And the Supplement for CSM is....

[Sception]

I'm not sure if that's the case.  Anyway, I don't think there will be a bunch of 'counts as Black Legion', any more than there's a bunch of 'counts as Iyanden' going on right now (which,from what I can tell, there isn't).  If a book is 98% fluff, and doesn't allow any new builds, then why bother proxying it?  Yeah, more people will buy it if it does more, but I think GW is specifically trying to avoid turning these supplements into fully fledged new codexes that people will expect future support for.

 

I could be wrong, of course.  I'm not even sure this rumor is true, much less sure of anything that might end up in the book, but I think basing our expectations on the supplement that is already out is by far the most sensible policy.  If anyone goes into this expecting chaos drop pods and troop choice terminators, they're probably going to be disappointed.  Sure, it would be cool if it happened, but the very choice of Black Legion seems to imply that, as with the Iyanden supplement, they aren't intending to push any major changes to the parent book.

[Brother Ambroz]

True, there probably aren't a whole lot of Iyanden "counts as" but then again how old is the Eldar book again? Following that up, is the new Eldar book bland like ours? People will likely do anything they can do to spice up their armies even if it is adding just a few more options. Perhaps not so much for the cult warbands, more so for undivided.

 

Edit: Spelling.

[Vesper]

All in all, glory to the Black Legion !

 

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/6818/mnfh.jpg
 

[zyl-]

Actually.. if it did something like give all units ATSKNF (which I in no way expect to happen because after 10,000 years of hellish war, a 20-something dude with a purity seal is still WAY cooler than you) it would be well received. Specifically by people who want to run power armor chaos armies, which is what BL is in my mind. Would that be worth 50 dollars? Heck no. You could just tack it to the next FAQ and save everyone a lot of time.

[Sception]

I would be unhappy with that, frankly.  To me, ATSKNF represents selfless brainwashed indoctrination, and that doesn't fit CSMs at all.  Well, maybe Word Bearers, but not the Black Legion.  Fearless?  Stubborn?  Sure.  But ATSKNF?  I'd rather not.

 

To me, the $50 would be for a book of black legion fluff and art and pictures, a tribute to my favorite Chaos Marine subfaction.

[Bloodcrusade]

One shouldn't expect every supplement to be identical in construction, especially since the Eldar supplement is the first of its kind and testing the waters of reception.

 

Personally, I'd be more in support of a Codex: Chaos Space Marine supplement in the same nature as 'Death from the Skies' called 'More things with Spikes' that introduce Drop Pods and other essentials that aren't in the current Codex and can be used with any future C:CSM Legion/Warband/DaemonWorld Supplements.

 

Second is that I would be more for a Word Bearers supplement, allowing for more varied use of Possessed/WarpTalons/Spawn and Unmarked Lords and lots of fluff for it.

[Slayer le Boucher]

 An idea a friend of mine and i had to replace ATSKNF for CSM " Till Our last breath; Chaos Space Marines are filled with Anger and Hate too such degree, then even in their last moments they try to take their foes with them in the grave.

 

When a CSM unit loses a combat, before the Ennemy and CSM player makes the Initiative rolls to see if they disengage or are catched( don't know the exact name in english), the ennemy unit takes X S4 AP6 hits, where X is the number of models in the CSm unit, if there is a Character, add an extra D3 hits."

[Kol Saresk]

Death From the Skies was a Compendium though, not a supplement. It provided alternate rules in specific scenarios and a few other things. It did add somethings to the C: SM and C: GK, but that was in the form errata since those additions are now apart of the Codex. So personally, I would not expect us to see anything like Death From the Skies. Could always be wrong. GW has a way of defying expectations when it comes to Chaos. I would hesitate to call it good though.

 

Also, Kurgan posted pictures from White Dwarf that showed off a preview of the Farsight supplement a while back, but this is the first I've heard of a Chaos Supplement. So rationality would almost say that if Farsight is far enough along that it's getting shown off but Black Legion has to make its entrance through the rumor mill, then Farsight will be first. But that's just supposition on my part.

 

As far as what to expect, that's anyone's guess. I only have an idea on what not to expect. But GW may decide to do something other than what I expect.

 

EDIT: I can't seem to find that photo now for the life of me.

[berzerkermike84]

i hope we get one for each of the legions 

[Pariah Mk.231]

I would be unhappy with that, frankly.  To me, ATSKNF represents selfless brainwashed indoctrination, and that doesn't fit CSMs at all.  Well, maybe Word Bearers, but not the Black Legion.  Fearless?  Stubborn?  Sure.  But ATSKNF?  I'd rather not.

 

To me, the $50 would be for a book of black legion fluff and art and pictures, a tribute to my favorite Chaos Marine subfaction.

 

Hmm, I can actually see something like that being minor enough to make it into one of these supplements. BL squads gaining Stubborn, even if it's just the non-cult power-armoured marines. It's not a FOC shift, not a major change to the rules, enough to make basic unmarked Chaos marines a more valid choice next to Plague/Noise marines, and very attractive for unmarked players.

