movie? Like, Abby's the big guy who is ostensibly in charge, but Huron's the abusive boyfriend who's actually calling the shots?

 

Abaddon: How come you always want to make love to me from behind? Is it because you want to pretend I'm somebody else?

Huron: Abaddon, your ass is tiny and you have no arms. Who am I going to pretend you are, Venus de Milo?

 

or

 

Abaddon: You treat me like ****, Saddam! I'm leaving you!

Huron: What? No! No, you can't do that! I have to go to Earth!

Abaddon: You don't even have any respect for me.

Huron: Sure I do, guy, please, just hear me out... *proceeds to sing*

Abaddon: *swoons*

So... Maindex CSMs, allie Black Legion, or vice versa. Maindex runs Huron as the warlord, Abby's in ally slots with a max blob of cultists. Whichever detachment is running the regular book takes a biggish block of non-vet combiplas terminators. How you run things depends on what you roll for huron's MoD:

 

1: terminators infiltrate, abby walks with cultists as usual

2: Abby and terminators infiltrate

3: as 2, with an extra squad of plasmaspam chosen?

 

The rest of the list is some plasmaspam chosen in rhinos, a couple drakes, a couple max spawn, maybe some maulerfiends or giant spined beasts of giant spawn if the latter things move fast enough to support the rush?

[Dorrance]

Unless you plan on maxing your force org there is no need to even have allies. BL = have to take VoTL and after that we use the chaos codex with our addition rules/'artifacts

 

 

I like the Huron list, don't know about Abby in games less than 2k. That's another squad of terminators or chosen...

 

Also what about 20 man regular marines squad call it the oath breaker unit... That could be nasty with infil termies/chosen plasma

 

 

The real question left is when are chosen boxed sets coming out

[daboarder]

I wnat to find the points costs for those items, If its not too much (and given the hands cost it probably is) then the EW item combined with the vehicle destroyer might be a viable lord combo to take, particularly with the rise in waveserpents as it ignore their cover.

[daboarder]

Whelp, I WAS thinking of trying the one use vehicle destroyer, given the rise in Waveserpent spam and the fact that the artifact ignore cover, one of their major defences, but word is it costs 75pts a pop......

 

I mean what, it costs more for a one use item than the bloody model carrying it?

[hornywingythingy]

^ lol, if that's true that's ridiculous.... And again, to ask, does anyone know who the author was, so we have a target for our ire?

[daboarder]

If its not one use 75 would seem about right....and I'd probably seriously think of taking it.

[Dorrance]

Guaranteed 1 pen (unless you super scatter) could be brutal in the hands of a able player. I feel if they made it "super" heavy aka you cannot move and shoot even if your in TDA or a Bike, and not one use only that would be better. Forcing a 150ish point character to be stationary would be a better trade off then one time use. But then again I am not a game designer.... Yet. (Or ever realistically).

[Sception]

Well, 75 points does seem like a lot, but I don't necessarily think it's terrible. It stands a rather healthy chance of dropping something worth considerably more than 75 points, and earning you a victory point from first blood at the same time. I really do think this thing's going to see some use, particularly seeing as CSMs can have trouble dealing with heavy armor at long range, ime, seeing as the best tool we have for that otherwise is lascanons, and even then I rarely see CSM lists running more than four of them. Yeah, you can scatter horribly and waste the points (better put it on a BS5 model - lord or warpsmith only), but I play against grey knights and black templars enough to appreciate a tool that stands a decent shot of incapacitating a land raider while it's still a distant threat.