And the Supplement for CSM is....

[Excessus]

Gw should skip the foreplay and elevate ADB to a full fledged codex writer

At least for the fluff. ADB have to my knowledge no experience in gamedevelopment or rules-writing. It would be a risky codex if ADB wrote the rules for it. Sure, let him loose on the fluff, but rules...leave that to Andy Chambers or someone... :P

[Brother Aiwass]

Gw should skip the foreplay and elevate ADB to a full fledged codex writer

Yeah, foreplay is for girls (pun intended :lol:) With the resy I agree +1000%

Gw should skip the foreplay and elevate ADB to a full fledged codex writer

At least for the fluff. ADB have to my knowledge no experience in gamedevelopment or rules-writing. It would be a risky codex if ADB wrote the rules for it. Sure, let him loose on the fluff, but rules...leave that to Andy Chambers or someone...

Let Ward write the rules and A D-B the fluff and we are allright (please Khorne, kill before I say more positive coments about Ward).

[hornywingythingy]

^ward writes codeci with multiple viable builds, that mostly don't require a plethora of errata and faq upon release, given gw haven't faqed since april, this is a good thing.

[Tenebris]

I hope for more daemonic weapons, hopefully a nasty bolter with AP 3 or something like that, would be fun having 1+d6 shots with one of those. Also why not include cheap daemonic weapons like a chainsword with AP - but with the daemonic rule for say 15 points. I would take it on my melee squads, such a weapon is good for duels (more rolls means more wounds) and greater still when the duel is over and the weapon is used on the squad. 

 

Since we have no rules that benefit us in the challenge than why not at least provide us with the technical means to achieve some sort of superiority, even a single reroll weapon that is not a lightning claw would be very very useful. Make the chainaxe a 10 points weapons but give it Rending, now that would be fun.

 

Also in the case of the Black Legion I would have given a special rule to the Possessed, I would simply add Deep Strike to their profile and that is that. You have a cheap, viable and potentially deadly escort unit for all those lords out there, an unit actually worth its points. 

 

Next the focus of the Black Legion is on its vast host of marines, especially tactical squads so why not give them a discount on icons or VoTLW gratis? Achieving with that the actual purpose of this army, to be a counter to the Space Marines, since nowadays GW wants to have armies that counter each other. 

[Sedekiel]

Havocs becoming and/or troops ... 5 man 4 melta in Rhino Dozer,Havoc Launcher = 42 cultists...

Simple and effective fix.

[Zeroed]

I hope for more daemonic weapons, hopefully a nasty bolter with AP 3 or something like that, would be fun having 1+d6 shots with one of those. Also why not include cheap daemonic weapons like a chainsword with AP - but with the daemonic rule for say 15 points. I would take it on my melee squads, such a weapon is good for duels (more rolls means more wounds) and greater still when the duel is over and the weapon is used on the squad.

Since we have no rules that benefit us in the challenge than why not at least provide us with the technical means to achieve some sort of superiority, even a single reroll weapon that is not a lightning claw would be very very useful. Make the chainaxe a 10 points weapons but give it Rending, now that would be fun.

So.. you mean restoring some of the gear and rules we already had in the past?

But I agree.. and hey, since I saw a picture of those new power-armoured marines wearing extra power armour (and something that looks like oven mittens) today, I'm actually much more cheery for our next supplement than before, because they look extremely awful and I can't wait battling those, ripping layers of ceramite apart with our own newest toys, whichever form they might take.. ^^

[Tenebris]

There is also my curiosity about the color scheme variants for the Black Legion. Some are known and are standard but I really hope for more BL warband fluff. 

[Gree]

 

 

I'm so bored thanks to my post surgery state (wisdom tooth should be renamed "kick-in-the-balls tooth"). So I sail the seven seas of the Internet.

AD-B posted this on Heresy-Online a long time ago, I thought it would be cool to share it in that perticular thread.

 

"My Legion bears no number – it was not founded by the Emperor and it never fought at his side. We were born in the centuries after those days of defeat. Numbers were only bestowed upon the Legions of the Great Crusade. We are the Legion of the Long War."

 

And yet the rulebook still subtitles them as the "Black XVI".

 

I would rather hope A D-B means more than that, because that really does not sound like the Black Legion I want to play. I am this close to repainting my Black Legion into Iron Warriors.

[Tenebris]

One must agree that the Black Legion was created ex novo, it is a force that was born after the events of the HH. I doubt though that ADB will discredit so easily the already established lore and 200+ years of pre Heresy history just to sound cool. Still worst things have happened and with the current orientation of the GW fluff we can expect literally everything. 