 

As for new wargear, I wouldn't mind seeing something like the Kai Gun make an appearance, even if it's just some generic daemon bolter. Probably not going to see something like that until/if they do an Iron Warriors supplement, but it's still something I'll keep my fingers crossed for.

[daveNYC]

i hope we get one for each of the legions 

 

To be honest, if the rumored BL book ends up being similar to Iyanden (98% fluff and the crunch barely changes the army) then I honestly won't care if they do one for each of the legions, since what most of the legions need is a hell of a lot more than what these flufflements bring to the table.

 

1k Sons for example, Rubrics are overpriced, Tzeentch powers suck, and a +1 on the Invuln save is boring and usually pointless on PA dudes.  That ain't going to be fixed by a new Warlord table and some wargear.  The psyker powers might get fixed, but then again, the main codex powers were specially designed for Tzeentch, so who knows how that would play out.

 

There's some legions (NL and AL) that could seriously benefit by some more specialized traits and wargear, but a majority of the legions need a lot more work than what GW seems willing to do with these supplements.

 

That said, I would totally buy the proposed More Things With Spikes supplement. 

[Excessus]

Best-pone has an impressive history of rumours so far, but I dearly hope he mistook "Legion" for "Crusade" this time. A Black Crusade supplement with legion rules and mutants/rabble/dark mechanicum would be awesome... :P

[Vesper]

Best-pone has an impressive history of rumours so far, but I dearly hope he mistook "Legion" for "Crusade" this time. A Black Crusade supplement with legion rules and mutants/rabble/dark mechanicum would be awesome...

Warmaster Abaddon doesn't like that post.

[Excessus]

Best-pone has an impressive history of rumours so far, but I dearly hope he mistook "Legion" for "Crusade" this time. A Black Crusade supplement with legion rules and mutants/rabble/dark mechanicum would be awesome...

Warmaster Abaddon doesn't like that post.

I play Alpha Legion, he's not my "Warmaster". Sure we do some work for him from time to time, but our plans are ours alone... ;)

[Pariah Mk.231]

 

i hope we get one for each of the legions 

 

To be honest, if the rumored BL book ends up being similar to Iyanden (98% fluff and the crunch barely changes the army) then I honestly won't care if they do one for each of the legions, since what most of the legions need is a hell of a lot more than what these flufflements bring to the table.

 

1k Sons for example, Rubrics are overpriced, Tzeentch powers suck, and a +1 on the Invuln save is boring and usually pointless on PA dudes.  That ain't going to be fixed by a new Warlord table and some wargear.  The psyker powers might get fixed, but then again, the main codex powers were specially designed for Tzeentch, so who knows how that would play out.

 

There's some legions (NL and AL) that could seriously benefit by some more specialized traits and wargear, but a majority of the legions need a lot more work than what GW seems willing to do with these supplements.

 

That said, I would totally buy the proposed More Things With Spikes supplement. 

 

I've always wondered how GW have thought we'd take the mark of Tzeentch on anything that doesn't already have an invulnerable save. A 6+ is actually worse than standing among some trees. For models without an existing invulnerable, it would have made much more sense to go down the heavily mutated path for Tzeentch, maybe giving them a gift of mutation roll that applies to all models in the unit. That would do a decent job representing the fickle nature of Tzeentch. One game might see everyone with 2 wounds, while the next has the same squad with S5 bolters. Tzeentch might even be in a particularly good mood one day and give them multiple boons. It would let Tzeentch players really go to town in the conversion department, with every model having a different mutation on the model that has a decent chance of actually being represented in their rules for a game.

It certainly beats nothing but Rubrics and normal marines wasting points for a mark that gives them the equivalent bonus to standing behind a bush. The only unit without an invulnerable that gets any benefit from this mark is cultists, and for them it simply isn't worth the points to give it to them. sure they always get their 6+ save, but without the mark you can just take more of them and not care if they die.

 

EDIT: It would also allow Thousand Suns players to represent their legion pre-Rubric, or a splinter group that was off planet at the time of the ritual, or marines recruited after Ahriman had been exiled.

[Hellios]

 

 

i hope we get one for each of the legions 

 

To be honest, if the rumored BL book ends up being similar to Iyanden (98% fluff and the crunch barely changes the army) then I honestly won't care if they do one for each of the legions, since what most of the legions need is a hell of a lot more than what these flufflements bring to the table.

 

1k Sons for example, Rubrics are overpriced, Tzeentch powers suck, and a +1 on the Invuln save is boring and usually pointless on PA dudes.  That ain't going to be fixed by a new Warlord table and some wargear.  The psyker powers might get fixed, but then again, the main codex powers were specially designed for Tzeentch, so who knows how that would play out.

 

There's some legions (NL and AL) that could seriously benefit by some more specialized traits and wargear, but a majority of the legions need a lot more work than what GW seems willing to do with these supplements.

