And the Supplement for CSM is....

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah pretty sure that was a wishlisting post.

[daboarder]

especially because scoring chosen contradicts them being troops anyway

[Sception]

pure wishlisting. We won't know more until the 17th.

[Warsmith Aznable]

So it's likely a wishlist. At the very least it illustrates that there is still a lot to look forward to, and that moving Chosen into a Troops slot isn't the only thing we can expect or hope for. Some good warlord traits and a few pieces of wargear could go a long way toward making the Black Legion supplement as cool to use as the other supplements, even if most people have already decided that the Chosen thing is terrible.

 

I remain optimistic.

[Sception]

I'm still firmly in the 'expect nothing and you shall not be disappointed' camp.

[Trevak Dal]

I'm still firmly in the 'expect nothing and you shall not be disappointed' camp.

Yeah, after the Chaos codex came out that's what I did for my Tau and was greatly rewarded.

[Brother Aiwass]

But this is Chaos. We're gonna be screwed!

[Sception]

This isn't the format that we would want corrections to the main book, anyway.  Extra fluff for subfactions that need it (like the Black Legion)?  Sure.  Rules tweaks for subfactions that aren't well covered by codex options (like the cult legions)?  Sure.  But balance and rule fixes for the main book itself?  No, we don't want that.  We don't want every CSM army under the sun running 'counts as' black legion.  We don't want chaos players to feel obligated to pay $30 to $50 on functionally two pages of errata.

 

We want our codex to be fixed, but we don't want the supplement books to do it.  New errata online, replacement rules in White Dwarf, new models for our elite infantry, new transport options from GW or forgeworld - any of these things could provide a reasonable fix to our codex, especially if we saw simultaneous nerfing of the dreaded heldrake.  But this is simply not the kind of thing we want from a supplement book.

 

It would be dumb if they did it that way, and we would be rightfully complaining about how unreasonable it is to have to spend $50 bucks on a two page patch.

[Tenebris]

I have 98 marines primed in black and ready to wear the colors of the Black Legion. I have decided to wait a bit until the supplement comes out with the new warbands, cults and factions of the Black Legion. The Hounds of Abaddon proved me right. I guess I will distribute those red shoulder pad across my army. It will surely break the monotony. 

 

But still, we need something to make Undivided playable. A Mark for Undivided, perhaps a Relentless HQ, this are few things that a supplement is in the power to provide. Nothing fancy but something that boosts the plain grunt of our codex would be very welcome. 

[Brother Aiwass]

Maybe we should go to the central GW office with our dexes at hand, put them in a pile and set it on fire in front of GW main doors. Maybe then, they get it. We can call it "Crusade of Fire" :lol:

[Rayray]

Or, maybe GW should just make the supplement factions of undivided to avoid players snagging the supplement for counts as. Make it twice as big. Given enough fluff, and say, 8-10 pages of rules, i'd probably hand over 100 bucks for it. And I know its already confirmed and up for preorder. Just frustrating that one release is supposed to sate so many chaos players....

[A D-B]

Again 2/3 of the 40k community revolves around tournaments, here you meet likeminded people, here you meet other 40k fans and here you see the full plethora of armies out there. Friendly is only good as training, unless you have something like 10 "friends" who play hardcore 40k every day. If I want my 40k fix than it is torunaments, campaigns or leagues for me and sorry the Chosen ain't cut for theese things.

 

Hmm. 

 

"The Community" is a very nebulous term, because it implies something that doesn't really exist. There's no "black community", but there tends to be a look at about 0.000001% of the Earth's dark-skinned population who are visible and vocal in the American (and occasionally European) media landscape as "the black community". It's the same thing with the "gamer community" or whatever else, including the 40K community. 

 

Slightly more relevantly, I promise you that everything I've heard not just from Games Workshop but a number of games companies and miniature producers that the tournament scene vastly, vastly, vastly overstates its importance. I see tournament players (and 3++ is the worst offender for this) often insisting they're the dominant force and that it's an injustice they're ignored by most companies, but ultimately, they're not the majority they claim to be. Not even close. A lot of chatter with miniature gaming has that many of any gaming company's sales go to customers who don't even play regularly, if at all. And beneath that you have the thousands and thousands of gamers who play casually, not caring about prefabricated army lists, not caring about forums to chat about tactics or share their opinions. They're the silent but overwhelming majority. Tournament players are, from everything I've seen and heard, a niche of a niche of a niche - but they're also the loudest in terms of speaking up online, for obvious reasons. They have the most to say, the most feedback to give, and the most advice to offer.

 

Remember, your focus determines your reality - on online forums, we're pretty much the bleeding edge of 40K fandom: the ones who can't stop talking and thinking about it to the point we find ourselves discussing it online with strangers for years on end, writing our opinions time and time again, and seeking the advice of others. 

 

Don't ever assume we represent average 40K fans. We're about as niche as you can get, in the overriding figures. I'm willing to bet every one of us knows a dozen players or fans that don't go anywhere near forums. I'm in a 40K group with 20 people. A handful of them Google army lists and read online tacticas. Most don't care. They like what they like, play what they play, and that's all they need - they're not any less involved in the hobby than any of us, but forums just don't register on their radar. I'm the only one that actually posts, out of 20 of the most hobby-obsessed people the world has ever seen. In 20 years of being into the hobby, I've never once played in a GW store. I've sought out gaming clubs or set them up with my friends, ever since I got into gaming. Similarly, out of the 20 people in my 40K campaign, 1 plays infrequently in tournaments. Just the one. But you can safely ignore my anecdotal evidence. Even I do, given all the other feedback I've heard from professionals in the industry.

 

Tournament players are, for some reason, often very reluctant to admit they're a niche of the niche. (I'm not saying you are, Tenebris. I'm just saying it's something I've seen a lot of.) It's a strange thing; their focus determines their reality, like everyone else, and because they see X dozen/hundred people at tournaments, a lot of them focus on it as The Scene, forgetting the squillions of peeps that play casually, or play intensely with their friends and local gaming clubs.

[Vesper]

Hey AD-B. I remember reading that the first book of your Black Legion series will be released early 2014. Is that true ?

[Prot]

I don't know about you guys, but perhaps I'm rare in that I value the hobby, the background fiction, and the tournament as well as 'funplay' on equal terms.

 

I really do. If I didn't, I would not have played Chaos for 10+ years. I think many of us are in the same boat. It's been a long, long time since we had a codex that was the flavour of the month. I'd date that back to Pete Haines, 9 oblits, 3 Defilers, 1 Lieutenant, and two troops days. That was quite a while ago.

 

So why would most of us still be here? The most competitive Chaos players are not actually Chaos players. They play something else, and just want a drake in their tournament list.... so they just happen to buy enough cultists to let them do that legally (I still curse allies to this day.)

 

There has never been a doubt in my mind that tournament players are the vocal minority. But assuming that is a fact, it doesn't make what they want -wrong- either.

 

I'm reading about Space Marines having true rules to differentiate the various chapters. Something Chaos has been asking about for... oh I don't know... a bazillion years? Simple tactic/special rules/traits.

 

Trust me, I wouldn't have stuck this out this long if I didn't love what Chaos was, how they looked, and what they represent on the tabletop. I think a person can be like me and love many facets of this game and not simply degrade it to its most abusive form, and move on to the next codex.

[Kol Saresk]

Hey, out of curiosity, what was the page count on the Iyanden and Farsight Supplements again?

[Tenebris]

I agree with most of the above, but a few posts below my post I also explained why is it so in my case. For me if I want to play at 40k, or even debate about 40k live, the tournaments are my only way to do so. Clubs are nonexistant, the community while very fluff oriented is even more about tournaments and in the end you want to take your miniatures outside than the only way to actually play with them is in official tournaments, campaigns and leagues...and here we all know how things go. Thunderfire spam, triple Helldrakes, Trevigons, Kantor with Sternguard...so if you are actually capable to win with a fluffy list you are a genius. 

