And the Supplement for CSM is....

[Marshal Rohr]

If you will forgive a moments intrusion, I had posted a few years ago about the Black Legions make up and organization. A DB had responded that the cohesive legion idea wasn't really the intended goal for chaos space marines portrayal. What I took from his response was that the 3.5 codex and IA articles had been a step backwards in there portrayal and has set the same paradigm for chaos that the IA articles set for loyalist first foundings. Basically, older players who cling to those as the 'right' portrayals of their legions would have a hard time understanding what the IP had been trying to make chaos into all along.

 

 

Which is why I invented M2C-verse. Which has cohesive legions, terrifying orks, and elder intent on reclaiming their empire. It's also why I stopped posting fluff, because its nothing like the shared 40k universe.

[Tenebris]

Well a week or two and than we will see what they did with the fluff. So far they are black chaos space marines with gold and silver trim, their boss is called Abaddon and they were the best of the best in the Great Crusade era. Their papa favored tactical squads with additional close combat weapons named Despoiler Squads, they also like to walk around clad in terminator armor and their strategy is on a very basic level a simple wolf pack tactic when the pack tears down the weakest members of their prey and than the alpha wolves go for the throat. Oh and they enjoy using the Speartip which is a calculated assault on the enemy command structure...oh and yes, their papa was once a Warmaster but was killed by his daddy for being naughty...

 

Now it all seems pretty generic but the truth is that the Black Legion has some fluff but not some remarkable fluff, most certainly not as remarkable as those of the more "hype" Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Night Lords. So I would not worry that much about fluff since we are mostly looking at a retcon of some sort, be it with BL books or already with the Supplement, though I would say that the extra book is a bit too early on the schedule.

 

I mostly worry that the book will be rushed like the Chaos codex, because it is clear to GW that CSM players are unhappy, even the most lowly PR representative gets that so this supplements, I worry, is merely a patch not an actual upgrade. If it works and cools the Chaos contingent than it is good, if it does not work...well they have to invent something else for a fanbase is still a fanbase. 

 

In this current situation, with the Istvaan V book coming out for FW the society cannot allow mistakes to happen, you know all those miniature ranges have to sell, and speaking of Chaos it has to sell good otherwise some shareholders might rise some eyebrows on why the range Tau, Eldar, SM, and things like that is in profit while the chaos range is sliding down. We still speak of tons of prime materials, artists and all those things that have to pay and to have a production line locked on something that is not selling is a big no no at this times.

 

I admit, I am a cynic, but basic marketing logic never, never failed me and companies like GW seem economic giants but in the end, one report is enough to alarm shareholders and managers to force a major investment to bring the products in line with the others on the market or it will rise voices to discontinue stuff. We can rant about fluff, miniatures and all but in the end it is business and a shareholding company demands answers on tons of stuff before they distribute the revenue. 

 

So while I do not expect much about this Supplements I expect GW to show some more effort for Chaos for it is a whole production line that sells bad. CSM is everywhere on sale and we all know that 40k players are a fickle bunch who despite how much they profess their love for single armies and fluff, they always, ever follow the ebb. And GW has to make the ebb flow if they want to sale. 

 

You know why Sisters have not been done...it is all about the profit that a production line has to make in order to make it a reasonable project for the Company. If the PR would judge such an army a money maker than expect the Sisters, if not expect them to be rolled into a bigger book and with mail order only stuff.

 

Chaos Space Marines have covered the investment in the first months of the release but I sincerely doubt, merely by looking at this forum or many more where people share their insights, that the CSM are a profitable army for GW and that thing alone gives me hope for as I have said the shareholders demand answers on even the pettiest things, we speak of money afterall. Each of us is tedious when there is money to make. 

[hornywingythingy]

The chaos dex, and the da dex, were experiments in curbing the era of op 5th ed dexes, they failed, weren't popular, and didn't sell overly well, listen to some of the 40kuk podcasts on csm when the dex was released, they playtested with the specific aim of nerfing dexes, and even he admitted they went too far on some units (warp talons were supposed to have a 12" blind bubble) the power jump on tau and eldar is cos they realised codes creep sells models, stupid as it sounds, we are likely stuck with one build for serious competitive play, Gil the codex is redone in 3-4 years. Don't expect miracles of the supplements, they won't reboot the dex with two pages of rules, we will likely see a new, better warlord chart, some better artefacts, and perhaps terminator as troops, but only with abaddon.