 

That said, I would totally buy the proposed More Things With Spikes supplement. 

 

I've always wondered how GW have thought we'd take the mark of Tzeentch on anything that doesn't already have an invulnerable save. A 6+ is actually worse than standing among some trees. For models without an existing invulnerable, it would have made much more sense to go down the heavily mutated path for Tzeentch, maybe giving them a gift of mutation roll that applies to all models in the unit. That would do a decent job representing the fickle nature of Tzeentch. One game might see everyone with 2 wounds, while the next has the same squad with S5 bolters. Tzeentch might even be in a particularly good mood one day and give them multiple boons. It would let Tzeentch players really go to town in the conversion department, with every model having a different mutation on the model that has a decent chance of actually being represented in their rules for a game.

It certainly beats nothing but Rubrics and normal marines wasting points for a mark that gives them the equivalent bonus to standing behind a bush. The only unit without an invulnerable that gets any benefit from this mark is cultists, and for them it simply isn't worth the points to give it to them. sure they always get their 6+ save, but without the mark you can just take more of them and not care if they die.

 

EDIT: It would also allow Thousand Suns players to represent their legion pre-Rubric, or a splinter group that was off planet at the time of the ritual, or marines recruited after Ahriman had been exiled.

 

I know the rules would say that Spawndom and DPdom wouldn't be allowed... but damn I would start taking cultists so hard in my Tzeentch list if I thought there was a chance they could turn into spawn... Just for that one time it happens... and I need to bring 50 spawn out of my case XD

[Pariah Mk.231]

Or they'd just commit mass suicide if you didn't have enough spawn models.

[Vesper]

Best-pone has an impressive history of rumours so far, but I dearly hope he mistook "Legion" for "Crusade" this time. A Black Crusade supplement with legion rules and mutants/rabble/dark mechanicum would be awesome...

Warmaster Abaddon doesn't like that post.

I play Alpha Legion, he's not my "Warmaster". Sure we do some work for him from time to time, but our plans are ours alone...

Watch your mouth, son of Alpharius.

[Sception]

Excessus, on 12 Jul 2013 - 05:29, said:

Best-pone has an impressive history of rumours so far, but I dearly hope he mistook "Legion" for "Crusade" this time. A Black Crusade supplement with legion rules and mutants/rabble/dark mechanicum would be awesome...

I won't at all disagree that it would be awesome. It would be hella awesome. And far more interesting, in terms of the possibilities that it would bring to the game, than what I expect.

However, it would also be completely out of scope with the supplement line as exemplified by the Iyanden book - which is a fluff book that only barely, minimally, sort of almost kind of marginally affects the eldar rules in a way that if your opponent isn't paying super close attention they might not even be able to tell the difference, and specifically does not add or subtract any units or unit options, nor does it even move them around the force org chart. It would also run directly counter to the current super strict 'no rules for anything that doesn't already have a model ready to go' policy.

I'm not saying don't hope for something more substantive than that in terms of crunch, I'm just saying don't expect it. Even an army-wide special rule like stubborn would be out of scale with the supplement we've seen so far.

[Vesper]

I'm so damn frustrated, release it already, gdi !

[Tenebris]

One thing is certain, they ought to give us something proper. Our codex was half done, rushed and we suffer it now. Damn even armies like the IG, Orks and BT seem to have a better time than CSM without Helldrakes. I can hardly swallow the new news about the loyalists but if they half do the Black Legion than... I don't know what to do. 

 

Another thing is certain, they have to provide us with alternative ways to play CSM, possibly avoiding the Helldrake altogether.

[Brother Ambroz]

That whole loyalist oblit crap is complete if true I'll probably take a hiatus from 40k.

I don't think a supplement alone will fix what we need. The Black Legion might be ok but the rest of us...

[Vesper]

Oh it's been a while since I've left any hope to have CSM balanced with the rest of the game.

I just want the fluff, the artworks and other stuff like that.

[Brother Ambroz]

I wasn't talking balanced competitively, just to represent us better. Our current codex does neither.

[Trevak Dal]

Because it's mostly just a book of fluff? I mean, with the big new model being the wraithknight and wraithguard, with wraithguard being troops, with spirit seers already being in the book, could one not argue that the eldar book is already codex iyanden as well?

 

It's something I tried to point out in the earlier thread. The Iyanden supplement neither adds nor removes units, significant options, or army wide special rules, and doesn't even mess with where units fit in the force org (the warlord wraith knights are still heavy support), so it seemed odd that everyone was assuming that any eventual CSM supplement would do those things.

 

I agree that it's a missed opportunity to fix some issues in our book, and I think cult supplements covering both CSMs and Daemons would have been a more productive use of dead trees, but these supplements really aren't intended to fix anything, rules wise.

 

The Enclave book is AWESOME in regards to it's fluff.  Many tau (Enclave players most notably) disagree, but I liked it.