 

So the only times I am able to play is in a form of competitive play. Otherwise it is GW store with twelve years old kids...and even so only twice a week. The problem is that in my zone 40k is a competitive thing, in my region even more so. Thanks the Emperor I play 40k but should I move to Fantasy, which in my case has an even more mature player core, things escalate from competitive to very competitive.

 

Now I have tired time and again to find clubs but even those interested toward forming one are in for the competitive aspect. I guess such is the case all around where is not a major city with lots of players. We who are on the fringe have to rely on tournaments to give us our 40k fix or to actually have some form of 40k community event. 

[Icarsun]

Hey, out of curiosity, what was the page count on the Iyanden and Farsight Supplements again?

Going off the iBooks Store

Codex: CSM - 184pages

Supplement Black Legion - 157pages

 

Codex: Eldar - 214pages

Supplement Iyanden - 121pages

 

Codex: Tau - 183pages

Supplement Farsight Enclave - 132pages

 

So, Black Legion is the largest supplement so far

[A D-B]

Hey AD-B. I remember reading that the first book of your Black Legion series will be released early 2014. Is that true ?

 

Uh. Probably. Sorry, Vespington, I have no idea about release schedules. 

 

I agree with most of the above, but a few posts below my post I also explained why is it so in my case. For me if I want to play at 40k, or even debate about 40k live, the tournaments are my only way to do so. Clubs are nonexistant, the community while very fluff oriented is even more about tournaments and in the end you want to take your miniatures outside than the only way to actually play with them is in official tournaments, campaigns and leagues...and here we all know how things go. Thunderfire spam, triple Helldrakes, Trevigons, Kantor with Sternguard...so if you are actually capable to win with a fluffy list you are a genius. 

 

So the only times I am able to play is in a form of competitive play. Otherwise it is GW store with twelve years old kids...and even so only twice a week. The problem is that in my zone 40k is a competitive thing, in my region even more so. Thanks the Emperor I play 40k but should I move to Fantasy, which in my case has an even more mature player core, things escalate from competitive to very competitive.

 

Now I have tired time and again to find clubs but even those interested toward forming one are in for the competitive aspect. I guess such is the case all around where is not a major city with lots of players. We who are on the fringe have to rely on tournaments to give us our 40k fix or to actually have some form of 40k community event. 

 

Yeah, just to be clear, I want to double-state that I didn't mean "Tenebris, you smell and are wrong." You were very clear about how and why it applied to you, etc. I was just... off-topicking, I guess. My bad.

[Vesper]

 

Hey, out of curiosity, what was the page count on the Iyanden and Farsight Supplements again?

Going off the iBooks Store

Codex: CSM - 184pages

Supplement Black Legion - 157pages

 

Codex: Eldar - 214pages

Supplement Iyanden - 121pages

 

Codex: Tau - 183pages

Supplement Farsight Enclave - 132pages

 

So, Black Legion is the largest supplement so far

Which is awesome !

 

 

 

Uh. Probably. Sorry, Vespington, I have no idea about release schedules.

I must have strayed on the dark side of the Internet I guess. I'll stick with "don't know yet". Cool cover though, Abaddon is pretty scary.

I'll add that I shamelessly stalk your facebook and blog to get any tiny part of info you spill on the novel !

[RolandTHTG]

Eh, Tenebris & AD-B, I think It comes down to the equivalent of the 'meta' that everyone always talks about. Italy is just a very tournament-heavy place. My local area has about 25 'regulars' at the tournaments I go to ocasionally, but I think of an equal number of people (in 2-3 gaming groups) that have never even thought about going to a tournament. I actually go online for my 40k fix, as I generally don't get to attend my local gaming nights because of work schedules.

Edit: Well, Amazon is promising the Book in April next year: Linky

[Brother Ambroz]

 

We want our codex to be fixed, but we don't want the supplement books to do it.  New errata online, replacement rules in White Dwarf, new models for our elite infantry, new transport options from GW or forgeworld - any of these things could provide a reasonable fix to our codex, especially if we saw simultaneous nerfing of the dreaded heldrake.  But this is simply not the kind of thing we want from a supplement book.

