Scouts

[FerociousBeast]

Scouts are rarely fielded with anything other than sniper rifles in the DA lists I see posted these days, and it's easy to see why. It's finally a cheap enough option to consider (free), it enables Scouts to stay well away from the action, the Techmarine's newfound popularity means Bolster Defenses + camo cloak + Troops can make a static Scout squad hunkering down next to an objective pretty compelling, it has the potential to put a small dent in some big nasties.

 

They do have other configurations, however. Scouts can be run with boltguns, 2 CCWs, shotguns, or sniper rifles for the exact same price. Has anyone had success running Scouts in a configuration other than sniper?

 

In particular, I've always thought that shotgun Scouts had some potential, but I almost never see them show up in lists. For purposes of assault, I think the shotgun beats the BP+CCW in most scenarios.

1. Both configurations yield a potential 4 attacks on the charge
2. Shotgun, however, guarantees 2 attacks while BP+CCW guarantees only 1 attack
3. Similarly, twice the shooting means fewer opponents to deal with in H2H
4. Shotgun's 2 shots are statistically superior to the Bolt Pistol's 1 AP5 shot against all armor saves
5. Shotgun Scouts are more lethal on Overwatch than BP+CCW
6. The first situation where the BP+CCW beats the shotgun is in subsequent rounds of combat (but, face it, we're talking about Scouts here... if they don't win upfront, they're in trouble)
7. The second situation where the BP+CCW beats the shotgun is where the enemy charges the Scouts and the Scouts do not Overwatch

So, basically, BP+CCW yields a more defensive configuration than the shotgun, but if the Scouts get the jump on the enemy, due to Outflank or their advanced position, the shotgun is superior.

 

Thoughts? What about the other configuration, boltguns? Since Scouts went down to BS3 and Tacticals became 14 ppm, I've just written that configuration off, but the Scouts do have a plethora of special rules that could conceivably make for some fun bolting action.

[Tanhausen]

TBH, when we pay 60 points for 5 guys who's role in life is to sunbathe and grab an objective...I'm not really concerned they actually shoot at all! :P

 

IME, they're more of a list filler or the "oh shoot, I'd need/like another scoring unit" for low cost.

 

Sniper rifles...I don't think they've even made a casualty in quite a few games hehe Hence, I'm strongly considering replacing the scouts with 5 tacticals...for 10 more points they are quite much more versatile and can actually stand a chance vs things the scouts can't even think of...

 

There was a board member (can't remeber his nick) which did a full scout SM list with some degree of success...

 

All in all, I think in order to make a scout unit worthy, you need to go for full bodies and (provided support) maybe they could actually add some saturation through shotguns in particular areas....but the option goes to 120+ points and that quite a tag.

 

Just thinking out loud :)

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I will say I ran a squad of ten (heresy I know) and the nice part was having a full turn of shooting that the enemy couldn't respond too *Necrons 24" guns* While they cost as much as a lightly kitted Tac Squad the Camo Cloaks and rending plus being able to pick out characters was a blessing for me. Albeit I've only ran them twice, did they do much? No. Did they do what they were supposed to do and hold the objective and kill a model or two? Yes. I believe scouts are a almost entirely defensive squad who engage and keep the enemy where we want *out of hand to hand* and sit nice and pretty on a cover laden objective. The other configs for them besides sniper I believe are just covered too well by other units. Hand to hand scouts Death Knights or even Assault Squad which has mobility. Bolt guns as I said they already cost nearly as much as a Tac Squad which can have better shooting and better armor. If you really want a similar squad to "outflank" you can drop pod them in for pretty much the same effect. My two cents as I haven't played a ton of games in 6th but they seem to work for me.

 

DoC

[Adper]

When I first came back to 40k, I included sniper squads in my first few matches.  Maybe it was just bad rolling on my part, but they performed miserably.  I barely made any hits, let alone wounds with them, and they couldn't killed a single thing.  And now that more and more armies are getting "ignores cover" weapons or abilities you can say goodbye to that 2+ cover save.  Since a squad of scouts with cloaks is the same price as regular marines, I will gladly take my regular marines over them.

 

Granted the potential for them to be awesome is there, but the low BS and high point cost of a not overly shooty unit hurts them in my opinion.

[Cactus]

Sniper scouts have under-performed for me for at least three editions of the game. Having been on the receiving end of them a few times in 6th edition I don't believe that precision shots outweigh the reduction in BS.

