And the Supplement for CSM is....

[Tenebris]

Again 2/3 of the 40k community revolves around tournaments, here you meet likeminded people, here you meet other 40k fans and here you see the full plethora of armies out there. Friendly is only good as training, unless you have something like 10 "friends" who play hardcore 40k every day. If I want my 40k fix than it is torunaments, campaigns or leagues for me and sorry the Chosen ain't cut for theese things.

 

On the subject of the Hounds and the discussion that followed. We have a Legion, a faction composed by as many rivals as allies, from as many ideologies as religions, cults, lodges as from divergent combat doctrines. Now imagine how is it to keep such a faction together considering that you have to vie for the favor of the Dark Gods too.

 

Choosing an allegiance with a Chaos god is a personal choice but in very broad terms is like choosing a political party. If your party is on the top you enjoy the benefits if not you suffer the consequences, in such terms choosing an allegiance with a Chaos god can make you or break you. Abby has to deal not with one but with four such parties and it is only understandable that he polarized the religious followers and cult forces around some inspiring figures, figures like the lord of the Hounds that are in his pocket. 

 

Via him Abby keeps a check on the Khorne followers, his lordship over the lord of the Hounds also allows him to better channel the Khornates, allows him to favor them or to dismiss them, all according to the ever shifting tide of chaos allegiance in the Black Legion. Should such factions not have a focal point, a leader to identify them and their claims in the BL it would be very hard to create a cohesive force in the long turn. The leadership in all chaos warbands is based upon two cardinal values, personal ambition and paranoia. You aspire but so do many others and here the paranoia kicks in. 

 

I find that with such a disparate host of warbands, cults, subfactions and creeds Abby needs such figures as the lord of the Hounds, not only to command better his Black Legion but also to play the Great Game between the gods. 

 

The question is than what truly keeps the Legion together and I presume, and I would love to hear more from ADB on that, that this is the role of the Dark Apostles. Religious figures in other legions but I dare say more like political officers in the Black Legion. Abby really needs at this point a way to tie in the many factions and I presume this is a job for an elite cadre of Undivided prophets, enforcers or officers. 

 

Keep in mind that a BL marine who has decided to follow the ways of Khorne would in the long term operate within his warband to gain the favor of his deity and would seek to expand the influence of Khrone among the ranks. Thus it is reasonable that as a Hound he would harbor allegiance to the Lord of the Hounds, perhaps even do his dirty work in his original warband, lightyears away from the major staging points of the Black Legion and by doing so he would play in the hands of Abaddon who trough the Lord of the Hounds would keep a mariginal control over the Khorne elements. Animosity and murder are hardly shocking in chaos warbands but should the actions of the Khorne faction become too vocal, than we are in for a new Lord of the Hounds, the former probably dead by now. 

 

Now the same Khornate marine would advance from basic marine to become a seasoned veteran and probably he would by now be steeped in the worship of Khorne. Now I guess trough a series of subcults, quests, or perhaps the favor of the Hounds he would be inducted into the ranks of the berzerkers. Warbands disband and forge relentlessly in the Black Legion as in all Chaos, thus I presume having some leaders who are wholly dedicated to a single deity helps to smooth this transition from marine to cult marine, from warband to warband, from lodge to lodge, from cult to cult. 

 

Now think also how many specific rituals are observed by the Slaaneshi or by the Tzeentchians, how many sects do the followers of Nurgle have and how many implements requires a Khornate cult. Now by having the lord of the Hounds Abaddon is very able to provide all those things and a modicum of freedom to the numerous Khorne cults within his Legion and still being capable to guide their actions trough his lieutenats and cult ministers. 

[Trevak Dal]

What really broke the back was prior to kellys release the new book was described as the refining of the gavdex, completely ignoring 4 years of complaints from csm players who want legions and options, not one/two builds and a retarded rule ported straight from woc in fantasy (where it was also considered retarded when kelly put it in the book)

Still, think positive, we can probably ally csm with black legion.... Four heldrakes/12 obliterators anyone?

It'd be the only REAL battle brothers we'd get. If it weren't for the stupid Black Templar-ish Always having to challenge (or they allowed us to make more formidable champions...) it would be serviceable as is. Then again, my main army is Tau, so I'm pretty damn pleased.

If the Vanilla Dex allows the same level (or greater) customization than the chaos dex, I'm going to chuck the Chaos Codex in the next brush burn.