[Vesper]

 

 

 

I'm so bored thanks to my post surgery state (wisdom tooth should be renamed "kick-in-the-balls tooth"). So I sail the seven seas of the Internet.

AD-B posted this on Heresy-Online a long time ago, I thought it would be cool to share it in that perticular thread.

 

"My Legion bears no number – it was not founded by the Emperor and it never fought at his side. We were born in the centuries after those days of defeat. Numbers were only bestowed upon the Legions of the Great Crusade. We are the Legion of the Long War."

 

And yet the rulebook still subtitles them as the "Black XVI".

 

I would rather hope A D-B means more than that, because that really does not sound like the Black Legion I want to play. I am this close to repainting my Black Legion into Iron Warriors.

 

I've read your replies on that subject, on Heresy Online (IIRC).

I can relate to you, even if I really think the Black Legion has really few in common with the Sons of Horus, being in fact and anti-SoH in that they don't rely on a cult of personality at their core, but have a greater goal, and a burning hatred that can't be killed off like Horus was.

Former Sons of Horus, Chtonia, the Heresy and the shame of defeat, all that survives within the Black Legion, it is part of his history and of its soul (SoH being the "core" of the Black Legion). But it is clearly not what matters the most in the Legion as it's not the focus anymore. The whole plan was to create anew, without Horus, without the defeat, without the limits of gene-seed and Primarch legacy.

The Black Legion can be viewed as the Black XVI, because, to a certain extent, they are. But they became more than the Sons of Horus, more than a Legion.

I hope you'll be happy with what we'll get, I'll most likely be as I'm pleased by the few things AD-B threw around. But I don't think your view of the Legion is that far from what I've described. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me and tell us what is your vision of the Legion.

[Gree]

I've read your replies on that subject, on Heresy Online (IIRC).

I can relate to you, even if I really think the Black Legion has really few in common with the Sons of Horus, being in fact and anti-SoH in that they don't rely on a cult of personality at their core, but have a greater goal, and a burning hatred that can't be killed off like Horus was.

Former Sons of Horus, Chtonia, the Heresy and the shame of defeat, all that survives within the Black Legion, it is part of his history and of its soul (SoH being the "core" of the Black Legion). But it is clearly not what matters the most in the Legion as it's not the focus anymore. The whole plan was to create anew, without Horus, without the defeat, without the limits of gene-seed and Primarch legacy.

The Black Legion can be viewed as the Black XVI, because, to a certain extent, they are. But they became more than the Sons of Horus, more than a Legion.

I hope you'll be happy with what we'll get, I'll most likely be as I'm pleased by the few things AD-B threw around. But I don't think your view of the Legion is that far from what I've described. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me and tell us what is your vision of the Legion.

 

Originally I wanted to play the Legion of Horus. The XVI Legion. Beings who still revered their Primarch. Much of this was inspired by Anthony Reynolds Word Bearer series and his terminology and style used within. For me the Black Legion was just the Sons of Horus, but in black paint.

 

Another part of my desire to play Black Legion was their ability to field all units with them all being Black Legionaries. I liked the idea of fielding Khorne Berzerkers marching alongside Noise Marines and Nurgle Bikers under the stern command of an Undivided Chaos Lord

 

I mean, I certainly knew about the fluff of other Marines joining the Black Legion, yet at the same time I was very much under the impression it was still the XVI Legio and Horus's legion. Yet at the same time I see I was wrong about my initial impressions of the Legion.

 

I don't want to play a bunch of mongrels who aren't a ''real'' Legion. I want to play a Astartes Legion with all it's storied history and prestige. I want to play one of the twenty Astartes Legions that the Emperor established at the start of the Great Crusade. The Black Legion is not one of those Legions. They are not the venerable XVI that I so liked. They cannot claim that same honor that Marines of other Legions have. Thus I have little interest in them.

 

Now, maybe A D-B's novel may change things along with the Black Legion supplement, but I'm not too optimistic as from what I'm hearing those not sound like what I had envisioned the Black Legion to be. I normally like A D-B

 

The biggest problem I have now, is re-hauling all 7000 points of Chaos that I have, which means large amounts of repainting and removal of Black Legion symbols everywhere. The biggest element of that is now choosing a new ''keystone'' warband.

 

I like to use various cult units in the same army, Plague Marines and Berzerkers especially. With my Black Legion that wasn't a problem, but now I need a ''keystone'' Undivided warband to center things around. I've more or less narrowed it down to the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors or Night Lords. I did consider going pure Nurgle for a while, but I decided ultimately I liked access to all Marks of Chaos for an army.