 

Mali, I don't really think anyone cares if the fix came from a supplement book. Not that I think it will be fixed, although a few additional rules should and will be nice. Especially in 157 pages, you gotta figure there'll be more in there other than "chosen as troops".

[Gree]

 

 

We want our codex to be fixed, but we don't want the supplement books to do it.  New errata online, replacement rules in White Dwarf, new models for our elite infantry, new transport options from GW or forgeworld - any of these things could provide a reasonable fix to our codex, especially if we saw simultaneous nerfing of the dreaded heldrake.  But this is simply not the kind of thing we want from a supplement book.

 

Mali, I don't really think anyone cares if the fix came from a supplement book. Not that I think it will be fixed, although a few additional rules should and will be nice. Especially in 157 pages, you gotta figure there'll be more in there other than "chosen as troops".

 

Based on previous supplements?

 

I'd guess in addition to Chosen as troops, plus some new Black Legion special characters, a Warlord table and BL-exclusive wargear with scenarios to replay the Black Legion's famous battles. That's probably all we're going to see. That would be more or less consistent with previous supplements, like the Farsight Enclaves.

 

More pages probably means more pages of fluff, which is not a bad thing as the Black Legion need as much as they can get to dispel the whole "Failbaddon" image.

[Sception]

ADB: I might argue with you on the concept of a 'black community', at least within the context of US society & culture.  A considerable history of race-based oppression, and the ongoing systemic racism that is its legacy within the united states has something of a unifying influence.  It is my experience that many black people within the US see themselves as a distinct and separate group, because US society at large has traditionally and continues to today treat them as such.  And this is above and beyond typical cultural markers and practices that have traditionally created and supported 'Irish communities' and 'Chinese communities' and 'Jewish communities' and 'Italian communities' and so on among other ethnic groups.

 

'Race' may not be a real or meaningful thing biologically or genetically, but it is certainly a real thing socially and culturally, especially in the US, where histories of race-based genocide, chattel slavery, and white supremacy are still powerfully reflected in modern conditions and institutions.

 

 

 

More on topic, While the tournament playing subset of the GW fanbase is a minority - a niche of a niche - they are especially vocal and active online.  This shouldn't be surprising, as internet forums and comment boards are a format well suited to debating tactics and optimization and army lists.  They're far better suited to that aspect of the hobby than to any other.  You can post pics of your latest conversion or paint job or a summary of a battle report, and you might get a couple compliments or a tip or two, but then all that there is to say has been said, and the thread quickly falls off the top page.  On the other hand, come onto a board with an argument about how 'heldrakes are broken' or 'possessed suck', and you can spark a debate that might go back and forth for several pages, and stay on the top of the board for days or weeks.

 

The important thing to note is that the visibility of the tournament crowd makes them important for word of mouth, especially in today's world where social media buzz can really matter.  People go online, google things, and seek out discussion when they're making decisions about how to spend their limited leisure time and money.  If they think, say, Tomb Kings or Tyranids or Chaos Marines look cool, but then the online discussion is stagnant and somewhat negative, then they may end up choosing another faction, or worse skipping the game entirely.

 

So while I agree that the tournament crew is a fraction of a fraction, they're still a fairly important subset of the community that GW would do well to cater to, much as wizards caters to the tournament community in magic the gathering.

[Rayray]

Not only are tournament players niche, mal, but they buy a set amount of product that will "win" them prize support, which generates GW a lot less to no revanue from said tournament players. Fluff players have a tendency to collect, causing them to spend money continuously so long as decent models come out, usually regardless of rules. So catering to tournament players seems slightly silly.

[Tenebris]

On the GW site they have put up the presentation of the Supplement. The only thing worth notice is that the author writes that the supplement will contain advanced rules for the Chaos Terminators...

 

...please o Dark Gods, make my terminators troops, please oh please, I will be good and sacrifice you a thousand souls every day for it...