 

Also, we aren't the big sellers anymore (hence the guinea pigs), apparently tau now equal marine sales, which is pretty major...

[Sception]

Even a 12" blind bubble would be pretty bad.  Yeah, they might actually catch a couple units and maybe blind one, with slightly less chance of mishap, but that's still dropping an expensive squad of precious fast attack in the open.  Not worth bothering with.  And Dark Angels?  Even there, with the lower power level, and lack of any heldrake-like crutch, their book still feels more coherent than ours.  Like some thought was put into their builds - Deathwing, Ravenwing, Greenwing, Mixed - and how they were supposed to play and interact.  What rules the units needed to do their jobs on the table.  What rules and options they might need to feel both customizable and representative of their fluff.  I would have been happier with a Dark Angelsish book, less powerful but more coherent.

 

As for codex creep, Tau and Eldar aren't significantly better than necrons or grey knights or Guard or Wolves.  It's not a matter of codex creep, it's a matter of recognizing where the bar already was.  If you want to reign things in, you have to start with the offenders, not with the people they're already stomping on.

 

 

And even if we accepted reigning things in as a good idea, that still doesn't explain all the internal problems.  Half baked ideas.  Problems unfixed.  Units without the necessary tools to do their jobs in 6e.  Special rules that don't work.  Nonsensical points values.  The stupidly broken heldrake.

 

If we accept the premise then they were starting with a ridiculously bad idea to begin with, but either way their execution was terrible.

 

 

I pretend to begrudge the loyalist space marine players all their new toys, but that's mostly just playing in character.  Sure I'm jealous, but I don't wish their book was 'like ours',  A half baked space marine book with poor internal balance wouldn't magically lessen the failings of our own book.

 

I'm just really frustrated to see a complete replay of history, with a string of fun books full of options that players like, but somehow the designers don't, so then they 'reign in' the next couple books - Chaos and Dark Angels - only to realize players don't like that and don't buy it, so then it's right back to cool interesting books, until they decide that things have gotten 'out of hand' somehow, so it's back to wonky restrictive philosophies just in time for Chaos and Dark Angels again.  Again, as though 'reigning in' books that were already weaker and more restrictive would somehow fix other books.

[Prot]

Since it looks like Space Marines are getting 'Obliterators' maybe we'll get Thunderfire Cannons? Yea right.

 

I always find it funny how no matter what Chaos chapter/legion you play with, and a great example of this would be Red Corsairs, that no one brings any of their stuff over. Not only that but even the ancient STC's never seem to produce anything of significance from the Heresy era.

 

It looks like we are doomed to finding discarded washing machines, mounting spider legs on them, and 'binding a daemon' to them; set them on 'spin cycle' and set them lose against the loyalists.  And if it appears to be an actually decent unit, the Imperium will reverse engineer it, and make it better, without a daemon entity, thus removing any random element we may have to still deal with.

 

I know we won't see any new units, but I'm kind of surprised there's all these leaks from the marine codex and we've heard/seen nothing from the Black Legion. Weird.

[minigun762]

I know there is s fair amount of disappoint with our codex but let's circle back to the original point of this topic.

My gut is telling me that this is the perfect time to introduce terminators as troops. I hope they do, because giving Chaos more legitimate builds is a big plus.

[daveNYC]

I have this insane vision that the reason there's no leaks for the supplement is because there's nothing to leak for the supplement.  It's 100% fluff, and GW is going to try and charge $50 for it.

[Sception]

I just don't think its happening.  Sure it might, and it would be cool, but...  The farsight book gave up a lot of options - wargear, ethereals, etc - to make room for their crisis suit troops.  What would you drop from a 'black legion' army to make room for troop terminators?  There doesn't seem to be any units that don't belong.

