Scouts

[Tiger9gamer]

I usually don't use that much of the Deathwing to be honest though still stuck in the banner of Devastation stuff.

What about the type of power weapon? like, would he have a power sword, Axe or Maul?

[FerociousBeast]

 

So what would be the verdic of outflanking scouts? Maybe as an allied support? i like the idea of close combat scouts quite a bit.

Not sure about outflanking, but as an infiltrating unit with a teleport homer, they could be useful as an allied element to allow for accurate DWA....

 

For some absolutely ridiculous reason, you can't give DA scouts a teleport homer.

[SRSFACE]

They might remove teleport homers off codex marines, to be fair. We don't know and won't til the new codex drops.

 

I still maintain scouts are there purely for fluff reasons, with all the rest of the fun stuff in this codex.

 

@Frater_Domus: I'd probably do maul or sword. Hard to imagine a scout sgt. surviving til initiative 1 with only that 4+ armor to use an axe. Personally I'm a fan of power mauls because half the time I try and use power swords, they never inflict a wound to begin with. Yeah, you don't beat power armor saves with a maul, but you'll thump the stuffing out of any non-Space Marine unit. Considering you have the option to outflank, it's possible you'd get them near a vehicle with armor 10 and he could even reliably deal damage in close combat against rear armor 10 that way, too.

 

I guess I trust the increased chance of causing a wound over making sure they don't get their 3+ armor save. Half the time people are going to kit up their characters to have an invulnerable save that's a 4+ or 3+ anyway so the more wounds you actually inflict to force them to make the rolls, the better.

[facmanpob]

 

 

 

So what would be the verdic of outflanking scouts? Maybe as an allied support? i like the idea of close combat scouts quite a bit.

Not sure about outflanking, but as an infiltrating unit with a teleport homer, they could be useful as an allied element to allow for accurate DWA....

For some absolutely ridiculous reason, you can't give DA scouts a teleport homer.

The latest rumours are that the new codex: SM scouts will have access to a teleport homer

[Master Avoghai]

 

To me, the verdict is : scouts are as useful as a dark talon :P

 

Wow, that useful? And so much cheaper, too!

 

;)

Well... A squad of 10 scouts with camo cloak and ML cost roughly the same price as a DT...

 

And though the DT is not the best flyer in the world, he has a better firepower and much more survivability...

[march10k]

So what would be the verdic of outflanking scouts? Maybe as an allied support? i like the idea of close combat scouts quite a bit.

Not sure about outflanking, but as an infiltrating unit with a teleport homer, they could be useful as an allied element to allow for accurate DWA....

For some absolutely ridiculous reason, you can't give DA scouts a teleport homer.

A ridiculous reason like "so you can't deepstrike 50% of your units (potentially more than 2/3 of your points, if you do it right) without scatter on the top of turn one and blow the enemy off the board with twinlinked split fire for slightly more than the cost of a single terminator, oh, and by the way, you also get an additional scoring unit for those couple of points?"

Scouts with telehomers would have WAY too much potential for abuse in C: DA. Oh, but you want it, therefore not getting it is "ridiculous."

[facmanpob]

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what would be the verdic of outflanking scouts? Maybe as an allied support? i like the idea of close combat scouts quite a bit.

 

Not sure about outflanking, but as an infiltrating unit with a teleport homer, they could be useful as an allied element to allow for accurate DWA....

 

For some absolutely ridiculous reason, you can't give DA scouts a teleport homer.

A ridiculous reason like "so you can't deepstrike 50% of your units (potentially more than 2/3 of your points, if you do it right) without scatter on the top of turn one and blow the enemy off the board with twinlinked split fire for slightly more than the cost of a single terminator, oh, and by the way, you also get an additional scoring unit for those couple of points?"

 

Scouts with telehomers would have WAY too much potential for abuse in C: DA.  Oh, but you want it, therefore not getting it is "ridiculous."  :wallbash:

Remember that a basic bike squad is only a few points more than a scout squad and has 3 homers! We can already get cheap homers on the board whenever we want!

 

But in a couple of weeks time I'm going to be able to ally in a scout squad with a homer from C:SM, and take an AA tank as well, thereby countering one of the main weaknesses of C:DA.... So why not allow me to do the scout homer direct from C:DA in the first place?

[FerociousBeast]

Yes, march10k, it is ridiculous. As noted by facmanpob, you can already do it with Ravenwing, and it's nowhere near as game breaking as your screed makes it out to be. If the reason they left it out was primarily for balance reasons, I'd consider it even more ridiculous, because they'd be saying that the Dark Angels limit themselves on the battlefield lest they have too great a advantage over their foes.

 

No the real reason they don't have telehomers is because GW decided that it's only Ravenwing who have that honor, which is nonsense. And of course Naaman would like to have some words with GW on that point.

