Vulkan Lives

[Greyall]

More and more I doubt Vulkan survives the Heresy. Since his post-Heresy story is just so fuzzy and incomplete, I'd hold no grudge towards BL for having him die during the Heresy and retconning the current fluff. Just give him an awesome swan song - I'm thinking 'In my time of dying' awesome.

[Emperor's Furor]

He shouldn't die, the balance of alive or unknown surviving primarchs compared to surviving traitor primarchs is already tipped massively in the traitors favour.

[Greyall]

True, but loyalists win in the end, even though this whole thing started with the traitors just running over the good guys. So this should be as phyrric a victory as possible, me thinks.

 

It's not that I want Vulkan to die, the guy's awesome. But right now he's just another of those 'misteriously vanished' Primarchs, it gets a bit boring, especially since the likes of Guilliman have such an awesome story - even though they're basically dead.

[Emperor's Furor]

 

Yeah but if we go a long with he's a perpetual then it means the salamanders task of trying to find their primarchs is true for once, rather than a goal that can never be achieved, for once we can imagine Vulkan is sitting somewhere with his own little hammer and anvil or farming or something and he's not just another guy whose in the eye of terror, as he's a perpetual he can live a life similar to Ollanius Pius.

 

[Greyall]

Awesomely pointed, mate, I agree with you.

[Emperor's Furor]

 

If someone is going to die though I can't see it being anyone else apart from maybe John Grammaticus himself.

 

[Greyall]

Absolutely

 

 

Vulkan dying by sneaky stabbing would be a major downer. But wasn't something hinted around the lines of Grammaticus getting help to perform the killing? From someone in Macragge?

 

[Emperor's Furor]

Absolutely

 

 

Vulkan dying by sneaky stabbing would be a major downer. But wasn't something hinted around the lines of Grammaticus getting help to perform the killing? From someone in Macragge?

 

 

Yeah another Primarch apparently, maybe the weapon John tries to use on Vulkan is used on him instead?

 

[Kol Saresk]

More and more I doubt Vulkan survives the Heresy. Since his post-Heresy story is just so fuzzy and incomplete, I'd hold no grudge towards BL for having him die during the Heresy and retconning the current fluff. Just give him an awesome swan song - I'm thinking 'In my time of dying' awesome.

Before the whole "4Chan Revelation" was lost in the corrupted data, A D-B came out and said that he had once asked if he could write zvulkan's death. IIRC, he said he was told Vulkan was never going to die. Officially, at any rate.

[Greyall]

 

Yeah another Primarch apparently, maybe the weapon John tries to use on Vulkan is used on him instead?

 

 

 

Not sure I follow. I meant help in killing Vulkan, but for one of the other loyalist Primarchs to help kill a brother would be an absolute shock. Never mind said Primarch surviving for the rest of the Heresy as a good guy

 

 

@Kol_Saresk: That's heartwarming, though my fears/predictions made sense due to all the mind-shattering suffering Vulkan has gone through - and is yet to get.

 

Unremembered Empire will probably be a milestone in the Heresy Novels. I suspect it'll set the course for the future and change our view of certain Primarchs radically. Also, Ultramarines haters shall pour forth threads unending...

[KJB]

Yeah, A-DB said he was asked to write a novella about Vulkan, he said he would only if he could kill Vulkan off - He then finished his post with "that novella will never be made - make of that what you will..."

 

So yeah, he lives...

[Greyall]

What the hell is it with authors trying to [perma] kill the Heresy's most loveable Primarch (who still orders an entire population decimated - yay future!)? Vulkan's perhaps the last bastion for all the ten or twenty beings in 30K who have a conscience and so far he's seen his brother killed, half of his brothers try to kill him and his father as well as the rest of his brothers, been tortured and killed by the greatest psychopath turned king ever, been trapped in a labyrinth without being able to tell reality from illusion.

 

Well, at least it would've surely been awesome, so no rage from me, I meant the above rant as good-humored. It's just interesting to see how Vulkan's nature sparks all manner of blood-filled ideas.

[Emperor's Furor]

 

 

Yeah another Primarch apparently, maybe the weapon John tries to use on Vulkan is used on him instead?

 

 

 

Not sure I follow. I meant help in killing Vulkan, but for one of the other loyalist Primarchs to help kill a brother would be an absolute shock. Never mind said Primarch surviving for the rest of the Heresy as a good guy

 

 

@Kol_Saresk: That's heartwarming, though my fears/predictions made sense due to all the mind-shattering suffering Vulkan has gone through - and is yet to get.

 

Unremembered Empire will probably be a milestone in the Heresy Novels. I suspect it'll set the course for the future and change our view of certain Primarchs radically. Also, Ultramarines haters shall pour forth threads unending...