 

I've used scouts with pistols and knives in a 1000pt Standard of Devastation list. Five-strong and carrying a missile launcher they outflanked against ork trukk boyz. My opponent had to send a mob back to stop them putting krak missiles into the rear of his looted wagons. I got lucky when he failed a charge from about 5" away, then I ran into cover and they kept that mob occupied for two turns and relieved the pressure on my gun line. Against tau they infiltrated and scouted onto the relic, and hunkered down in a ruin with it for a few turns. Unfortunately the game concluded with my force being wiped out so ultimately they contributed nothing.

 

I do think that as a cheap (ie under 100pts) outflanking unit they bring the ability to threaten the rear armour of vehicles, assault backfield shooting units (they may not win, but every turn that <insert heavy support infantry squad here> isn't shooting at you is worth it), achieve the linebreaker objective and even contest or hold a primary objective. They have too much potential to be ignored by your opponent and you sacrifice very little from the rest of your army; they cost roughly as much as 2 terminators or a land speeder typhoon or half a dreadnought. Shotguns are probably their best option for this role and as it happens I bought a load on that well-known auction site last year. I still need to get them painted though.

[FerociousBeast]

That's what I've been thinking. For 120 points, an outflanking Scout squad w/ shotguns can potentially put out 40 S4 shots and attacks the turn it arrives from reserves, if it can get a charge off. Granted, it's at BS3 and WS3, so on average 20 hits. But that could do a number on Eldar, IG, or other T3 units. Plus 10 krak grenades are a threat to most vehicles in the game right now. Meanwhile, Outflanking in from Reserves keeps the unit safe from all the nasty stuff out there that would love the chance to have a go at some Scouts.

[shabbadoo]

A unit cannot charge on the turn it arrives from Reserves, or on the first turn of the game if the unit has infiltrated or made a scout move, so cut that damage potential in half.

 

For general up-close work, I prefer bolt pistol + close combat weapon, with a veteran sergeant armed with a powerfist or power weapon + meltabombs.  It has to be a full-sized, 10-man squad so as to be able to suck up casualties and still likely be around to hit back with the good stuff.

[FerociousBeast]

Why do you prefer BP+CCW over shotguns?

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

FerociousBeast,

 

Just guessing but I would say that it probably is because if you are going for up close anyway you know they are getting into Hand to hand and might as well get the extra attack in Close combat. It will do much better than the Shotguns I think. Of course Shabbaddoo can actually answer for himself but that's what I would think.

 

DoC

[shabbadoo]

Why do you prefer BP+CCW over shotguns?

Because...

1. ...when you are close enough to use shotguns, you are close enough to be shot at by most things.

2. ...shotguns will often kill too many models for the Scouts to still have something in ragne to assault.

3. ...I'd rather be putting fewer bolt pistol shots into the enemy to soften them up, but not likely break them, and so still have something to charge and get locked up with, such that the enemy will be unable to shoot the snot out the my Scouts with anything else in their army in return.

4. ...20 shotgun overwatch shots versus squishy IG results in only 0.148 kills compared to 0.111 kills from 10 bolt pistol shots. Yes, a +.037 bonus is not exactly making me scream, "I gotta have shotguns instead of bolt pistols!", especially considering that...

5. ...bolt pistol + close combat weapon = +1 Attack; shotgun + bolt pistol not.

6. ...Scouts get more done in close combat than they do shooting, and the chance of making enemies run from close combat is much greater than making them run from shooting (i.e play to the unit's strengths). An extra Attack per model kinda helps out greatly with that.

Sure, that is going to be somewhat situational, depend on the enemy you are facing, and everything else you have in your army, but I like protracted assaults because they are good way to distract/lock up enemy units while the rest of your army does its thing. For ranged weapons, I would go with snipers and a heavy bolter or missile launcher. Shotguns are a distant second, and bolters are pretty much right out seeing as I can simply take the superior Tactical Squad with bolters for only a couple points more per model. The purpose of Scouts is to harass and disrupt, and sell themselves dearly when necessary. I find that, for my armies, the best configurations for doing so are the sniper and close combat configurations.

[Cod]

This has been interesting for me to read!

I have 15 unassembled scouts and had been thinking of making 10 as snipers and the 5 with either bolters and heavy bolter, or shotguns.