[Cactus]

I don't think the lack of teleport homers for our scouts is for reasons of game balance. I think it's either i) a conscious decision to only ever have the Ravenwing (and Belial) guide the Deathwing in, because any of those actions could relate to the Hunt and you really don't want novices seeing more than they should; or ii) a sloppy cut'n'paste from the previous codex, like Howling Banshees not having assault grenades.

 

Personally I'd like scout sergeants to have the option to carry an auspex and/or an infravisor. Allowing veteran scout sergeants (ie Naaman-a-likes) a teleport homer would be cool.

[Isiah]

Alllowing DW sgts a teleport homer option would be cool too :). But I think Cactus has the right of it. As GW see it it's RW homers or no homers <_<.

 

Cheers

I

[SRSFACE]

If teleport homers were included as a wargear option, it'd actually be cheaper most likely be just as cheap to go with Ravenwing bikes anyway, to be fair. I don't see the point of scouts without camo cloaks, so if it was 10 points to give homers to the squad, it'd be the exact same point cost.

 

RW bikes have scout movement too so, I too don't think it's really gameplay reasons this wasn't included. I bet its more from them wanting to make all Dark Angel units that aren't unique to the codex inferior to the codex marine brethren to keep us trying use more fluffy units.

 

Or something. I think at this point, we should just give up trying to figure out GW's motivations for anything because they are about as whimsical as the musings of Badger from Breaking Bad.

[Cactus]

Alllowing DW sgts a teleport homer option would be cool too .

Why stop there? In 2nd edition every suit of terminator armour had an inbuilt teleport homer. How else do you think they get the survivors bodies out of space hulks? I believe the homer is that little nub between the shoulders of the metal terminator models.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Unless I'm missing something... RW bikes can't infiltrate.

 

I think no Scout homers is both fluff and balance. RW are the 'scouts' for DA, DA Scouts are more akin to Neophytes. As in, their job is not to scout or reconnoitre; it's support and learning to be a Spehss Mahreen.

 

 

Also, as mentioned, allowing 66% of a TDA army to DS next to infiltrators, not scatter and be twin-linked on arrival is madness.

 

So just take Belial and a Comms Relay, have Belial DA in turn one and then DS your TDA next to him turn two on a 2+.

[Master Avoghai]

Unless I'm missing something... RW bikes can't infiltrate.

Of course, but they can scout 12"

 

I think no Scout homers is both fluff and balance. RW are the 'scouts' for DA, DA Scouts are more akin to Neophytes. As in, their job is not to scout or reconnoitre; it's support and learning to be a Spehss Mahreen.

Then re read Naaman's fluff ;)

 

Also, as mentioned, allowing 66% of a TDA army to DS next to infiltrators, not scatter and be twin-linked on arrival is madness..

I fail to see where it more balanced with scouting bikes...

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Unless I'm missing something... RW bikes can't infiltrate.

Of course, but they can scout 12"

>I think no Scout homers is both fluff and balance. RW are the 'scouts' for DA, DA Scouts are more akin to Neophytes. As in, their job is not to scout or reconnoitre; it's support and learning to be a Spehss Mahreen.

Then re read Naaman's fluff

Also, as mentioned, allowing 66% of a TDA army to DS next to infiltrators, not scatter and be twin-linked on arrival is madness..

I fail to see where it more balanced with scouting bikes...

Eh, one guy does not a Chapter Trait make.

It's not much more balanced, admittedly, but it's a question of distance. You can be closer, faster, with Scouts and a homer. However, it makes sense to be pretty, but not overwhelmingly, devastating when the DW and RW strike in concert. It's their job. "Scouts", not so much.

[Master Avoghai]

Eh, one guy does not a Chapter Trait make.

 

It's not much more balanced, admittedly, but it's a question of distance. You can be closer, faster, with Scouts and a homer. However, it makes sense to be pretty, but not overwhelmingly, devastating when the DW and RW strike in concert. It's their job. "Scouts", not so much.

It's not only "one guy". DA scouts organization and role are not that different from UM one.

So if SM scouts don't have teleport homer either I don't have problem with your reasoning. But if SM scouts have access to teleport homer, then I see no fluff reason for scouts not having homers.

 

And as for the bonus of infiltrating. The number of situations where infiltrating your scouts will give you a position that your scout move don't allow to reach is very rare... And you must take into account that this advanced position won't give the occasion to your opponent to shoot your scouts before they can use their homer.

[march10k]

Yes, march10k, it is ridiculous. As noted by facmanpob, you can already do it with Ravenwing, and it's nowhere near as game breaking as your screed makes it out to be. If the reason they left it out was primarily for balance reasons, I'd consider it even more ridiculous, because they'd be saying that the Dark Angels limit themselves on the battlefield lest they have too great a advantage over their foes.