 

If we get something more out of the Black Legion supplement than some new black legion fluff, then that's great, but I really don't think we should be pinning any such hopes on our fist supplement.  Maybe some of the more focused books, like the cult legions, might be able to make room for some more significant additions, but eliminating options that don't fit them.  But I just don't think that's the kind of thing we're going to see out of the black legion.

 

Again, I could be wrong, but I think those who are expecting big things are setting themselves up for an entirely unnecessary disappointment.

 

 

EDIT: there's no leaks because it's a digital release only at this point, and the chain of possession is too short for that.  There weren't any leaks for the farsight book, either, just wishlisting.  I expect something like the Iyanden book - a book of fluff and a couple minor rules cookies for people who play that sub faction, but nothing that anyone else should feel compelled to care about.

[Tenebris]

But the problem is that Eldar and Tau really needed no supplement, they are great books out of the box. It is we who need some tools to keep floating. Even the most new player of Chaos knows that once a solid AA unit is out there...we get busted. We will even loose our utility as allies, which was little more than Sorcerer, 10 Cultists, Helldrake 1-3.

 

I don't think that terminator troops will help us much, remember we have no rules that benefit them in their optimal role as Deep Strike units, we roll for deviation and we hope that the Dark Gods are in good mood. That is our only viable strategy for the terminators since the Chaos Land Raider is a pointless investment. With the terminators you get one, yes ONE, solid shooting phase, than you are dead weight if you cannot get into combat. 

 

But what we would benefit:

 

Chosen 1-3 as unit upgrade characters (like Sanguinary Priests); 

 

Terminator Armor as an upgrade for the Aspiring Champion. This means a power weapon as stock, a great armor save and a way to boost our chaos space marines on foot. It allows us to live one turn longer before being blasted apart and would grant us a chance in duels.

 

A Relentless standard or unit upgrade. The game is moving on back to mobile firepower, and a single squad with this rule can easily be a gold thing for our army. A simple rule, nothing more and nothing less. Up from the sudden the extra CCW will be a valid option.

 

A PA special character that can function as an unit upgrade or as an independent character, with the kit to boost either the melee or the shooting phase. We can have tons of special weapons across our army if we wish so, we could very well have some minor bonus here. Again a basic Relentless would be golden. Rapid Fire plasma and than charge. 

 

A way to reroll a single discipline check per turn. That would be enough to save us oh so many times. 

 

Minor daemonic weapons as unit upgrades for the Aspiring Champions. A solid daemonic bolter or a daemonic chainsword for 10 points would help us in many ways in the shooting or the assault phase. The balance comes from the rule Daemonic Weapon, it can be awesome or it can be bad. 

 

 

 

All in all, we need just one thing, Relentless. Be it in the form of a character, a standard or an upgrade like the VotLW but at this stage of the game a way to have a Relentless unit of CSM would be very, very helpful. 

[Sception]

The supplement isn't about buffs or fixing books, the supplements are about adding fluff for subfactions, along with maybe some minor rules or restrictions where necessary to represent that fluff.

 

The problems with black legion armies aren't that the book doesn't cover the subfaction, but rather that the book itself has problems.  The fixes to that aren't and shouldn't come in the form of $50 bandaids restricted to specific theme lists.  The fixes to that need to come primarily in the form of new transports added to the main book itself, and perhaps new cult rules replacing the existing ones as well.  Those fixes won't come from supplements, they'll either come from white dwarf to coincide with new model releases if we're lucky, or our next codex if we're less lucky, or not at all.  One can only hope they'd come along with FAQs nerfing the drake somewhat, because right now we don't need stronger rules to win games, drakes win games already.

 

The single cult or dedicated undivided or recent renegade subfactions - now those you can argue might need adjustments to represent them, and I'm sure we'll see more divergence from their supplements when they appear - cult terminators in particular seem likely.  But black legion?

 

Look, if they were going to 'fix the CSM book', they'd do just that, fix the book.  That's not what these supplements are about.  People are afraid this is going to be 50 pages of fluff and no meaningful rules?  Well if that's something to be afraid of, then be afraid, because frankly that's basically what they've told us these supplements are supposed to be in the first place.

[daveNYC]

I don't think a terminator command squad would be that crazy to include.  Basically say one unit of terminators can be taken attached to an HQ and not take up a slot.  Upgrades as normal.  Quick, easy, gives a boost, uses existing units, doesn't bork the FOC too much.

[Sception]

If I had to guess, I'd predict that we'll get, rules wise:

 

1) a new warlord trait table, one that seems meant to support deep striking termie lords, but that doesn't do anything if you're running Abby, since his trait is locked.

 

2) rules for Abby's chosen, all of which amount to named versions of ICs we can already build for the same cost that we can already build them, but with the option to take all four of them as a retinue for Abaddon.  A not especially good retinue, since four expensive ICs doesn't perform a retinue's job of ablative wounds, and that's piling cost on cost with Abby, and not all of his chosen have been described as wearing terminator armor, so you'll be stuck spending even more points to pick up a land raider to transport them (or possibly grabbing a Spartan or Eagle from FW, though how and whether such options will be available to supplement sublists is still nebulous).

 

3) literally nothing else.

 

 

If we get more than that, I'll be pleased, but what else does the core book really need to represent Black Legion?  Nothing, as far as I can tell.  Building up high hopes that the Black Legion supplement will 'fix' our codex, or include anything that chaos players outside the black will care about at all, seems like going out of your way to set yourself up for disappointment.  Like it's a game to see how angry you can make yourself.

[Tenebris]

No, in fact it would be a fluffy thing to include too. Still we cannot hope for WD supplements, I think that those days are gone, but GW ain't stupid, via Supplements you keep a codex running if you wish so, and they can very easily exploit this in our case. The Iyaden book was a template, an upgrade, the Farsight book can very well be a standalone army setup which can be even more competitive that the original book, so it is a codex changer afterall, the FOC changes imply that. 

 

But we need both, be it an upgrade as well as a solid gamechanger in our case. I doubt that the BL supplement will provide that but in the case of the Thousand Sons, Raptors, Warp Talons, Berzerkers and Mutilators, the traitor legion books will have to, otherwise they will be for naught. A book that fails to support the Thousand Sons as a viable unit it risks to become the worst supplement for CSM, same story for Berzerkers who really need something like the old BT Zeal...

 

But the BL is an upgrade for the generic Undivided forces, that it surely is, along with the Word Bearers. Now those two books have to shape up with minor corrections or sensible upgrades, or hell even solid warlord traits or an army wide rule or two, the concept of an Undivided CSM army. Why, because at this moment bare bones Undivided marines struggle a lot and have no other way bar this few books to improve, even just a bit.

 

The fluff is important yes, but rules more so. And as I have said above, the WD era is gone IMO, the supplements are here just because of that. Those four pages could very well feature in a WD but why they don't? It is simple, you want your army keep running than you have to buy the Supplement where like Farsight aptly put it, the good rules are.

 

 

Book by book, small rule by small rule the GW will drain us Chaos players since we would have to rely on this Supplements to keep floating. A rule change here, a minor piece of wargear there, with how liable our codex is at the moment even a rule written on the fly can very well be an upgrade. That or it is back to Plague Marine and Helldrake spam. 

 

The true question is, which rule would make Chaos sell better?

[Sception]

How are white dwarf rules 'gone'?  The white dwarf daemon updates weren't even a year ago.  The ork bombers weren't all that long before that.  They're not common, but they're not outside of hope.  If GW did release new plastic thousand sons, they'd basically need to give them new rules to sell any, and I think they know that.  Same could be said for a new dread, both of which they supposedly had people working on at some point.  And any day they felt like it, they could put a spikey bit sprue in the drop pod box, stick the rules in white dwarf, and sell more boxes of models to chaos players than they did with their entire codex release wave of dino zords.

 

I'm not saying these things are likely, but they seem within the realm of possibility to me.  A lot more possible than a supplement book aimed at a single subfaction - and specifically the one that needs little to no alterations to the main book to run fluffy armies - somehow fixing the whole book for everyone.  Like we even want every iron warrior and night lord and red coursair player running 'counts as' black legion in the first place.

[Tenebris]

Yet if the rules are just enough "proper" you can expect tons of armies as count as. That is the problem, if they make the book good than it becomes mandatory in our case, if they don't than it is downhill for CSM and I guess they know that full well. I have no problems with a bad book, just more of the same from GW, but I surely have problems if the Supplement will be a good one. Why, because than it is just like a patch, without it you run sub optimal, forcing you to improvise as count as until a new Supplements, hopefully even better come out. And I fear that this will be the case due to our current status as codex CSM. 

 

And the sad thing is that we really need some good stuff to keep floating, as much as I hate what this implies. 

[Zeroed]

Does this sound too much like wishful thinking when I throw the numbers 3 & 3.5 into the conversation?

 

Still, I'm really trying to keep my hopes low for this one (although I really am excited for the fluff to happen), but I also believe that it won't fix our 'dex in general, sadly so. Alas, it will probably allow us brothering up with the main codex, so we can run 4 drakes, 4 maulerfiends and 3 bikelords.. yay.

[Kol Saresk]

3.5 sounds like a double-edged sword when its thrown into a conversation.

 

That said, I doubt this Codex will ever be "fixed". More likely, when we get a new Codex 8 years down the road , it will simply be "reincarnated".

[Sception]

Does this sound too much like wishful thinking when I throw the numbers 3 & 3.5 into the conversation?

 

Still, I'm really trying to keep my hopes low for this one (although I really am excited for the fluff to happen), but I also believe that it won't fix our 'dex in general, sadly so. Alas, it will probably allow us brothering up with the main codex, so we can run 4 drakes, 4 maulerfiends and 3 bikelords.. yay.

 

A new codex?  Yes, that could fix things, certainly.  But that's not what these supplements are, and I especially doubt it's what the black legion supplement in particular will be.

[Zeroed]

Oh, I didn't mean for the supplement, but rather as a romantic (as in 'vengeful') dream down the road that is 6th. It HAS happened before.. ;)

[Excessus]

What really bothers me is that GW has decided that the loyalist chapters have a divergence in their tactics and preferred methods of war, but the chaos legions do not...

 

How easy wouldn't it have been to make a chaos space marines codex in the same style as the C:SM. Sublists for the legions and renegades...

 

 

...heck, I would have settled for a Special Character... :P

[hornywingythingy]

As for codex creep, Tau and Eldar aren't significantly better than necrons or grey knights or Guard or Wolves. It's not a matter of codex creep, it's a matter of recognizing where the bar already was. If you want to reign things in, you have to start with the offenders, not with the people they're already stomping on.

 

 

Tau, its debatable, I think they are certaintly better than gk, perhaps only on a par with crons, eldar, I think is possibly the most op dex to date, its not as obvious as tau, but the ability to take an all comers list who will do very well vs everyone is there, eldar will dominate tournies I predict.

 

And yeah, I agree its wrong, but frankly I have been playing since 98, and the last decade I have felt gw really don't care anymore. Its part of the reason I'm selling armies rather than buying them, for the first time in 15 years..... Honestly, things carry on this way, I may not even be playing 40k by the next csm codex, a lot leans on how they treat nids, if they screw them up again, I probably will take up warmachine, everyone else is. Though bolt action looks fun *rant over, sorry folks*

[Tenebris]

I wonder if there will be some mention of the Second Aurelian Crusade...hmm

[Icarsun]

Already posted this up in the news forum but I'll post it here as well. 

 

Pre-Order is now up, release August 17, next Saturday

iBooks Link

[Zeroed]

Soooo... chosen as troops + VotLW for all is it, then? Who's up for some plasma-spam? ;)

[Vesper]

It's actually not that bad, for a first look at the supplement. Having the option to spam Chosen without paying for Abaddon is something neat. But there's obviously more.

Not sure about how I feel about the "Hound of Abaddon" thingy, but the fluff seems mighty cool. The cover is great too.