[Gree]

Again 2/3 of the 40k community revolves around tournaments, here you meet likeminded people, here you meet other 40k fans and here you see the full plethora of armies out there. Friendly is only good as training, unless you have something like 10 "friends" who play hardcore 40k every day. If I want my 40k fix than it is torunaments, campaigns or leagues for me and sorry the Chosen ain't cut for theese things.

Speak for yourself. I never go to tournaments. I dislike the overly competitive atmosphere and I've walked away with generally bad experiences. But that's not the point. You seem to be overreacting. I just simply noted that Chosen were good enough for friendly play, but Plague Marines and other choices were better. My post wasn't even directed at anyone.

[Excessus]

Did you change avatar, Gree? :)

 

 

My feeling towards this supplement is: "cautious"

 

Making chosen troops is hardly enough of an incentive to play this supplement. Against the new powerhouse Eldar, they are lackluster...though to be fair they are a cheap(ish) way to get more heavy weapons into the troop slot... :P

[Tenebris]

It is not that I favor tournaments much but in my region they are the only time to see the 40k community. In my town we have two gameclubs and while I enjoy friendly games I don't feel much inclined to play against children of 12-15 years who switch armies with every book as long as their daddy has money. To meet other, more mature, players I have to rely solely on the tournaments, the campaigns and the leagues. That is why I am also considering to start with Warhammer Fantasy, not that I like the gameplay or the background for I don't, but because I like to play in as many events as possible as many games as possible. 

 

With my Chaos army I am now nearing 100 games, 2/3 of which are done in tournaments, not that I am a competitive player per say but because if I want to play I have to play competitive. And truth be told I couldn't have chosen a worst codex than our CSM for this. Yet such is the situation for 40k is an expensive hobby and it has become a struggle to find people around 25-30 years old that play 40k in my area, even for the remote "friendly" games, which I can count on my fingers.  

[hornywingythingy]

 

 

Again 2/3 of the 40k community revolves around tournaments, here you meet likeminded people, here you meet other 40k fans and here you see the full plethora of armies out there. Friendly is only good as training, unless you have something like 10 "friends" who play hardcore 40k every day. If I want my 40k fix than it is torunaments, campaigns or leagues for me and sorry the Chosen ain't cut for theese things.

Speak for yourself. I never go to tournaments. I dislike the overly competitive atmosphere and I've walked away with generally bad experiences. But that's not the point. You seem to be overreacting. I just simply noted that Chosen were good enough for friendly play, but Plague Marines and other choices were better. My post wasn't even directed at anyone.

Actually estimates are hardcore tournie players make up only 10% of the community, though there's no figures on their spending, I'd figure cos of their habits of army swapping, sales wise they buy more than 5-10% worth.

[Gree]

Did you change avatar, Gree?

Yeah, Plague Marines.

It is not that I favor tournaments much but in my region they are the only time to see the 40k community. In my town we have two gameclubs and while I enjoy friendly games I don't feel much inclined to play against children of 12-15 years who switch armies with every book as long as their daddy has money. To meet other, more mature, players I have to rely solely on the tournaments, the campaigns and the leagues. That is why I am also considering to start with Warhammer Fantasy, not that I like the gameplay or the background for I don't, but because I like to play in as many events as possible as many games as possible.

A difference in communities then. Everyone at my gaming club is around my age and older and it's a nice relaxed and casual atmosphere were everybody has a good deal of fun. I've attended a few 40k tournaments and I've found the competitive atmosphere, timed events and general nature of it to be very unappealing. I honestly never had fun.

Heck, it was a Fantasy tournament that helped me stay away, after a guy basically mocked my Vampire Counts fluff army. If you have a better experience though I wish you luck at least in your local gaming area.

Actually estimates are hardcore tournie players make up only 10% of the community, though there's no figures on their spending, I'd figure cos of their habits of army swapping, sales wise they buy more than 5-10% worth.

That's nice. It doesn't change my point nor does it change my experiences in the matter. I have attended a few tournaments and I found I have no desire to other attend them again, thank you very much.

[hornywingythingy]

^wasnt an attempt to change your point of view gree, just clarifying. it takes all sorts, and certainly in the uk tournie attendance has fallen off in comparison to 5th. I like tournaments, I think that they are the most competitive games you can get, and I enjoy competing on that level, but know its not for everyone.