[Prot]

Hey I'm painting my Iron Warriors as Black Legion, so who wants to trade? j/k

 

Seriously one thing really that I'm really hoping is there is something that -empowers- the codex to a degree on the same level as let's say the Heldrake.

 

The reason I say this is because we rely so heavily on it to be competitive on a tournament level. So here comes the Space Marine codex and its big fancy anti-flyer tanks (rumoured only thus far) and there ends the reign of the Baledrake as our goto unit in (potentially) one magic bullet unit.

 

I know that's a worst case scenario but seriously, I really hope this supplement gives us something on that level... Or else no one will even want to ally with us anymore. And that would be sad.

[Brother Ambroz]

I think the drake will be alright. It may be in more danger than before, but it's still arguably the toughest flyer to take down with its daemon save, it will not die and 12 AV.

Also, the AA tank is nearly fact by now, there are pictures up of it now.

[Vesper]

 

 

Another part of my desire to play Black Legion was their ability to

field all units with them all being Black Legionaries. I liked the idea

of fielding Khorne Berzerkers marching alongside Noise Marines and

Nurgle Bikers under the stern command of an Undivided Chaos Lord

 

 

I would say that is one of the defining traits of the Black Legion, focusing on a goal, far from petty rivalries and such. And it's very cool, indeed.

 

 

I mean, I certainly knew about the fluff of other Marines joining the

Black Legion, yet at the same time I was very much under the impression

it was still the XVI Legio and Horus's legion. Yet at the same time I

see I was wrong about my initial impressions of the Legion

 

I would say it's all about purpose. The Sons of Horus always wanted to serve Horus, to make him proud. With Horus dead, they cease to be, as they don't have any purpose left. They are dead because Horus was the heart of the Sons of Horus Legion. The Blood Angels were fighting for the emperor and the imperium, the Night Lords were fighting to spread fear. Those Legions still do all that jazz, even after the death of their Primarch, because they weren't relying on him as heavily as the Sons of Horus. The Sons of the Warmaster, the first among the Primarchs, their very own little god.

 

They never really faced defeat before Terra. They were the ultimate Space Marines Legion, the ultimate heroes of the Crusade. They were the best among the other SM Legions, and they knew it.

Yet, that one day, all that ceased to be. That might be even more brutal than the Blood Angels becoming insane at the death of Sanguinius, because for the Sons, their whole world was shattered. Their identity, all they were, was destroyed. And they fled, because it was no longer their battle, they weren't soldiers anymore, they were sons in mourning.

That is the source of their shame, this only defeat. And it made them hated by the entire world. That shame made them want to fight everyone in the Eye (and pretty much everyone was fine with killing SoH), just to prove themselves, just to make everyone forget their moment of weakness on Terra. But yet again, they were stuck with Horus' body. They kept worshipping him as they were losing battles and fighting desperate wars. Even now, they were under Horus' leadership, and it kept bringing them down.

Horus' legacy was a crippling burden, colored by the shame of defeat. To save his Legion, his brothers, and the chance to take revenge on the Imperium, Abaddon had to kill the Sons of Horus (by destroying his body) to allow them to be reborn stronger, with a new purpose, new ideals, and a chance to survive in the Eye and in the Galaxy.

Horus would've killed them. They had to cut the rope that set them free.

The honours they got during the Crusade mean nothing, because their allegiance isn't the same anymore. They just prove they were the best. They're far from those things now, they don't want to be the best anymore, they want to gut the Imperium like a dog. And hell, they will.

[Excessus]

None of the achievments the traitor legions did during the crusade holds any meaning now, except to themselves. Heresy veterans would most likely still be proud of moments or campaigns that they participated in. That wouldn't change even if their Primarch died or turned into a daemon. Pride is one of the reasons that they fell, after all...

[Zeroed]

I'd like to weigh in on the subject, if I may be so bold and 'intervene'..

 

I think we can agree that the Black Legion is for quite some intents and purposes different to the Legion from which ashes it arose - be it the fact that they allowed their brethren with differing genetic heritage to 'take the black' as well, quotes and actions from its undisputed leader, or other random fluff floating around that implies or outright claims as such.

 

However, their core, as well their 'rebirth' and their leader (him being his father's favourite son and all), all stem from the XVIth, and their position amongst the traitors during the heresy and ten thousand years later, their undisputable drive, all remain the same. 

 

And still - even at times when they stood as one Legion, everyone sharing the very same genetic heritage, all united by their unwavering loyalty towards their gene-sire, nay, their 'father', they were still, at least to a degree as this is with Astartes, individuals with different minds, different moods and apparently even different morals..

(and, to insert at this point, I personally believe the most credit for anything related to this stuff should go to Dan Abnett. All Hail Dan!)

 

I know the point above is slightly disputable, but let's fast forward ten millenia. Most legions have broken apart, into bigger and smaller warbands, all with distinct styles, but - so I believe - varying views upon matters. The best example might be the cult troops.. many Berzerkers stem from the World Eaters legion (one that we probably won't hear much debate when stating they are broken apart), but also from other legions. Not every World Eater became a Khorne Berzerker, and not every Berzerker was a World Eater. And the 'undivided' legions didn't fare that much better.. Night Lords have become pirates, hunters, killers, fulfilling their desires.. the Alpha Legion is still fighting the war, but as it always was the case, behind enemy lines.. the Iron Warriors are still at large, as are the Word Bearers.. but both have their own agendas as well (which is not hindering them from being a great threat to the Imperium and basically everyone else as well)

 

..however, the biggest, meanest, most dangerous attacks the traitor legions have produced, that shook the Imperium's foundations were organized and executed by the Black Legion.

 

So that begs the question, and it's one that I have asked myself for a while now: what is it that we want, we desire from the Black Legion? 

 

I loved Horus. I loved the character, I loved his depictions so far in the books (most of them, at least), I thought his end was fitting (and oh, killing sweet Sanguinius in the process..), and the whole cloning-story as a way of creating the Blacks was always alright as well.. and yes, I want to field and lead his offsprings into battle, because they will be the armoured fist that finally reaches out to Terra and crushes the Corpse-Emperor's remains.

 

If it turns out that the Legion is supposed to be anti-Horus, I would be sad, because I don't think that this is what they really are.. I'd like to think of Abaddon as someone who understands a symbol and knows how to use it. We had the debate before the database-problem struck again about random fluffs about him killing everything and everyone at will or upon failure.. something that does not sit well with me at all.. 

and still, if the above would be the case, I'd stick around. Maybe not as close to whereever he's sitting right now.. maybe not as someone who tries to climb ranks as fast as possible, and maybe not as someone who views Daemonhood as the ultimate prize, and maybe not even as someone that hates or denies his genetic heritage..

 

..but maybe as someone who still, after ten thousand years, revers his dead father, someone who still believes in the great war they unleashed, someone who has seen everything, including his most beloved father, taken away from him, leaving only bitterness and hatred, yes someone who still values the fighting prowess of an Astartes (a true one, mind you, not the watered-down religious fanatics that call themselves Astartes) over the fickle (and probably wrong or double-edged) promise of power a daemon offers..

 

..someone who's only remaining goal, the only one worth fighting for, is to destroy the rotten heart of the Imperium of Mankind to finish what was started millenia ago. 

 

And if that takes - for me - bending things a little, so be it. If things go down and the Black Legion now officially hates Horus (for real) and everything he did, I'll work around it. Like the lodges during the heresy era were groups of different-minded warriors, let's play Black Legionnaires that still perceive the legion as the Sons of Horus' heirs. Let the others think what they want.. WE know what really happened.. and we know where we came from.. and we know how to finish this.

[Gree]

They never really faced defeat before Terra. They were the ultimate Space Marines Legion, the ultimate heroes of the Crusade. They were the best among the other SM Legions, and they knew it.

Yet, that one day, all that ceased to be. That might be even more brutal than the Blood Angels becoming insane at the death of Sanguinius, because for the Sons, their whole world was shattered. Their identity, all they were, was destroyed. And they fled, because it was no longer their battle, they weren't soldiers anymore, they were sons in mourning.

That is the source of their shame, this only defeat. And it made them hated by the entire world. That shame made them want to fight everyone in the Eye (and pretty much everyone was fine with killing SoH), just to prove themselves, just to make everyone forget their moment of weakness on Terra. But yet again, they were stuck with Horus' body. They kept worshipping him as they were losing battles and fighting desperate wars. Even now, they were under Horus' leadership, and it kept bringing them down.

Horus' legacy was a crippling burden, colored by the shame of defeat. To save his Legion, his brothers, and the chance to take revenge on the Imperium, Abaddon had to kill the Sons of Horus (by destroying his body) to allow them to be reborn stronger, with a new purpose, new ideals, and a chance to survive in the Eye and in the Galaxy.

Horus would've killed them. They had to cut the rope that set them free.

The honours they got during the Crusade mean nothing, because their allegiance isn't the same anymore. They just prove they were the best. They're far from those things now, they don't want to be the best anymore, they want to gut the Imperium like a dog. And hell, they will.

