Scouts

[cypherkk]

I go either bolt guns and a dakka banner on terminators, or sniper rifles with a fort. Banner. Cc isn't even an option fort My scouts.

 

Scouts are for shooting and scoring, terminators are for assault and taking shots in a threating manner, leaving scouts alive to score.

 

It's been working well though, originally I made mistakes like thinking scouts had teleport Homers, so now I add a few bikes sometimes instead of so many scouts.

[SRSFACE]

I think my scouts have inflicted maybe 3 casualties across the games I've played with them ever.

 

I just don't see their purpose. I don't see the point of running them against most codexes without also grabbing camo cloaks, and as soon as I do that I might as well have brought a Tactical marine so I could actually shoot things accurately.

[shabbadoo]

 

Shotguns help on the charge not at all. They make it more likely that the charge will fail simply because they may potentially do more casualties than bolt pistols, and so the enemy will more likely be out of range of the charge. Take into account potential Overwatch casualties and a failed charge is even more likely.

Except that if you make more kills then the potential of overwatch is lower : less enemies able to shoot at you...

 

I understand FB point of view. He's just explaining that if you use shotguns then it means that you plan to charge after because of the range.

 

Actually no matter if the target flees after the shooting phase or after the assault phase due to CC. The result is the same : the scouts are in the open field during the following shooting phase.

Exactly.  You acknowledged the point, but then thought about the situation that would very likely arise, and then came to correct conclusion that the point is a not a very good one.  Either the Scouts shoot themselves out of charge range simply because of the shotgun's high rate of fire, or break the enemy with shooting.  Either way, the squad is usually then going to be much more vulnerable to retaliation than it was before moving and shooting (one assumes the Scouts started in or behind cover).  At least if the Scouts charge and wipe out the enemy, they get the charge move and a consolidation move, which together will have a decent chance of getting them to some sort of safer place.  Or they don't wipe the enemy out in close combat and remain locked up, and so at least can't be shot up by other enemy units.  In many more cases than not, those two options will be better than moving up and shooting shotguns.  Scouts really need to be played either super aggressive, or super defensive/elusive.  There isn't much of an effective middle ground for them.

[elphilo]

I think my scouts have inflicted maybe 3 casualties across the games I've played with them ever.

 

I just don't see their purpose. I don't see the point of running them against most codexes without also grabbing camo cloaks, and as soon as I do that I might as well have brought a Tactical marine so I could actually shoot things accurately.

Outflanking/Infiltrating onto an objective with a really good cover save. Thats about all I would use them for :P :)

[FerociousBeast]

 

In many more cases than not, those two options will be better than moving up and shooting shotguns.  Scouts really need to be played either super aggressive, or super defensive/elusive.  There isn't much of an effective middle ground for them.

 

Yes, if you give Scouts shotguns, the only possible outcomes are:

 

A.) They shoot, kill lots of models, and fail the charge. Then they die.

B.) They shoot, kill lots of models, and the enemy breaks. Then they die.

C.) They shoot, but shotguns suck, so they don't kill anything. Then they get killed in CC. Then they die.

 

Meanwhile, against vehicles:

 

D.) They use kraks, then get penetrating hits and the vehicle explodes. Then they die.

 

On the other hand, if you give them BP+CCW:

 

A.) They shoot, kill diddly squat, make the charge and totally rock the enemy. And live!

B.) Against vehicles, all 10 get into CC because their charge range is perfect and nobody has killed any yet, inflict 30 attacks that hit on 3+ and glance on 6+, and glance the vehicle to death. And live!

 

You know, I think you've convinced me. Shotguns suck.

[Master Avoghai]

Finally the conclusion wouldn't be

 

"No matter the weapon the have, scouts suck?"

[MadMek83]

Finally the conclusion wouldn't be

 

"No matter the weapon the have, scouts suck?"

Past two games my sniper scouts have either rendered rhino's dead, glacing other transports just fine. Well, I am sure soon my scouts will horribly fail but so far they've each made their points worth back or more

[Master Avoghai]

Using a 65pts units to destroy a 35 pts rhino is not what I call "worth back"

[Biggabertha]

Using a 65pts units to destroy a 35 pts rhino is not what I call "worth back"

Agreed - very low point armies is where I see Scouts being viable now that I play with them more.

 

Shotguns look so good and the theory behind them are so good - so thanks to low point games, they don't really need to worry about being left in the open (so much).

[cypherkk]

I've thing to remember about tac. Marines, to get then where scouts can start they need a vehicle. which is more points than scouts with a camo cloak.

