Vulkan Lives

[Conn Eremon]

I have to say, I like this idea that the Night Lords are all about the stage. It adds an interesting quirk. On one hand, it shows they have no limits and are unapologetic. On the other hand, it's a cry for attention and approval.

[Greyall]

In Prince of Crows, Sevatar, who is already a larger-than-life character and exceptional at what he does, went up to eleven and seemed to always talk as if someone was watching. Don't know if this near-break of the 4th wall was intended by ADB, but Sevvy does have his cup of crazy every morning. I mean, even when talking to Curze his sarcasm felt clearly made to cause someone to laugh. Which makes sense, Sevatar is the best character for an author to write "closer" to the readers, since the Night Lord's view of the conflict is rather detached already (like a viewer's/reader's).

[godking]

Kurze is the biggest disapointment  and waste of a Primarch traitor or loyalist.

 

He failed at everything that he set out to do and every ''lesson'' that he wanted to teach.

 

Nostromo did not fail Kurze Kurze failed Nostromo.

 

Angron at least has a valid excuse (you can argue that angron is the only traitor with a legitimate reason to rebel).

 

Kurze has nobody to blame but his own stubborness.

[Adra'Melek]

I don't know. I think it could be blamed on the murderous cesspit of a nursery he was brought up in.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, here's something for everyone to jump in on.

 

 

Now, recently WoT and I just happened to come across discussing this topic. For everyone who has read the book, we know that at least at one point, Vulkan wakes up to find that a coven of Davinite priests had been force feeding him images and experiences.

 

My personal opinion is that only the escape and eventual fight, both with Corax were the vision due to the line that ends the Chapter 'You are not noble. You are no better than me,' he muttered, before killing me again. Now, I believe that the Corax-fight/escape was the only vision because in that scene, Vulkan only reacts about the fight with Corax. He doesn't show any concern about Nemetor(which he did before), it was the first scene since the Emperor started appearing that Vulkan did not see him and it was the first time we do not see Ferrus either. Both Ferrus and the Emperor make appearances in the Labyrinth and when Vulkan finds Nemetor's body, he says that it was the last of his sons that he set eyes on.

 

Now, Vulkan believed that seeing Nemetor when he was trapped in the machine was the last time he saw Nemetor before finding his body. Which means that Vulkan does not believe that the machine-puppet was a vision from the Davinites. Also, when Vulkan first goes into the maze, he is shown a hololith of Nemetor. In it, he can see that Nemetor is severely injured. Now, by the time he reaches the center of the maze(we don't know how long that is), he gets there only to find Nemetor bled out. no sign of decay is described. That either means the environmental systems in the Labyrinth are perfect for preserving bodies, or Nemetor hasn't been dead too long. So, to me, all of this points to Vulkan actually experiencing everything except the fight with Corax.

 

Part of Nick Kyme's portrayal of Curze is that he is always offering Vulkan some small, sliver of hope before taking it away. Very old school, but then again, some of the best tortures are.

 

 

And in order to not misquote WoT:

WoT, on 12 Aug 2013 - 11:04, said:

 

 

Kol_Saresk, on 12 Aug 2013 - 10:52, said:

 

 

WoT, on 12 Aug 2013 - 10:33, said:

 

 

Kol_Saresk, on 12 Aug 2013 - 10:30, said:

 

Really, it is a spoiler. From Vulkan Lives.

At one point in Vulkan Lives, Curze tries to torment Vulkan by having him sit at a table filled with rotten food. Seated around the table are several humans who have had their hands replaced with forks and knives. The utensils are too long for them to eat with, but they try anyway. Vulkan realizes this and tells them to feed each other. He starts yelling because they aren't listening. At that point, Curze "appears"(it is unknown if he arrived or if he just made himself known) and tells Vulkan that they were blinded and deafened. Vulkan tells him to kill him. Curze says that he already has, multiple times and that Vulkan just won't stay dead. Curze gets angry, rips the fork off of one of the humans and tears open Vulkan's chest with it. Vulkan "dies".