 

That more or less summarizes why I don't want to play them anymore and why I don't like them. That's not the Legion I was first attracted to nor is that the Legion that inspired me to write fanfiction for my warband or inspired me to collect almost 7000 points of Chaos Marines.

 

The Black Legion, as fully revealed to me, was exactly the sort of army I was trying to avoid when I was getting into Chaos. I can't find anything to be proud of with them. It's the exact sort of army I hold contempt for. The fact that they  are associated with the whole ''Failbaddon'' meme only makes it even worse.

 

I apologize if I sound like I'm rehashing this thing over and over again, but I think it's time I stop deluding myself and switch to the type of army I really want to play.

 

 

[Vesper]

 

I apologize if I sound like I'm rehashing this thing over and over

again, but I think it's time I stop deluding myself and switch to the

type of army I really want to play.

No biggie, buddy. You do what you want.

 

"Failbaddon" stupidity aside, why are you trying to avoid this kind of legion ?

[Excessus]

That's just a stupid meme anyway, created and spread by people that doesn't understand better...

[Gree]

 

 

I apologize if I sound like I'm rehashing this thing over and over

again, but I think it's time I stop deluding myself and switch to the

type of army I really want to play.

No biggie, buddy. You do what you want.

 

"Failbaddon" stupidity aside, why are you trying to avoid this kind of legion ?

 

I thought I already explained myself.

 

I wanted to play a Astartes Legion, one with storied history and pride in their identity as a Legion. The Word Bearers in Reynold's novels still refer to themselves as the XVII for example, the Night Lords the VIII, etc, etc. It carries a special meaning of pride and history that dates back to the founding of the legions at Terra.

 

The Black Legion cannot claim that. They are more than just a collection of SoH marines and renegades. They are Anti-Horus. They reject their past. They are not the XVI. No, sir, that is not the army I am interested in or want to play. One of the other Traitor Legions certainly, but not Abaddon's Black Legion. They are little better than the Red Corsairs in my eyes.

[Vesper]

Fair enough.

Abaddon would probably say that you live in meaningless past glories and that you'll fail to achieve anything with another Legion.

[Rayray]

So bitter, but there is always room in the ranks of the word bearers. Either way, has there been any new word on the supplement? With probably around 10k of chaos, I would enjoy a BL warband along with new tricks

[Sanctimonius]

Can I ask are the Black Legion supposed to be monolithic? Is there a standard backstory saying the whole legion follows Abaddon in his crusades? Or could you have a small band which follows the original ideals of the Sons of Cthonia, who still recognise Horus as their progenitor and leader, who identify more with the Luna Wolves than the cult of Abaddon?

 

There's nothing stopping you from creating the warband you want. A key theme of the novels which have come out about the Chaos legions have done a great job of emphasising just how fragmented and varied the Chaos legions have become. The way I see it, there are those bands who have happily cast off the shackles of their legion brotherhoods, striking out on their own or in the name of their gods. Likewise, there are those who hold to the old ways, who might see themselves as 'pure', certainly more pure than the debased chapters of the Imperium. Take the Night Lords, to use an example you gave. Sure, they refer to themselves as the VIII, but in ADB's novels very few of them seem to care what that really means anymore. Talos was seen as something of a relic, old-fashioned, and even his own Claw thought he was strange (prophetic seizures aside). In contrast, Kreig Acerbus didn't seem to care about the Night Lords at all, obsessed with his own ascension as he was.

[daveNYC]

The Black Legion is a lot more goal oriented than other legions.  Plus I'm pretty sure that Abaddon has a firm grasp on the idea of brand identity, so having a bunch of dudes running around dressed up like Black Legion who don't recognize him as the head cheese would probably lead to the offending parties being flensed.  Or maybe flayed.

 

And by the time the Heresy rolled around, the Sons of Horus had totally ditched the Luna Wolves identity.  Some SoH loyalists went back to that identity, but for any traitor who survived into 40k, the Luna Wolves concept probably isn't even on the radar.

 

The Failbaddon meme wouldn't have as much life as it does if the CSM weren't all still stuck in the Eye trying to break out through Cadia.  Sure the previous crusades were all part of a long term plan, but you have to admit that being stuck in the exact same spot after 12 major campaigns an 10,000 years doesn't make for good press.

[Sception]

The whole Black Legion follows Abaddon.  There may be some leftover Sons of Horus that still think of themselves as such who haven't signed on with the Black, but the Black legion is Abaddon's legion.  Painting your armor black is, among other things, a sign of your new loyalty to him.