Lehesu Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 How unusual would it be to have a chapter that believes the Emperor is a god? Not just a god, but a god that retreated into apotheosis in disgust with humanity over the whole horus heresy thing and who watches mankind to this day waiting for it to finally get its :cuss together so that he can return in glory to fulfill mankind's manifest destiny? Would this just be another weird chapter cult that everybody else takes in stride? Or would this be cause for a "Purge the Heretics!" style bloodletting?How could such a chapter cult get going? If an early chapter master/chaplain/librarian claimed the Emperor told him all of this was true in a vision, would this cause a "Purge the Heretics!" style bloodletting from the rest of the Imperium?I know the Ecclesiarchy generally gives the Astartes a wide berth when it comes to theological beliefs, but how much room are we talking about here? Basically, I'm interested in creating a chapter of religious zealots who believe that most of the Imperium is comprised of :cuss-ups who need to get their :cuss together so the Emperor can come back, but I'm not sure how long such an attitude would be allowed to exist by the rest of the Imperium. If it isn't plausible, I'll have to rejigger the conceit. Any thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 Would this just be another weird chapter cult that everybody else takes in stride? Or would this be cause for a "Purge the Heretics!" style bloodletting?A. Visions are lazy writing. Trust me, find another way (gradual, creeping ennui would probably work). Very workable, I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3412868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Sirus Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 If you used the same idea as the blood ravens possibly being a successor from 1ksons but used the word bearers for example very possible in belief system and then their entire existence and origin would be by taboo, lots of cloak and dagger affairs staying under the radar but constantly being sought by the inquisition and others. That's my input sorry if is a bit OTT for what you're after but its an option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3412891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 My personal take on this is that most chapters created after the Age of Apostasy and most certainly the recent ones for the past two millennia surely profess the Imperial Creed rather the Imperial Truth. After the uprisings and the usurping of the Ecclesiarchy this religious ogranization has become the dominant one in the Imperium, dominant to such a degree that like it or not without the blessings of the many cardinals, deacons, bishops and the likes hardly anything is run in the IoM. The astartes are no exception to this I dare say. It is very hard to profess any kind of secular truth so far in the Imperium history. The Chapter Cult is one thing but I find such a creed ever more in line with the professed doctrines, the thousands of them, of the Ecclesiarchy and ever more removed from the rational outlook of the many chapters who have been founded in the early era of the Imperium. So if there was a ration 1-3 of Creed vs Truth chapters pre Apostasy I assume that the nowadays ratio is 3-1 for Creed vs Secular Truth chapters. It is only logical for politics and economics apply even to the space marines and if you want to float in the Imperium of the grimdark M41 you have to be at least in line with the Ecclesiarchy. On the other side a marine is mentally engineered from day one so at least 2/3 of the religious notions have been implanted into them via indoctrination and hypnotherapy. The ritual and the custom are than only needed to be observed by the Chaplains and whoila' you have a bionegineered fanatical zealot who kills at your command. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3412926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 The Ecclesiarchy begins to gain power at the beginning of m.32, by 700.m32 the Ecclesiarch has a permanent place on the High Lords. The power of this org continues to grow over the following millennia, rising to a peak before Vandire comes to power. After his reign ends, the Adeptus Terra seems to reassert its authority. My Emperor worshipping DIY, the Emperor's Blade, was founded during the time when the Ecclesiarchy was at the peak of its influence. Their first mission is to lead a Crusade army made up of countless priests, pilgrims, etc against the Word Bearers of the Maelstrom and as the fighting progresses the Chapter begins recruiting from the myriad 'faithful' children born to the vast crusade. Then the Chapter's first Chaplain dies in battle and the first Chapter Master comes to rely on the Ecclesiarchy priests/confessors/etc to care for the spiritual needs of his Marines. All this serves to bring the Chapters beliefs closer to the rest of the Imperium. It's a bit of a run of coincidences. Or possibly not. I'm considering rewriting some of the IA to hint at a lot of those coincidences (and even the death of the Chaplain) as being the work of a cunning, power hungry Eccelsiarch attempting to create his own personal Chapter! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3412940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lehesu Posted August 6, 2013 Author Share Posted August 6, 2013 Would this just be another weird chapter cult that everybody else takes in stride? Or would this be cause for a "Purge the Heretics!" style bloodletting?A. Visions are lazy writing. Trust me, find another way (gradual, creeping ennui would probably work). Very workable, I think. Okay, visions bad. Got it. How about I have the original chapter master spend a lot of time with an inquisitor, perhaps due to a chapter oath granting the inquisitor an astartes retinue? As the inquisitor is faced with the terrors of the galaxy, he falls further into puritan monodominance, viewing mankind as largely unworthy of the Emperor's grace. Our intrepid future chapter master, of course, takes some notes, adds a couple of twists, and then imports this into the creed of his new chapter. After the uprisings and the usurping of the Ecclesiarchy this religious ogranization has become the dominant one in the Imperium, dominant to such a degree that like it or not without the blessings of the many cardinals, deacons, bishops and the likes hardly anything is run in the IoM. The astartes are no exception to this I dare say. Good points, but I am interested in creating a chapter that believes the Emperor is god, but that the Ecclesiarchy has lost its way. While it is good for at least spreading the faith to those ignorant of the Emperor, the church leadership is ossified; too reliant on dogma and musty tomes and too concerned with holding onto power and building giant cathedrals than actually doing the work of the emperor. That men even need cathedrals and pretty statutes to believe in the Emperor shows how unworthy mankind really is. If this chapter had its way, most of the bishops and cardinals and archdeacons would have a bolt in their heads. Hell, this chapter barely tolerates the first founding chapters, since they were the ones to make such a mess of the Great Crusade, mankind's best chance at fulfilling its destiny as granted by the Emperor. They like going on wars of faith but the Ecclesiarchy tries to avoid inviting them because they start co-opting frateris militia. They have a bad tendency to purge all of the icons and valuables when they recapture cathedrals, claiming that they have been corrupted in association with the occupying heretics. In reality, they just like burning expensive pretty things the Ecclesiarchy owns because they don't think the Ecclesiarchy should even be wasting money on expensive pretty things. Basically, I'm trying to layer on the religious craziness as thick as possible without becoming too over-the-top. I mean, a sect of the Imperial Creed that believes the church leadership should be shot in the head would surely be purged as heretical, right? Does it make enough of a differences that an entire chapter of astartes believes it instead? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3413117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ioldanach Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 There are several official chapters that follow some form of the Imperial Cult (e.g., Fire Angels). There are also chapters whose cults are more "normal" for the Adeptus Astartes (i.e., Emperor was a man), but whose cults also incorporate visions and such (e.g., Mortifactors). The chapter cults are many and varied, and the Imperial Cult is not homogenous. I don't see any reason why there can't be a chapter such as the one described in the OP, and I definitely disagree with any notion that such a concept might be "lazy writing." The cult described sounds like nothing more than a variation on the Thorianism, or maybe a less specific version of resurrectionism, coupled with a form of Adeptus Astartes aloofness. The setting of the game is that of a galaxy on the brink of darkness, filled with apocalyptic beliefs and (false?) beacons of hope. The OP's concept sounds like something unusual, but it fits in perfectly well with the setting. On that, some might view a chapter with such beliefs as being divergent; and some of a more strict bent might even view such beliefs as heretical (especially those who fall into the camps of either a strict view of the Emperor as a man or a view that resurrectionism is hopeless), but there are more than enough others with similarly apocalyptic and/or resurrectionist views that such a chapter wouldn't be considered heretical. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3414823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 I don't see any reason why there can't be a chapter such as the one described in the OP, and I definitely disagree with any notion that such a concept might be "lazy writing."You don't see why the chapter changing its philosophical outlook based on a mystic vision is pretty much the easy way out when it comes to motivations? I called the idea of a vision prompting it lazy writing, not the concept itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3414953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 My White Hand Chapter see the Emperor as a god, but they come from WordBearer geneseed .... so it makes sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3415158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lehesu Posted August 11, 2013 Author Share Posted August 11, 2013 Okay, I've ginned up a little theological background for my zealot marines. Please let me know if these beliefs are getting a little implausible. Also, I'm not completely sold on the chapter name either. Any thoughts? The Emperor's Heralds The Emperor's Heralds are among the most zealous proponents of the Emperor's divinity, bringing a fundamentalist view of the Imperial Creed to unbelievers through blood and flame. Though undeniably fanatical in fighting the enemies of the Imperium, the extreme religious views espoused by the Emperor's Heralds makes them unpredictable allies at best. At their worst, the Emperor's Heralds are as eager to purge their allies of the spiritually weak as they are to fight the enemies of the Imperium. There Is Only The Emperor According to the Emperor's Heralds, the Emperor has existed as a god since the dawn of time, slowly sheperding mankind toward its destiny as masters of the universe. The Great Crusade was to be the culmination of this destiny, when the Emperor deigned to take human form to lead his chosen people to their ultimate fate. On the cusp of victory, Horus, the Great Betrayer, rejected the Emperor and mankind's destiny, leading half the Primarchs into rebellion. Though the Emperor could have extinguished Horus and his traitorous followers at any time, the Emperor instead acted with restraint, wisely recognizing that only of its own free will could mankind come to truly rule the stars. The Emperor retreated into seclusion, watching as Primarch fought Primarch for the soul of mankind. When at last the final battle for Terra arrived and Horus struck down his brother Sanguinius, the Emperor appeared to Horus to beseech him to turn from his path of destruction. He did this not as a god, though he could have crushed Horus's will at any point, but as a mere mortal, a father speaking to an errant son. As Horus moved to strike him down, the Emperor realized that mankind was still unready, too petty and filled with pride. As Horus landed what he thought to be a fatal blow, the Emperor released His grip on His mortal shell to retreat into the heavens. Horus, overcome with sorrow and despair over what he had done, dealt himself a grievous wound that would have killed him had his lieutenants not carried him off. According to the Emperor's Heralds, the Emperor still watches mankind to this day, waiting for humanity to prove worthy of the destiny He has set for it. Purge the Weak The Emperor's Heralds believe that the Great Crusade was the high water mark of humanity, the greatest chance for mankind to grasp its destiny and rule the galaxy. The Great Crusade's failure was an unforgivable mistake, and the Emperor's Heralds harbor a bitter hatred for the traitor legions and the forces of chaos. More unusually, the Emperor's Heralds also hold little more than contempt for the First Founding Chapters and the original Primarchs. For it was their inability to stop Horus before he reached Terra that ultimately doomed the Great Crusade. Indeed, their failure would have resulted in the destruction of humanity were it not for the Emperor's intervention and Horus's last great act of contrition. The Emperor's Heralds thus recognize no Primarch as their gene-father, claiming ignorance of their origins. If pressed on the issue, a battle-brother is likely to say he is only a son of the Emperor. The Emperor's Heralds also avoid contact with the First Founding chapters, hiding their disdain behind a stiffly formal veneer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3417926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 . . . Emperor's Heralds just makes me think of the Imperial Heralds, who are later known as the Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3418004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lehesu Posted August 11, 2013 Author Share Posted August 11, 2013 . . . Emperor's Heralds just makes me think of the Imperial Heralds, who are later known as the Word Bearers. Yeah, its not a name that I am particularly pleased with. Should be changed as soon as I come up with something suitably inspiring. Any suggestions? Also, did not know the Word Bearers had a previous name. The more you learn... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3418011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Aye, and they're not the only ones. War Hounds became the World Eaters. The Dusk Raiders became the Death Guard. Heralds are a good name, though. I'd just go for some thing other than Emperor's. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3418018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aradiel Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 the first -> dark angels, luna wolves -> sons of horus -> black legion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3418046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Heralds of Terra, Throne Heralds Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3418173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lehesu Posted August 12, 2013 Author Share Posted August 12, 2013 Heralds of Terra, Throne Heralds I actually really like the Heralds of Terra name. The only other one I've come up with is Heralds of Triumph, which might be appropriate since the chapter believes that it is at the forefront of the effort to purify humanity for the Emperor's eventual return and inevitable victory. Heralds of Terra sound less presumptuous, though. Hmmmmm...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3418826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 . . . Emperor's Heralds just makes me think of the Imperial Heralds, who are later known as the Word Bearers. Well, everything else he typed shouts Word Bearers too ... so it kinda makes sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3419372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lehesu Posted August 12, 2013 Author Share Posted August 12, 2013 . . . Emperor's Heralds just makes me think of the Imperial Heralds, who are later known as the Word Bearers. Well, everything else he typed shouts Word Bearers too ... so it kinda makes sense. Making a carbon-copy of the Word Bearers is certainly not my intent. I haven't read nearly all the Horus Heresy novels yet, but my impression of the Word Bearers is that they are big on religious texts, icons, ceremonies, prayer, cathedrals, and all of the trappings of organized religion. I hope to depict a chapter that doesn't care for such distractions, believing that it distracts the mind from serving the Emperor. No "word" or flowing texts of religious script. Any creed they have could be boiled down to three points: 1) Humanity is destined to conquer and rule the galaxy and that is its sole purpose for existence. 2) Humanity is weak and strives to avoid its duty under Point 1. 3) Humanity must be either reformed or culled until Point 2 is no longer applicable. The Heralds of Terra fight crusades to accomplish Point 1 and will do so with any Imperial forces that show suitable dedication to humanity's destiny. They are not opposed to the Ecclesiarchy, per se, as they recognize it as an effective way to bring the wayward back into humanity. However, where they find selfishness or shallow belief in the Emperor, they tend to get a little hostile. Sort of a less radical recongregator mindset wedded to Astartes austerity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278099-zealotry-and-you-religion-and-the-astartes/#findComment-3419787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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