 

No the real reason they don't have telehomers is because GW decided that it's only Ravenwing who have that honor, which is nonsense. And of course Naaman would like to have some words with GW on that point.

1.  Screed is it?  Screed is a long, tedious text, as opposed to a sarcastic bit of ridicule.  Don't use $20 words unless you know what they mean.

 

2.  Your argument about DA "limiting themselves on the battlefield" has no merit.  Fluff does not override game balance.  To suggest that the absence of telehomers in DA scout game rules means that they don't have access to them in the fluff is utterly ridiculous.  non-character marines have a uniform statline.  Are you suggesting that there are no battle brothers with WS5, and no Chaplains with WS4?  For the love of the Emperor, do not make fluff arguments against game rules! 

 

3.  The suggestion that RW access to telehomers doesn't differ from scout access is ridiculous.  Scouts are scoring. RW are not, unless you pay for Sammy or Azzy.  Scouts infiltrate, giving you telehomer location options that the bikes don't have.  Finally, scouts in cover with chameleoline cloaks are FAR harder to eradicate prior to DWA than bikes are.  Did I mention that they're easier to hide, being smaller models?  Scouts are dramatically better telehomer units than RW.  To claim otherwise is either ignorant in the extreme or dishonest.

 

4.  Naaman is dead.

[facmanpob]

Guys, this is starting to get personal, and none of us want that! Let's try to keep it civil between the frater please....

[Master Avoghai]

The suggestion that RW access to telehomers doesn't differ from scout access is ridiculous. Scouts are scoring. RW are not, unless you pay for Sammy or Azzy. Scouts infiltrate, giving you telehomer location options that the bikes don't have. Finally, scouts in cover with chameleoline cloaks are FAR harder to eradicate prior to DWA than bikes are. Did I mention that they're easier to hide, being smaller models? Scouts are dramatically better telehomer units than RW. To claim otherwise is either ignorant in the extreme or dishonest

That´s why the ETC and other tourny metas count LOADS of DA army composed of termi + scouts combos... <_<

[march10k]

~shrug~

Obviously, RW are FREAKIN' FANTASTIC at a lot of things. It does not follow that they are better telehomer bearers. Not to mention that you conveniently ignore the "must spend serious points on an otherwise not needed character in order to unlock allied scouts" issue. As if native scouts with telehomers wouldn't be the least bit more convenient than allying them in.

/edit/ In fact, if RW were such a mind-blowingly awesome solution for telehomer services, then why would anyone care that our scouts don't have access to telehomers? The very fact that people complain about the fact that DA scouts, who are about as useful as tits on a fish in any other role, don't get telehomers, is exceptionally strong evidence that they are dramatically better beacon-bearers than RW bikes.

[Master Avoghai]

It not the problem that bikes are mind blowingly awesome. It's the fact that scouts with TH are not THAT useful and maybe giving them this opportunity would make them more appealing.

 

It's like saying "no, we don't need to fix the nephilim missiles because we already have access to aegis with quad guns"

[FerociousBeast]

1.  Screed is it?  Screed is a long, tedious text, as opposed to a sarcastic bit of ridicule.  Don't use $20 words unless you know what they mean.

 

2.  Your argument about DA "limiting themselves on the battlefield" has no merit.  Fluff does not override game balance.  To suggest that the absence of telehomers in DA scout game rules means that they don't have access to them in the fluff is utterly ridiculous.  non-character marines have a uniform statline.  Are you suggesting that there are no battle brothers with WS5, and no Chaplains with WS4?  For the love of the Emperor, do not make fluff arguments against game rules! 

 

3.  The suggestion that RW access to telehomers doesn't differ from scout access is ridiculous.  Scouts are scoring. RW are not, unless you pay for Sammy or Azzy.  Scouts infiltrate, giving you telehomer location options that the bikes don't have.  Finally, scouts in cover with chameleoline cloaks are FAR harder to eradicate prior to DWA than bikes are.  Did I mention that they're easier to hide, being smaller models?  Scouts are dramatically better telehomer units than RW.  To claim otherwise is either ignorant in the extreme or dishonest.

 

4.  Naaman is dead.

 

1. 1.C.
2. My point is that fluff and game balance are not mutually exclusive. If it's in the fluff, it should be on the tabletop. Just make the player pay more points for it if necessary.
3. Scouts with infiltrate and Ravenwing with, um, scouts are clearly different. No dispute. There are different wrinkles to both. But to say that the one is gamebreaking while the other is A-OK is a huge stretch. Especially since you can get more competitive advantage from the Ravenwing in many cases. Scouts are simply not dramatically better telehomer units than RW, as you assert. And the difficulty in eradicating a unit is immaterial when we're talking about "the top of turn 1" as you were in your first post on the subject.
4. