Brother Ambroz Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 The "only" khornate members of the black legion are under this fella's command huh.... seems different to the freedom that GW has been trying to impress upon chaos nowadays. On the other hand, I like the ability to field chosen as troops without Abby, seems a great way to make units more elite. Might just have to use counts as just for that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 HoundSSSSSS!!! Plural, as in a warband name or unit designation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Sooo our supplement is rules that are already in our codex?Good job GW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarsun Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Sooo our supplement is rules that are already in our codex? Good job GW Hold your hate until we see the full thing. All we know about how the rules work is a small paragraph stating that any unit with VOTLW option must take it and Chosen are a possible Troop choice. There is nothing in the preview to give us a full scope into how the rules are going to work. The "only" khornate members of the black legion are under this fella's command huh.... seems different to the freedom that GW has been trying to impress upon chaos nowadays. On the other hand, I like the ability to field chosen as troops without Abby, seems a great way to make units more elite. Might just have to use counts as just for that.... I only skimmed his section but it was saying he claims Lordship over all Khorne-worshippers, but at the same time they don't always operate under him. Plenty of room for various other Khorne lords, he's probably going to show up as a SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Sooo our supplement is rules that are already in our codex? Without the tax for Abaddon, which could be huge. When you're forced to take Abaddon it's more than just the expense of his points, it's the fact you've got a slow, bulky warlord who needs protection. There's Abaddon's necessary escort, transport, and support units that not only influence your list building, but also how you utilize those Chosen you've paid so dearly for. Taking Abaddon out of that equation frees up more than the points, it frees up everything, letting use your Chosen more flexibly. I'd like more than that, and I'm eager to see what else is in the supplement, but that's no small thing by itself. Still hoping to see some kind of buff or FOC change for TDA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hezirah Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Not quite sure about this troop chosen business. They still die just as easily, but now you must pay veteran of long war, makes them even more expensive... Still very excited though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Sooo our supplement is rules that are already in our codex? Without the tax for Abaddon, which could be huge. When you're forced to take Abaddon it's more than just the expense of his points, it's the fact you've got a slow, bulky warlord who needs protection. There's Abaddon's necessary escort, transport, and support units that not only influence your list building, but also how you utilize those Chosen you've paid so dearly for. Taking Abaddon out of that equation frees up more than the points, it frees up everything, letting use your Chosen more flexibly.I'd like more than that, and I'm eager to see what else is in the supplement, but that's no small thing by itself. Still hoping to see some kind of buff or FOC change for TDA... Regular chaos marines come out at 16 pts a piece for 2 A and Ld 10You still dont see that as its to many points... Chosen are even worse. You pay an additional 3p a pop for the privileged of getting the option to buy more special weapons at the same price that is terrible. Sterngaurd/ vangaurd are how vets should be. Not the gold plated wannabe chosen The only thing that can really save thise piece of crap now in my opinion would be a re write of the chose entry to make them like wwolfgaurd. Becaue once again GW has given us the finger on terminator troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 The "only" khornate members of the black legion are under this fella's command huh.... seems different to the freedom that GW has been trying to impress upon chaos nowadays. On the other hand, I like the ability to field chosen as troops without Abby, seems a great way to make units more elite. Might just have to use counts as just for that.... Well isn't Urkrathos the Chosen that represents Khorne? Maybe that means they also have a specific thing for the other three Chosen. Although if that's the case, it may mean this supplement is a one-hit wonder. Put all the Undivided Legions under the black and then have a cult for the four Cult Legions. Basically, a "Legion-ified" version of the Codex. Of course, that is all just supposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Ok, quick review of the seen: - the cover is epic; - the fluff is so far very very basic (hope that there is more, I really, really hope that); - the VotLW as a mandatory upgrade is a tragic thing, if we have to pay points for it expect our lists with an average of 60 points less; - Chosen as troops is already in the book, but we will probably skip the Abby tax. Now we have an overpriced tactical marine, with a mandatory upgrade, who cannot hold properly an objective, neither is killy enough to wipe units of the board like the Sternguard. We have only six models of them and they all come in the melee setup. Since the best bet is to field them with Plasma Guns we shoot ourselves in the knee since we cannot assault than...shall I continue? They require a Rhino to function properly, they require tons of other stuff like cultist bubble warp to function, they die very very easily due to T 4 and they still roll for Discipline, which I remind you two marines dead and you have a morale check... Now the Hounds of Abaddon is a nice idea, I have so many Khorne Berzerkers shoulders to recycle that actually seems fun and fluffy to do and the added benefit is that the token red shoulderpad breaks the monotony of a black army, it breaks it in the awesome way. I guess a similar treatment will be reserved for Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle subfactions, or I hope so. Now where is my new box of chaos space marines, damn you GW? They shamelessly recycle the DV stuff and expect us to like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 The "only" khornate members of the black legion are under this fella's command huh.... seems different to the freedom that GW has been trying to impress upon chaos nowadays. It's the direct opposite of that freedom they seemed to have been going for, admittedly, but remember that it's just what a slice of text claims in a codex. It doesn't mean it's the exact, nuanced reality. Especially in terms of something that can't really be true, since... Well, since being claimed/worshipping/being bound/falling to/ascending to interaction with a god isn't like slapping a badge on your armour and going to weekly meetings. It's not that cut and dried, and the Black Legion isn't Cheers, where everybody knows your name, job, religious allegiance, and whatever else. Joking aside, it's a cool claim for a Chaos Lord to make. Remember that these guys are like Viking/Saxon/Mongol warlords in that sense - they boast, they extol their own virtues (and have heralds - and their own deeds - do it for them); they bind their men to them through cults of personality and what they offer as leaders. A codex's job is to offer a broad overview, and it's everyone else's job (novelists and Forge World writers included) to take a deeper, more involved look at the faction or character in question, which often means the details don't quite match the overview. I was one of the ones giving feedback with this codex, but I can already see - just from a handful of final paragraphs - that there'll be conflicts between this and the novel series. That happens, and it's hardly a sin (in fact, in a lot of cases, it's specifically part of my job to go in other directions to what's previously published), so I'm not freaking out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Glad you're taking it differently than what happened to the GK, back then. I thought about the Hounds of Abaddon and their leader. I interpret it as an extra layer of leadership, to reduce the risk of infighting and make sure Abaddon's will is what prevails within the ranks of the Black Legion. Might not be as huge of a deal as it is described, but that surely makes a difference. Then, we're talking about the Black Legion at the peak of its power, in 40k. 12 Black Crusades happened, and Abaddon probably learned a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Glad you're taking it differently than what happened to the GK, back then. Different circumstances. One was a codex dropping halfway through a novel, with serious changes to the character of a faction, with no chance to see it beforehand. One was a codex that I had a lot of feedback for, and that the digital department were kind enough to change X, Y, and Z based on said feedback. There's stuff I'm consciously ignoring, or subverting, because it's closer to Edition X's lore rather than Edition Y's lore, and I prefer Edition Y's lore. But there's no sense of malice, or anything like that. I'm surprised at the tone of the preview text, I admit. It's very black and white, no pun intended. Say what you want about the rules of the main codex on here, the lore and tone of the description matched all the IP chatter I've been part of, and the tone of Chaos a bunch of us seemed to agree with, going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted August 10, 2013 Author Share Posted August 10, 2013 e-book's not out till september 7th. I don't own an ipad. By then, I'll be back in classes, and won't have much time for 40k. Oh, well. Forced vet's upgrades in exchange for chosen troops? I can't say I'm shocked, but making all your units overpriced in exchange for the dubious advantage of fielding even more overpriced troops is basically going to make the black legion list a worse version of the regular CSM book. Hopefully they get other cookies as well, otherwise I'm going to be buying this book for the fluff, but running my CSMs out of the standard book instead. I mean, vets is alright on CSMs and bikes and other units where it only costs one point a model, but it's pretty terrible on raptors or chosen or terminators or any other unit where it costs more than a single point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 I'm surprised at the tone of the preview text, I admit. It's very black and white, no pun intended. Say what you want about the rules of the main codex on here, the lore and tone of the description matched all the IP chatter I've been part of, and the tone of Chaos a bunch of us seemed to agree with, going forward. I have to admit I felt a bit empty handed when I read the lore of the CSM codex. A quick paragraph on each Legion, several pages on the Abyssal crusade (I felt it sould've been either expanded, by giving us more info on the fate of some chapters, or reduced, to include different pieces of background). Then, there's the timeline, which is great. But that's pretty much it, and, well, I wanted more. Could you expand on that "black and white" part of your vision of the preview ? Feels like the introductory pages of the supplement. I guess the best cookies are those in the jar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 I'm surprised at the tone of the preview text, I admit. It's very black and white, no pun intended. Say what you want about the rules of the main codex on here, the lore and tone of the description matched all the IP chatter I've been part of, and the tone of Chaos a bunch of us seemed to agree with, going forward. I have to admit I felt a bit empty handed when I read the lore of the CSM codex. A quick paragraph on each Legion, several pages on the Abyssal crusade (I felt it sould've been either expanded, by giving us more info on the fate of some chapters, or reduced, to include different pieces of background. Then, there's the timeline, which is great. But that's pretty much it, and, well, I wanted more. Could you expand on that "black and white" part of your vision of the preview ? The "Hounds of Abaddon" text, in its entirety. Bear in mind I have to be very careful with what I say here, as anything can be turned in a negative light, and that's not my intent. A lot of people will love it because it's detail and structure from vagueness, and everyone craves detail. I crave detail. Crave it hard. If it comes down to tone, though - a lot of my posts on here plainly show what tone for Chaos I prefer and tend to run with. I wouldn't expect to see any Chaos Lords leading all Khorne-Marked or Tzeentch-Marked warriors in the Black Legion series, for example. From my understanding of Chaos, and the discussions I've been part of with other IP folks, it's just not that black and white. Codex hyperbole is a thing. And not necessarily a bad thing. Like I said (and I'm being very careful not to say anything in this thread that Dan Abnett or Alan Bligh haven't already said in interviews and at signings), it's a broad overview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 I wouldn't expect to see any Chaos Lords leading all Khorne-Marked or Tzeentch-Marked warriors in the Black Legion series, for example. I'm not expecting anything close to that either. To be fair, I was quite surprised by that Hounds of Abaddon thingy. I think it might be a sacrifice to flesh out the command structure of the Black Legion. It's interesting to talk about how, within the Black Legion, antagonist cults manage (or not) to put aside their differences to serve a higher purpose. And that probably is also what happens at the head of the Legion. I wonder if we'll have similar stuff for Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle. EDIT : Looks like they brought back the old Black Legion catechism I posted here a while ago. Nice touch, but is Horus a thing again in the Black Legion ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 I wouldn't expect to see any Chaos Lords leading all Khorne-Marked or Tzeentch-Marked warriors in the Black Legion series, for example. EDIT : Looks like they brought back the old Black Legion catechism I posted here a while ago. Nice touch, but is Horus a thing again in the Black Legion ? No. God, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Okay, from Blood of Kitten : http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/photo-7.jpg http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/photo-8.jpg http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/photo-9.jpg http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/photo-10.jpg http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/photo-11.jpg http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/photo-12.jpg http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/photo-13.jpg http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/photo-14.jpg http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/photo-15.jpg http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/photo-16.jpg No. God, no. Thank God, that was confusing. EDIT : High resolution cover http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/photo1.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RolandTHTG Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Is it weird that I like the all VotLW rule? Not only is it fluffy, being the force that declared the long war, but I also prefer to run my units with it. I do agree that i is overpriced on the raptors and chosen, but my chosen will still usually end up with it.I may grab this, if the rule boosts are good enough, even though I'm not planning to take the black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Truth be told that upgrade means in the long turn an Obliterator less in our lists and we really depend on those. I am the only one who does not agree that VotLW represents the BL. Sure we have to see the other rules too but the same applies to the Chosen, we cannot play an Elite army as CSM for we have not the tools to do so. As I have written on Tilea, there is one big difference between the generic Veteran Marine armies out there and our poor attempt to play like elites, in fact the differences are two. The first and most remarkable is the Drop Pod. To use stock special weapons like Plasma Guns, you have to come close and the SM players of three books do it better because of the Drop Pod which allows a player to be in Rapid Fire range in turn one. Dark Angels Veterans, Sternguard and Wolf Guard are all better as Elite marines with basic stats due to this very significant mechanic. The second difference is the ATSKNF which helps those same very costly and elite units to fare better in a number of occasions. Say you loose two marines to such a squad. The SM, SW, DA might fail a morale check but they regroup in the next turn, thus your investment in points for those ubergeared five marines is still somehow preserved. In close combat this prevents you to loose your pricey unit to the sweeping advance. Now know that the only way to field reasonably capable Chosen is in Rhinos. It will be turn two or even three, if you loose your Rhino, before you will be able to bear the full weight of those four Plasma Guns on the enemy units. If you loose two marines you risk to fail discipline and this will eliminate the threat of our 200 points Chosen, or even worse if you get stuck in melee, than you have lost your squad to usually cheap stopgap units. Needless to say such a unit has no hope to hold an objective. I wonder has someone actually played Chaos Space Marines in GW in an actual battle or we are doomed to fail like in our first WD battle report and hear hear, even in this month's battle report, against the same adversary, Space Marines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted August 10, 2013 Author Share Posted August 10, 2013 Unless the bits we haven't seen are pretty significant, I agree. 'must take vets' in exchange for troop chosen is actually worse than just running lists out of the regular book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totgeboren Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Well, that seems to be the design ethos for CSM. They removed two really good rules (Combat Tactics and ATSKNF), and in returned gave us a really bad rule in the shape of Champion of Chaos. It seems like GW thinks two plus equals a minus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted August 10, 2013 Author Share Posted August 10, 2013 Far from providing an alternative to drake spam, it seems likely that the only thing this supplement will add to the competitive scene is self-allying quad drake CSM lists. Oh, well. It'll still be a week before we know for sure. The only thing I'm really bitter about is the three week wait for the ebook version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornywingythingy Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Well, that seems to be the design ethos for CSM. They removed two really good rules (Combat Tactics and ATSKNF), and in returned gave us a really bad rule in the shape of Champion of Chaos. It seems like GW thinks two plus equals a minus... Its the design ethos, designed to fail! ;) ^@ malisteen, told ya so, though it brings me no pleasure to say it, 4 heldrakes was likely the only thing you could guarantee would be an option from this cos it means gw sell more hellturkeys.... Which probably account for more cam sales than the rest of the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted August 10, 2013 Author Share Posted August 10, 2013 I don't know how many turkeys they'll really sell though. In casual games, I find my two turkeys are usually more than enough, I haven't been tempted to pick up even the third I could already take. Though I suppose dual turkey plus two units of spawn or bikes might be nice. I'd still probably rather run daemon allies. If they really wanted to sell boxes to chaos players, they'd slap a spikey bit sprue in a drop pod box, with a white dwarf write up to make it a dedicated transport for our marine infantry. I know I harp on this alot, but I bought all of two boxes from our codex release, and I'd buy twice that of drop pods alone if it were only an option, and I can't be the only one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.