Your views have helped

[FerociousBeast]

Well, the shotgun is a close combat configuration, not a shooting config. If you want shooty Scouts, you pick snipers or bolters. The contention that BP+CCW gives you +1 attack is in my opinion outweighed by the +1 shot you will always get. If you get in combat with higher initiative, like Eldar, some of those +1A from the CCW will be lost. But you're never going to lose the shotgun's 2 shots. Unless you get charged.

 

Like I said in the OP, if you're looking for a defensive configuration, or if you want a unit to grab an objective and hit the dirt for the rest of the game, the BP+CCW might be better. But if you want a unit that will outflank in and harass the enemy's flanks and rear, I think the shotgun is the better choice.

[Cactus]

Is there any merit in taking a mixture of close combat weapons and shotguns in one unit?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Is there any merit in taking a mixture of close combat weapons and shotguns in one unit?

Jack of all trades, master of none. But sure does look ace o the tabletop.

[shabbadoo]

Well, the shotgun is a close combat configuration, not a shooting config.

No, the shotgun is not a close combat configuration.  You *shoot* with shotguns, up close, using Ballistic Skill.  Accordingly, Morale checks are handled as shooting attacks.  Close Combat Morale checks are way more effective than shooting Morale checks.  Short ranged flamers are shooty weapons too.  What I hope you you meant to say is that "Shotguns are close assault weapons.", which is what they are flamers are.- you shoot them, and then assault if able to.  it is simply that the 6E causltiy removal ruels will noit allow for th assult pat of that as often as before, so your unit can be be left with its arse in the breeze.

 

I left a couple things off my list:

 

7. ...close combat attack from Scouts will hit on a at least a 4+, but fairly often on a 3+; shotguns only ever hit on a 4+.

8. ...shotgun attacks allow for cover saves; bolt pistol + close combat weapon attacks do not.

 

The shotgun has its uses, but only in very specific instances. Bolt pistol + close combat weapon works better in many more situations.  Much of the choice will simply have to do with how one prefers to play though, and based on what else in in one's army.  For instance, you might want shotgun Scouts if you also have a bunch of Land Speeders that will gun down anything near your Scouts that they do not gun down/break.  Then you are playing a somewhat mobile "hose the enemy down" army. if you really don't plan to be assaulted though, bolters are actually the more useful choice in this case, as they can always fire two shots out to 12" (or one shot out to 24") when the Scouts are moving, and are AP 5, the latter of which may matter against IG, Orks, Tyranids, Eldar, and Dark Eldar. how one plays, and what armies one often plays against, will undoubtedly influence opinions on things.

[FerociousBeast]

No, I meant what I said. Shotguns are a close combat configuration because you only use them when you want your Scouts to be effective in H2H.

 

Your arguments seem to ping pong between "Shotguns kill too much! Can't get the charge off!" to "shotguns don't kill enough! The enemy won't break and they have cover saves!" About cover saves, sometimes that will be an issue, but usually cover saves are useful against shots that beat armor since most units have a decent armor save these days. More often you'll need to worry about higher initiative troops who can negate your extra CCW attacks by killing models. Shooting is like an I11 attack in that it always goes first.

 

As for hitting on 3s, who are we really talking about? Tau? Scouts will do fine against Tau in CC, but they need to be afraid of overwatch, and again more shots is the ticket here, too.

[Biggabertha]

I see scouts now being a LOT more effective in small points situations - my scout squad seems to do really well for introducing new players into the game and they are a very good way to both deal damage and teach them valuable lessons.

 

Against intermediate players, taking several Scouts for some reason intimidates them - the large body count somehow frightens them into making some very poor choices and using Combat Squad rules really messes them up. They keep believing they should go after the Snipers but there are Shotguns and Bolt Pistols in the way. Combined with a Librarian, it just really makes a lot of them uncomfortable (and at 500 point games, 40 scouts in 8 squads must be kinda scary if a little too fragile.

 

 

On (immediate) topic: I find that since the inception of this thread, I've tried fielding scouts a lot more often (I really need to paint mine for the ETL...) and honestly, it's hard to turn down the Shotgun configuration for at least five members. Bolt Pistol is very nice and can really lay into the Tau and some Eldar but for me, they usually suffer on the charge - Shotgun/Storm Bolter (for the Sergeant) helps thin things like this down but at such a range, it's really annoying that Tau can always outrange you.

 

 

Personally, I prefer Scouts these days as a unit to hold down crummy and out of reach objectives if not fielded en masse but in a non-serious game, they seem to really "balance" well with everyone that isn't (Chaos) Space Marines and Tyranids. It all comes down to dice and good placement then as opposed to Tactical Squads Vs. Gretchin/Grots.

[shabbadoo]

No, I meant what I said. Shotguns are a close combat configuration because you only use them when you want your Scouts to be effective in H2H.

 

Your arguments seem to ping pong between "Shotguns kill too much! Can't get the charge off!" to "shotguns don't kill enough! The enemy won't break and they have cover saves!" About cover saves, sometimes that will be an issue, but usually cover saves are useful against shots that beat armor since most units have a decent armor save these days. More often you'll need to worry about higher initiative troops who can negate your extra CCW attacks by killing models. Shooting is like an I11 attack in that it always goes first.

 

As for hitting on 3s, who are we really talking about? Tau? Scouts will do fine against Tau in CC, but they need to be afraid of overwatch, and again more shots is the ticket here, too.

You don't use shotguns when you want Scouts to be effective in close combat. That is literally insane, like saying "Putting power fists on your veteran sergeants is a shooting configuration, because it makes them better in shooting."  Shotguns are *shooting* weapons. They cause *shooting* casualties. They potentially cause *shooting* Morale checks, which are *inferior* to close combat Morale checks in all ways. How do you cause *close combat* Morale checks? With *close combat* attacks, which shotguns do not do.  Shotguns have no effect in close combat.  Literally.

 

As to what is being hit on 3's, yes, Tau and some other units, but mainly every vehicle in the game that isn't a Walker, except for Killa Kans which are Walkers but that Scouts will hit on 3's. Everyone probably knows more than few people that like to play mechanized armies, which shotguns and bolters are pretty much useless against, whereas close combat attacks are not due to hitting rear armor.

 

My argument does not pinp-pong either.  It caters to the situation, which is entirely dependent upon the tactics that a player desires to use based on what models they include in their army. Scouts can be used in many ways, indifferent situations, and on their own or in conjunction with other units.  Let's break it down a bit:

 

1. If you want your Scouts to sit back and plink away at the enemy from range, you arm them with bolters or sniper rifles and heavy weapons.

 

2. If you want your Scouts to Infiltrate/Scout move/Outflank, have a lot of terrain in play and want to make use of it, and want to stay OUT of close combat then arm them with bolters or shotguns. Shotgun-armed Scouts must necessarily put themsleve in retaliation range, and will therefore require more support to keep them from being wiped out too quickly.

 

3. If you want your Scouts to Infiltrate/Scout move/Outflank, have a lot a of terrain and want to make use of it, and want to be IN close combat, arm them with bolt pistols and close combat weapons and the Veteran Sergeant with a power weapon/fist. This unit will not require as much support because it will be lurking among terrain where it will have good cover save, and because the enemy cannot shoot at what is engaged in close combat which is where this unit will be making every effort to be if you are playing them right. The multi-charge is a very useful tactic in this regard.

 

4. If you want your Scouts to Infiltrate/Scout move/Outflank, do NOT have a lot of terrain and using what there is won't be much of a factor, and want to stay OUT of close combat then arm them with bolters or shotguns and heavy weapons, and be prepared to back them up so as to keep enemy retaliation form simply annihilating them, all so that they can continue to be an threat (or at least an annoyance).

 

5. If you want your Scouts to Infiltrate/Scout move/Outflank, do NOT have a lot of terrain and using what there is won't be much of a factor, and want to be IN close combat (sually so that the rest of the enemy can NOT shoot them to crap), arm them with bolt pistols and close combat weapons and the Veteran Sergeant with a power weapon/fist. This unit will require more suppoots simply due to the lack of terrain, and should b e making every effort to be engage in close combat so that it is less vulnerable. The multi-charge is a very useful tactic in this regard.

 

Options 2-5 assume a shooty enemy army is being faced. Against enemy forces that are superior to your Scouts in close combat, you will want to field shooty Scouts, such that you can take the enemy down before they get to you. If the enemy is fast moving and deadly, moving into shotgun range will likely end up in the death of your Scouts, so take bolters instead. if the enemy are slugs, taking shotguns is less risky.

[march10k]

Scouts were the shizznet with boltpistol and ccw in the closing days of 5th edition.  80 (iirc?) points got you 21 S4 attacks on the charge (charge+ahw+base1+shot*5+1serg) anywhere within 12" of a board edge with outflanking to the side of your choice 2/3 of the time.  Amazing bang for the buck, and it "encouraged" the enemy to hug the center a little more, which is great when the scouts are supporting slow-as-mud terminators.  Then they killed (out)flank charges, and they became useless, except as sunbathing objective-huggers.