 

The real advantage for the scouts is the flexibility. Flanking, outflanking, advance deploying and being an un known threat during deployment, and finally the ability to redeploy just before first turn, aka right after steal the initiative.

 

The alt. options for tac. Marines is a drop pod, which us good if, you have them, can afford a bunch if then and are willing to put them together, for a model that sits there and roughly does nothing the rest of the game. Except score line breaker... :)

[Cactus]

The alt. options for tac. Marines is a drop pod, which us good if, you have them, can afford a bunch if then and are willing to put them together, for a model that sits there and roughly does nothing the rest of the game. Except score line breaker...

Vehicles aren't scoring or denial units so can't achieve the Linebreaker objective.

[elphilo]

The real advantage for the scouts is the flexibility. Flanking, outflanking, advance deploying and being an un known threat during deployment, and finally the ability to redeploy just before first turn, aka right after steal the initiative.

Infiltrate and Scout redeployments are done before Seizing the Initiative.

[SRSFACE]

I think my scouts have inflicted maybe 3 casualties across the games I've played with them ever.

I just don't see their purpose. I don't see the point of running them against most codexes without also grabbing camo cloaks, and as soon as I do that I might as well have brought a Tactical marine so I could actually shoot things accurately.

Outflanking/Infiltrating onto an objective with a really good cover save. Thats about all I would use them for

True, but I tend to run a Ravenwing army so I can just do that with bikes instead. Yeah, it's more points and fewer wounds, but with better fire power (I'll take 3 twin-linked boltguns at BS4 than 5 regular boltguns/boltpistols/shotguns/snipers at BS3 any day) and the ability to turbo boost so if you outflank on a side that kind of sucks for you to be stuck on, you can get into position better.

I need to pick up a fortress of redemption for my playstyle. Just stack a ton of Tactical marines in front of the Banner of Dakka, use my librarian to man the Lascannon, and then just do as much carnage as I can with my outflanking Black Knights.

[cypherkk]

No seizing is done then scout. Scout says, before first player takes his turn.

 

As for line breaker, not sure I thought vehicles could be denial units

[Master Avoghai]

No the denial units cannot be

 

Swarms

Vehicles unless you play a scenario like big guns that allows specifically HS vehicles to hold objectives or cleanse that allows FA vehicles to hold as well.

[elphilo]

No seizing is done then scout. Scout says, before first player takes his turn.

 

As for line breaker, not sure I thought vehicles could be denial units

Which is before Seizing. Need to read page 121 Deployment: Deploying Infiltrators and Redeploying Scouts. Then on Page 122 you start the first turn, but before first turn starts the player going second may seize.

[cypherkk]

Well, f. Me sideways... Lol that's terribly unuseful 90% of the time. Bones ravenwing too.

[Master Avoghai]

Not unuseful at all... I mean for RW because scouts ARE unuseful

 

I mean, in 84% of the cases you still know who will start and who will not. So you'll have to deploy and scout your bikes accordingly.

 

Moreover, you can use the 12" move to reach a terrain that blocks LoS or going to a part of the table where the enemy's weapon are out of range.

And it's IF your opponent wants to seize the initiative. In some battles he won't try...

[shortysl]

Using a 65pts units to destroy a 35 pts rhino is not what I call "worth back"

Unless you think of it as denial of mobility rather than a straight points-for-points comparison.....

[FerociousBeast]

A unit only ever needs to get its points back if it's destroyed. Otherwise, any of the opponents' points that it removes contributes positively to the point-for-point balance.

This kind of analysis obviously doesn't take into account force multipliers or strategic benefits. But if you're going to do a simple point-for-point analysis, it helps to do it right

[Tiger9gamer]

So what would be the verdic of outflanking scouts? Maybe as an allied support? i like the idea of close combat scouts quite a bit.

[Master Avoghai]

To me, the verdict is : scouts are as useful as a dark talon :P

[skawolf]

I like running 5 with 4x bp+ccw and 1 with a shotgun... mainly because those are the metal models I have. When I run a squad of 10 CC scouts I use 8xccw+bp, 1 shotgun and a sgt. with ccw+ plasma pistol.

Not the best set up but it is fun to use in a supporting charge with another unit.

[FerociousBeast]

To me, the verdict is : scouts are as useful as a dark talon

Wow, that useful? And so much cheaper, too!

;)

[facmanpob]

So what would be the verdic of outflanking scouts? Maybe as an allied support? i like the idea of close combat scouts quite a bit.

Not sure about outflanking, but as an infiltrating unit with a teleport homer, they could be useful as an allied element to allow for accurate DWA....