[Sedekiel]

Is it me or do I detect a "fluff" pardon to Horus ? I dont know what the rest of the fluff will be in the book, but I cant detect the detest towards Horus the Black Legionaires supposedely had. They are the Sons of Horus AND something more not the ones trying to forget they ever were...

At least that is what I get form the 2 fluff pages available.

[caboosebe]

It amazes me how people have problems with the fact that the Black Legion can indeed support multiple cults within its ranks without having a full scale war between them.

We all accept that Horus could keep the World Eaters and Emperor's Children in line (they did not obey all the time, but that did not turn their back on the Imperium to go fight each other) but we can not accept that Abaddon can do the same thing on a smaller scale?

 

Abaddon is the reason why there is no intra-legion war. Yes, there would be small fights, traps, backstabbing. But no huge campaign to destroy the whole sect. 

Most likely they would be kept on different ships in the fleet. Now imagine they would indeed be on the Vengeful Spirit:

 

"Hello my good for nothing slave, I am in a jolly mood to kill some Slaaneshi worshippers as I am a member of the Bloody God of Blood and what not. Would you be so kind as to tell me the way to the nearest Slaanesh shrine."

"Why certainly, my great and powerful Master. You would first need to go to Front section A, walk besides the main reactors, go up to the torture chambers, take a left at the bathrooms, walk in front of Abaddon and take the door on the right of him, Take the 4th staircase to section B, and ..."

"Wait, what did you say before the staircase?"

"Take a left at the bathrooms."

"After that"

"Walk in front of Abaddon."

"And you are sure there is no other way?"

"Positive."

"Never mind then."

 

(PS. Note this is not the way it would happen, but I like to explain my points in a jolly way.) 

 

Abaddon is the ones that keeps them from going to a full scale war. This may be through fear, promises, murder, maybe even granting some fights to prevent bigger fights, who knows ...

 

It is as A-D-B tells us so often. Chaos, and Warhammer at that matter isn't simply black and white. Way to many people are trapped in little box where things belong to side A or side B, not leaving room for anything in between. Chaos is grey, all of Warhammer is grey. It is this that makes it so wonderful. It encourages you to be creative and not settle with a single fact. Use your imagination. Adapt to new fluff facts and read between the lines what it means.

 

 

That is ofcourse if you are a fluff-nut like me. I can understand that those who are more interested in the rules then the thrill of how to make a fluffy excuse for a new rule, would not be so happy about fluff chances.

[Sception]

If chosen are troops by default, that does potentially open up the possibility that Abaddon will do something else for the army instead. I know more than a few have been hoping for troop terminators. I wonder if it will be worth it in an army that comes with 300 odd points of tax, between abby and the vets requirement (3 points apiece on terminators! yuck!)

[KingDeath]

Hrm, no new miniatures to replace some of the godawful old ones? ( especialy csm) Check

Stupidly overpriced? Check

Why should i buy this supplement? These days FFG produces better fluff and better rules at usualy lower prices than GW which makes buying from the later ever more unattractive, especialy since GW seems to be unable to update many of their severely outdated miniatures.

[Sception]

So far, the only reason to buy this supplement is the same as the only reason to buy the Iyanden supplement. ie: you happen to play that particular subfaction, and want a book of fluff about them.

 

That's it. Then again, that should be the only motivation to buy a supplement. I know I don't want to see functionally several dozen new codeces clogging up the game, and I especially don't want to see supplements to feel like an obligatory purchase alongside a given codex, effectively doubling the price of rules for any given faction.

 

 

As for models, this is just a digital release. I don't expect any new models to coincide with the supplements, but if it were going to happen, it would be alongside the release of the physical book, which won't be until October or November at the earliest, and might be longer than that depending on whether GW actually gets the rumored new printing facilities up and running.

[Tenebris]

The thing is that you are free to not take Chosen, you are also free to not take Abaddon for your Black Legion but you are not free to not take VotLW, which as I have said a few posts above it will prevent you from fielding one more Obliterator. If the rule comes in stock and for free than BL is actually an improvement, not for Hatred but for that single point of Discipline, if the rule comes with its basic price than we are better off with the BL supplement. 

 

In the long turn the stock CSM need really little to improve the gameplay, I am still hoping for a Relentless character to make my CSM an actual threat in the 24'' bracket. One takes the Chosen to bring special weapons to the army and it is worth to remember that Havoc too and for a much lower price can get those same very weapons and still be as effective, and more economic than the Chosen. In the long turn those Havocs can even become scoring if you roll Big Guns Never Tire which happens a lot in my case.

 

Than remains the question, did we really get the feeling that the BL is an Elite, Veteran army. I dare say not. It is much more likely that the BL has thousands of novice marines for Abaddon is agressive when comes to recruiting. I think an emphasis on vast armouries full of stuff would be a better start, most surely along the lines of the fluff. Veteran marines are IMO a thing of the Cult legions, they are the ones where this template works better than in the BL. Sure the BL has a strong core of elite marines but the majority of its bulk, the majority of its strength comes from thousands upon thousands of marines stolen from all across the galaxy, bearing all kind of geneseed templates, doctrines and creed. That is why I love it, because it is Chaos at its most agressive and dominant template. 

 

Now so far the VotLW seems a very bad idea, a very very bad idea. It will be horrible if we have to pay points for it, especially in my case since I love Terminators and I usually field them in strong numbers, but here we speak of 3 points per model for the upgrade. And there comes the problem than while the SM are indeed our most dire enemies there are other armies out there against which you do not need Hatred. As long as you stay in your Rhino you do not roll for discipline and in most cases when you are out of the Rhino you are either dead or soon to be dead so you cling to cover like a madman. The problem is that VotLW is a melee upgrade and we do not fare well in melee. 

 

But there is a nice thing to this supplement. In the last lot I have traded some of my stuff for 50 CSM with pistol and ccw, I guess here they are my new Hounds of Abaddon. A meager excuse, a subpar army and a not competitive setup, but hey it is fluffy. Too bad I cannot play much fluffy if I do not want to be beaten by all those funky lists out there. 

 

Nah, fluff is probably the go to with this book, some art and some color schemes too but I dearly hope that my black spikey marines will be useful as Black Legion in other ways than Chosen troops, VotLW and some new warlord traits. As I have said this books can make or break CSM since we are in a bad predicament as a codex and in the long run we will loose the race for our existance as a standalone army.

 

Now you say don't worry we are fluffy, but I say, we are fluffy yes but we cannot fight properly. And while there is a great upheaval out there for the new SM I worry only about a single thing, a cheap codex Librarian with Mastery 1 for 60 for the new book. This will break us as an army for all those Divination rolls will not be used on cheap tacticals but by all means we will see them used on their battle buddies, the Tau. 

 

So pardon me if I am a bit rough but the Chosen ain't helping us much here and even less does the VotLW.

[hornywingythingy]

So far, the only reason to buy this supplement is the same as the only reason to buy the Iyanden supplement. ie: you happen to play that particular subfaction, and want a book of fluff about them.

 

Actually, there are many reasons to run iyanden, better warlord traits, some really funky gear, and no restrictions, you don't even have to have a single wraith unit in your army. Iyanden has better warlord traits and gear than the codex, which for many is enough to justify the price. (seriously, the codex elder traits are mostly situational at best)

 

If you doubt this, check out the 11th company podcasts and 40kuk, its being run heavily as there's no reason not to, unlike the bl rumours atm.

[Prot]

Man I can't believe what you guys are debating.

 

I want rules. I don't care about the petty infighting of cults. Abaddon sets the dance floor with which all the powers come to party. Who cares about personal motives? I guess my dream of seeing an 'undivided' true troop type (Black Legionnaire) is kind of dead though.

 

I see Abe and Huron similar, but in two very different ways:

 

Abe has the only house where EVERYONE will meet for Christmas. Evey once in a while someone else says, 'Let me host the Holiday' and it goes to hell in a handbasket. Abe is the only one that hosts dinner, and everyone shows up. The drunk uncle, the cousin who did some time in prison, the thrice divorced spinster with a truckload of kids, etc. The point is they all show up, some have gifts, some just bring that crappy tupperware container with jello, but they're into it.

 

Huron is different, and operates on a different level to me. Huron takes in runaway kids with a tendency towards destructive behaviour.  The kids are drawn to Huron because he has the coolest clubhouse where you can meet up for graphiti night, or perhaps jack some cars or even hold up a seven-eleven. Huron gets those things done. Big Christmas dinners? Not so much his thing.

 

However you want to interpret Abe's scenario in rules is debatable. There are TONS of ways of doing it. The problem is in the current codex, it really isn't there. The binding factor and sense of 'grand ruler' and the ability to gather a massive, ancient force that gets together and eats themselves to death while sharing rum and eggnog just isn't there right now. Period.

[Vesper]

 

The question is than what truly keeps the Legion together and I presume,

and I would love to hear more from ADB on that, that this is the role

of the Dark Apostles. Religious figures in other legions but I dare say

more like political officers in the Black Legion. Abby really needs at

this point a way to tie in the many factions and I presume this is a job

for an elite cadre of Undivided prophets, enforcers or officers.

Their hatred for the Imperium and the chance to get some glory and the favour of the gods. Or just to please Abaddon.

[HJL]

Hrm, no new miniatures to replace some of the godawful old ones? ( especialy csm) Check

Stupidly overpriced? Check

Why should i buy this supplement? These days FFG produces better fluff and better rules at usualy lower prices than GW which makes buying from the later ever more unattractive, especialy since GW seems to be unable to update many of their severely outdated miniatures.

Thats all very well and good KingDeath but how fun is a game where the closest person for you to get a game in is 50 miles away because no one plays any FFG games?

[Vesper]

MajorWesJanson wrote:

     

 

       
                Warlord Traits:

1. Black Crusader: same as CSM book

2. Decapitation Strike: If the Warlord or his unit kill the enemy Warlord, you gain an additional Victory Point.

3. Justaerian Assault: The Warlord and his unit do not scatter when
arriving from Deep-strike, but may not make a run move on the turn they
arrive. If your warlord cannot Deep-Strike, reroll this result

4. Strike them Down: One Use only- declare at the start of either your
shooting or any assault phase. The Warlord and his unit gain the
Precision Shot and Precision blow rule for the remainder of that phase,
or if they already have that rule, make precision shots/blows on a 5 or
6.

5. Black legion Elite: Chaos Terminator and Chosen units are scoring. If
you have no Chaos Terminator or Chosen squads in your army, reroll this
result.

6. Crusade Champion: One Use Only: During a challenge, the Warlord may
reroll a single to hit, to wound, or saving throw roll, or force the
opponent to do the same.

HQ modification: Lords of the Black Crusade- You may take 1-4 Chaos Lords as a single HQ selection.

Rules modification: Mark of Chaos Undivided: Model gains +1 WS and may
may choose to take any Chaos Icon. Price is same as Mark of Khorne

6 pieces of Relic Wargear

Done.

Multiple Chaos Lords = Multiple Cult Units moved to Troops.

Mark of Chaos Undivided feels nice. Along with the Icon of Excess.

The Warlord traits are cool, but they mean we don't have any other way to have terminators scoring and a teleport homer other than relying on a dice roll.

I hope the Wargear is nice and fluffy.

[Gree]

Where did you get that from?

[Vesper]

Where did you get that from?

BOLS.

 

EDIT :

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?34196-Black-Legion-supplement-next/page4

Don't know if it's legit, once again, a guy posted that.

[daboarder]

Huh, did he PM you? 

 

I cannot find that post on BoLS

[Tenebris]

1-4 Chaos Lords as a single HQ means four Fearless squads...now how many things can we make fearless...oh yes my horde of 80 CSM.

 

Now that is scary.

 

 

Chaos Lord Jimmy - Terminator Armor, Combiplasma, Lightning Claw - goes with Terminators

Chaos Lord Timmy - Combiflamer, Melta Bombs - goes with Plasma Chosen in a Rhino

Chaos Lord Mike - Combiflamer, Melta Bombs, Lightning Claw -  20 CSM, 2x Plasma, Melta Bombs,...

Chaos Lord Johnny - Combiflamer, Melta Bombs - Cultist or CSM duty

 

That leaves me with another HQ slot for a dirty cheap Sorcerer with Telepathy for some CSM duty...

 

I think if the traits prove to be true it would be wise to have a Terminator and a Chosen squad around, but not multiples of them. 

 

1-4 Lords means that the BL is an infantry heavy army. So it is wise to get as many bodies in there as possible. Mark of Undivided and if there are some spare points, Icon of Excess. 

 

I guess more than 100 points per Lord must not be spent if it is possible. 

[daboarder]

Yeah and how many lists can you fit more than 2 chaos lords in?

 

edit: pretty sure that the warlord traits are speculation, they we're posted last month

[Gree]

 

 

Where did you get that from?

BOLS.

 

EDIT :

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?34196-Black-Legion-supplement-next/page4

Don't know if it's legit, once again, a guy posted that.

 

 

Looking at the thread itself, I don't think that's official at all. Looking at the context of the original post it's about a guy listing stuff he wished he could have to represent the Black Legion.