[shabbadoo]

Sure, they killed the no-brainer use of Outflanking units in 6E, which probably isn't a bad thing at all considering how many other kinds of vicious units can Outflank.  What they should have done is give foot Scouts the booby trap ability (they actually having skills in terrain, whereas bikers can die simply by entering it), and take that ability away from Scout Bikers and replace it with something else (something like a Surprise Assault perhaps).  They certainly didn't over think the role/capabilities of Scouts at all.

[march10k]

 

Sure, they killed the no-brainer use of Outflanking units in 6E, which probably isn't a bad thing at all considering how many other kinds of vicious units can Outflank. 

My problem is that they only nerfed the melee outflankers...in an edition that favors shooters to begin with.  Al'Rahem didn't get nerfed at all by the rule change!

[FerociousBeast]

I'm well aware that shotguns are used in the shooting phase. You don't need to belabor that point. What I am saying is that if you want scouts to be effective in close combat, give them a shotgun because it will help them on the charge. This is not a difficult point I'm making.

 

About hitting vehicles on 3s, why aren't you using kraks? Whether shotguns or CCWs, krak = 1 attack. Statistically 6 scouts will cause 2 glancing hits on AV10 with CCWs, or 2 glancing OR penetrating hits with kraks.</p>

[FerociousBeast]

Thinking about one of your points, that using the shotgun can make it harder to get into combat, has given me another reason to recommend the shotgun. In 6E, there's no guarantee that you'll get that charge off. If you move your Scouts towards the enemy, shoot off bolt pistols, then fail your charge, all you've accomplished is those bolt pistol shots. With shotguns, in the same scenario, you've doubled your shots. In 6E, shooting is king, and shooting is more reliable than CC.

[shabbadoo]

So why would you not then take boltguns instead, as they have better AP and the option to shoot at further range?  One gain, the shotgun loses.

 

I'm well aware that shotguns are used in the shooting phase. You don't need to belabor that point. What I am saying is that if you want scouts to be effective in close combat, give them a shotgun because it will help them on the charge. This is not a difficult point I'm making.

About hitting vehicles on 3s, why aren't you using kraks? Whether shotguns or CCWs, krak = 1 attack. Statistically 6 scouts will cause 2 glancing hits on AV10 with CCWs, or 2 glancing OR penetrating hits with kraks.</p>

Shotguns help on the charge not at all.  They make it more likely that the charge will fail simply because they may potentially do more casualties than bolt pistols, and so the enemy will more likely be out of range of the charge.  Take into account potential Overwatch casualties and a failed charge is even more likely.  If you don't plan to charge anyways because you wish to rely on hitting enemy units so hard that they will not be in retaliatory charge range themselves, then the bolter is still better suited to such a tactic because of its AP and the option to shoot out to further range.  Is the shotgun really that bad?  No, but it really is a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none type of weapon.  Some might like it, but I prefer going all one way, or all the other, meaning heavily favoring shooting or heavily favoring close combat, because units that half-arse things are not that effective overall.

 

As to hitting vehicles on 3's and why one would use basic close combat attacks against them rather than krak grenades, sometimes you want to glance things to death because there is no chance that they will explode and kill you back (Ork players surely know that I am talking about :lol:).  Yes, the glancing hit potential will dependent upon the size of the Scout Squad (and whether the target vehicle (s) moved or not), but I wouldn't run a unit of bolt pistol & close combat weapon-armed Scouts at less than the full 10-man size anyways; not only because of the lessened damage potential, but because a unit that is going to start off close to the enemy is almost guaranteed to suffer some casualties anyways.

[Master Avoghai]

Shotguns help on the charge not at all. They make it more likely that the charge will fail simply because they may potentially do more casualties than bolt pistols, and so the enemy will more likely be out of range of the charge. Take into account potential Overwatch casualties and a failed charge is even more likely.

Except that if you make more kills then the potential of overwatch is lower : less enemies able to shoot at you...

 

I understand FB point of view. He's just explaining that if you use shotguns then it means that you plan to charge after because of the range.

 

Actually no matter if the target flees after the shooting phase or after the assault phase due to CC. The result is the same : the scouts are in the open field during the following shooting phase.