 

 

Yep, John says he doubts any of Vulkan's brothers would be queueing up to do it, the eldar guy then says you'd be surprised. If those 4chan rumours are true, it could mean Curze had followed the lion to macragge and it maybe him whose involved.

 

[Greyall]

 

Oh, right, Curze's still hiding in the Dark Angels' ship. I thought the eldar was referring to one of the loyalists.

 

[lilMAC25]

He shouldn't die, the balance of alive or unknown surviving primarchs compared to surviving traitor primarchs is already tipped massively in the traitors favour.

 

 

Agreed.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, let me say this. Most of the things concerning what the 4chan post said about Unremembered Empire, can be found in the thread by the same name. A lot of those "spoilers" aren't really spoilers. They are rumors and speculations that have been collected from anywhere and everywhere. Heck, there was even a "spoiler" collected from Warseer that says almost the exact same thing. From the cover alone, we had already been able to place the Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, and White Scars/Space Wolves(armor was really really dirty) making an appearance. As far as what happens, there is just the synopsis which can be found at Amazon.com. It follows As:

 

"Believing Terra has already fallen to the Warmaster, Primarch Roboute Guilliman founds the Imperium Secundus.

 

The unthinkable has happened – Terra has fallen to the traitor forces of Warmaster Horus! Nothing else could explain the sudden disappearance of the Astronomican’s guiding light at the heart of the Imperium, or so Roboute Guilliman would believe. Ever the pragmatist, he has drawn all his forces to Ultramar and begun construction of the new empire known as Imperium Secundus. Even with many of his primarch brothers at his side, he still faces war from without and intrigue from within – with the best of intentions, were the full truth to be known it would likely damn them all as traitors for all eternity."

 

That tells us that there is more than just Sanguinius there. Since The Lion ends with the Lion - ba dump bump ching - thinking about heading to Ultramar soon and the fights being described in Prince of Crows as the second and third fights between the Lion and the Night Haunter, it becomes logical to assume it takes place after Sevatar's novella. Since Vulkan Lives ends most likely before Savage Weapons, that leaves a relatively huge gap of time for Vulkan to get to Macragge, if he didn't teleport there. But he most likely arrived after the events of Know No Fear and Betrayer.

 

So it becomes logical to believe that Vulkan is indeed there. Especially since Nick Kyme himself said that Vulkan Lives leads up into Unremembered Empire. 

 

Sorry, if I seem agitated. It's just a lot of the things the 4Chan "spoiler" supposedly revealed are mostly things that had been "figured out" in the Unremembered Empire thread starting on page like 5 or 6. So in a way, it just feels like I'm repeating myself. To me, they really are not "spoilers" because they have already been confirmed or they are simply a matter of speculation in order to draw those exact same conclusions.

 

But seriously, just skim through the Unremembered Empire thread. You'll probably to come up with a much more cohesive picture than what the "4Chan Gospel" will ever give you.

 

Especially since a lot of those speculations have either been proven right or wrong thanks to the release of Vulkan Lives. I know more than a few of mine were.

[Greyall]

Your reaction is understandable, but my post was based on a part of that synopsis, specifically:

 

"...were the full truth to be known it would likely damn them all as traitors for all eternity"

 

The rest is indeed nothing too new, barring the thing about Vulkan dying/living.

 

My point still stands, Unremembered Empire will be a milestone. At least it better be.

[Emperor's Furor]

I'm worried about the supposed big death, I'm just hoping it's not Vulkan.

[Greyall]

If it is

Grammaticus

, by now it's also a pretty big death. And a bit more plausible.

[Kol Saresk]

Your reaction is understandable, but my post was based on a part of that synopsis, specifically:

 

"...were the full truth to be known it would likely damn them all as traitors for all eternity"

 

The rest is indeed nothing too new, barring the thing about Vulkan dying/living.

 

My point still stands, Unremembered Empire will be a milestone. At least it better be.

I wasn't necessarily aiming at you, or anyone else specifically, it was just the whole "4Chan Gospel" thing just really got up in my head and so I just vented. I was trying to attack anyone or anything. I apologize to everyone.

 

But agreed, Grammaticus' death would actually seem more plausible since his form of immortality, seems to revolve around someone reviving him. Likehe said, he tought he had finally managed to kill himself when he walked out of the airlock, but then the Cabal gave him a new body. Out all of the Perpetuals seen so far, he seems the most...... Fragile.

[Kais Klip]

Regarding the knife meant for Vulkan, do we know where Fulgrim gets the knife he shaves Guilliman with?

And regarding primarchs getting killed off, despite my fondness for them, I really believe we are losing that grimdark edge with so many attachable characters being spared. Don't get me wrong, I'd be as pissed as the next guy when the next Manus/Cyrene happens, but if the traitor primarchs sacrifice their humanity during the war the loyalists should pay a bigger price to justify the "win". My main point is that I always imagined the outcome of the war as an extremely pyrric victory, to the point of "stopping the enemy winning" as the Big E put it, but at this point if it wasn't so written in stone I'd expect the Emperor to come out of Horus' flagship with a hobble. When I entered the background almost a decade or so ago well established names were killed off, and now it seems everyone who makes it past a chapter has "plot armour", for all my dislike of the word.

Point is, I'm pro-loyalist so I'm not butthurt, but I would be very pleased if the loyalists started paying in blood that matters to justify their "win", rather numbers being thrown around and labelled atrocities. At this point I'm not exactly hearing that "laughter of the thirsting gods".

As it is with the Blood God so it is with the grimdark stamp; Names have meaning, numbers do not.

Pardon the ramble.

Edit: perhaps its my memory, but what recent "tragic" deaths spring to mind? Tarik Torgaddon is ancient history now, Cyrene was definitely one, oh hell yes despite that fanatisism, but that was stolen from us ( at the same time as ). All I have is that guy in Know No Fear who dies on the hill, Honorius (?) Luciel on the ship (though only for the quality of death) and their set up barely filled a handful of paragraphs.

Edit: just remembered, Death of a Silversmith was a saving grace for me. And Gal Vorbak boy. Again, I reckon losses like these should be the norm, rather than surprises.

Moar Edits: Thinking more about it, "loyalist" seems a bit like the Ultramarine side of things. A bit vanilla and drab on the side of things, and I've been sticking to 30k/40k to escape that. Wouldn't it be great if the mentioning of "oh I'm loyalist" heralded sucked in breaths and "you really got it handed to ya didn't you" remarks rather than how it is for just say, Iron Hands? The traitor primarchs shouldn't be sniffed at like they so often are with remarks of them being weak willed and two dimensional, rather the loyalists should rue that their side didn't take the shortcut and thus paid for their choice like the Emperor did, and he was imbued with the opposite of chaos if anything. The route that many of the traitors took was the shortcut for power and victory, and so far we haven't seen what exactly they avoided that the loyalists and unaffiliated traitor primarchs decided to face. It's a hell of an opinionated ramble, but so far nothing that the loyalists paid really equals what the traitors truly gave up, for all their boons.

I'm yearning for a foldout series epilogue Victorus aut Mortis page that holds more names than the series Dramatica Persona.

[Conn Eremon]

I can get behind that, Kais, though I don't think things are as dire as you say. Some, like Loken, are a bit much. But they seem rather rare, to me. It's like Argel Tal. Earlier, it felt like he had plot armor. Doing things, surviving things. But it was superficial. He hadn't been offed yet because he was supposed to be offed somewhere else. We're seeing that situation across the board.

[Kais Klip]

It was a bit of an emotional rather than coherent post, and I'm not asking for game of thrones with bolters, just that the series has swerved away from the tragedy motif of the first trilogy and all the big words of the preamble introduction. I do admit I'm also quite rankled by the insistent uppityness I've noticed recently spread around, and that each side and each side within that side that 40k is so well known for should have a grand downside to temper the types seeking the "win-button" side. 

 

And yes my memory has been quite faulty, since the First Heretic pretty much nailed the grimdark level I'm yearning for. 

[Kol Saresk]

I think there was a purpose to Cyrene though. A lot of people were "Perpetuals=Sensei" and then BAM! You get this girl. She's from another planet the Emperor has never even been to until He turned it into an example. She's not psychic. She's blind, literally. No connection to the Emperor.

 

And, I think she also serves another purpose. Cyrene was fanatical. She believed in Lorgar. She believed in Argel Tal. She believed in Chaos. but then she died. And when she came back, we see that she meet the "gods" she was willing to worship. And she didn't like it. Her faith met the object of her worship and it did not survive, at least not intact.

 

I don't know if it was intentional, but faith seems to have a theme in Betrayer.

[Kais Klip]

See that would be completely satisfying if it were true, and I get what its like to get attached to a character you've spent so much time fleshing out, but I really think Cyrene's resurrection wasn't planned from the beginning (although as if anything is). Part of me also thinks that Grammaticus was originaly the only perpetual planned for the series, and the others just jumped at the opportunity. Though I would love to get shot down for these assumptions, I'm not seeking an answer wherever they were or werent , but I'm terrified of what will happen if epicly tragic deaths that define the series, like that of Gal Vorbak boy get brought back, I might just line up a truck-full order of ikea tables and spend the evening flipping them.