 

 

 

 

The psychic interrogation(s) were only with the fight with Corax though. Everything else was real. That's why the fight was the only time Vulkan didn't see the Emperor or Ferrus.

 

But that was a psychic vision though, made by the Davinite Priests

 

 

No, the fight with Corax was the vision. Since Vulkan isn't killed since the psykers die, there woul be no reason for him to believe his immortal after that. But he does and so does Curze. That means that Curze has actually tried to kill him before and since Vulkan believes it, it means he has experienced a death outside of the psychic visions. Those deaths were the airlock, the incinerator and the cutlery.

 

 

I don't think so, every time the "emperor" shows up is when he's being psychically tortured, this is during him being encased in the machine, attached to the blocks that squash the people and during the dinner scene. The airlock and incinerator truly happened, but the others were just visions implanted by the priests.

 

 

So what are your guys' opinions?

[Emperor's Furor]

Nemetor was also the final figure he saw on Istvaan as well I believe.

 

 

See the reason I think most of his torturing was vision (exclude the furnace and airlock) was down to two things

 

1. The Emperor kept showing up as actual figures within the vision, it's entirely possible the Emperor with his power could slide into the vision sequence to give Vulkan hope.

 

2. Vulkans mental ability was being broken down, not just because of the abuse but also the psychic proping he was suffering, no amount of physical abuse could be enough for Vulkan to decline mentally so far, it had to be due to psychic abuse.

 

That's why all those scenes I believe were psychic visions, it would also explain how stupid things like a fork to the chest could kill a Primarch...heck Lorgar took a lightning claw to the chest and survived.

 

[Kol Saresk]

 

Hmm, in the maze, he recognizes Nemetor and says that he thought he was dead. IIRC, the last time Nemetor was mentioned in the Isstvan V flashbacks was right after the Death Guard had gased the 15th Reconnaisance Company in the trenches. It was a similar thing with Skatar'var as well. The flashbacks also show that the last thing Vulkan would have seen was that shell launched by the Iron Warriors.

 

I think this might end up being another "Schroedinger's box" until Nick Kyme says something about it or something more concrete is published.

 

[Emperor's Furor]

 

Hmm, in the maze, he recognizes Nemetor and says that he thought he was dead. IIRC, the last time Nemetor was mentioned in the Isstvan V flashbacks was right after the Death Guard had gased the 15th Reconnaisance Company in the trenches. It was a similar thing with Skatar'var as well. The flashbacks also show that the last thing Vulkan would have seen was that shell launched by the Iron Warriors.

 

I think this might end up being another "Schroedinger's box" until Nick Kyme says something about it or something more concrete is published.

 

 

Didn't Vulkan have nemetor in his hands, like when on the front cover?

 

[Kol Saresk]

Not that I've seen. All the Istvaan V flash backs are from Numeon's POV and Vulkan just says that he thought he was dead without giving reason why. And the last time Numeon says he saw Vulkan was right before the artillery shell hit. When he came to, the Salamanders were scattered, Leodrakk was holding Ska's gauntlet and one of Vulcan's sigils had landed next to him. From there, he makes his escape with the Morlock Pergellen.

[godking]

I don't know. I think it could be blamed on the murderous cesspit of a nursery he was brought up in.

He is a Primarch and a Psyker at that with his basic abilities he should have done more.

 

Other then if you do bad i will hunt you down and skin your children alive he brought nothing to Nostromo.

 

Kurze ruled for decades on Nostromo before the arrival of the emperor and did'nt really do anything.

 

Kurze could see the future and did nothing to change wether one can change his fate or not Kurze never tried to do so opting to die a meaningless death.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually Curze brought quite a bit. When the Imperium arrived, the entire system was considered the model of Imperium efficiency. Nostramo mined adamantium which was then shipped to and used by the other planets. It actually wasn't until the Emperor arrived that Curze realized his "dreams" were actually visions since the first ones were about the Emperor arriving. The rest were about things like the Heresy and Luther's rebellion. His visions were of events so far away and so obscure that there was no way to know they were true until they were happening. Even Malcharion in Soul Hunter said that not all of Curze's came true, meaning that either he misinterpreted, or events happened(or didn't happen) that prevented the visions from coming true.

 

EDIT: I wouldn't say this makes him a role model but he sort of did prove the theory that when the cat is the house, you have a well-behaved mouse.

[Augustus]

Thing is with Curze, where are all the frightened kids that's didn't join gangs or commit heinous acts that then went on to join the Legion as upstanding citizens of Nostramo? There should be quite a few, right?

[Kol Saresk]

If the Terrans in the Night Lords are anything to go by, they adapted. Or died. Although if someone like Malcharion the War-Sage could survive the change in wind, it is possible others could as well.

[Conn Eremon]

Wait, Curze foresees the Fallen?

[Kol Saresk]

It is heavily hinted that is what he and the Lion talked about in Savage Weapons. So I guess the proper way to put it is that he saw a bad moon rising on the Lion's future.

[depthcharge12]

It is heavily hinted that is what he and the Lion talked about in Savage Weapons. So I guess the proper way to put it is that he saw a bad moon rising on the Lion's future.

 

Huh. so thats what it was...I was really curious as to what was said.

 

Did you just figure that out or was it hinted to in one of the other NL/DA shorts? (I havent read prince of crows yet or lightning tower)

[Kol Saresk]

Umm, I think The Lion also said something about it. I'm not sure, I only have Vulkan Lives and a Dresden Files book with me so I can't check. I know I got the idea from somewhere and it wasn't one of my very rare eureka! Moments. Seriously, they're like one in twenty million.

[Conn Eremon]

>Dresden Files book

 

You, good sir, have your priorities straight.

[depthcharge12]

Hahaha

I know how Kol would deal with those Nazis if he was a Night lord.....

[Kol Saresk]

Nazis? I recall necromancers, daemons and nickelheads(oh my!) but not Nazis.......

[Scribe]

The parts with Cruze where my favorite sections.

 

The thing with his 'gift' is that you have to remember it was only negative visions he ever saw. He didnt see a positive future, he saw only his own death, and the deaths of those he met.

 

If anything in this book, we are shown that a Primarch CAN break mentally. Vulkan is nearly there, instead of realizing his situation and adapting to it in some fashion.

 

 

 

As for the 'visions' only the escape and fight with Corax imo. Everything else happened, and Ferrus was a  symtom of his (Vulkans) psychosis over the guilt over Istvaan V. PTSD is a bit of a theme in the book actually.

 

 

[spu00sed]

I mostly enjoyed the novel, though it did seem short and didnt feel like it really added anything greatly to the overall heresy story. It's main point could have been covered differently. The two separate threads could easily have been novallias in themselves.

 

My favourite parts were

 

 

Vulcan wishing to be a farmer after the crusades are over. Maybe he is. He might have spent the last 10 thousand years travelling the imperium and explaining to locals the best way to stop weeds from ruining their crops

 

The word bearer who didnt want to believe in the new creed. To me his logic was

We blindly worshipped the emperor as a god and found out we were wrong to do so. New we are worshipping someone else blindly.

 

 

[Greyall]

More spoils.

 

Seems a given that characters other than the Primarchs aren't that well fleshed-out, but someone tell me a bit more about Numeon. I recall him being described in Promethean as wearing a lot of tribal trophies.

 

He's the Pyreguard Captain, so he should be properly skilled. Is he?

[Emperor's Furor]

He's not really in any situations to fully show himself tbh Istvaan was mayhem and the planet he's on in the book is very covert like, a lot of shooting not much hand to hand.

[Greyall]

Pity...damn, Salamander fans are getting it even harsher than Iron Hands'. Vulkan lives, aye, but Lizzie Marines don't...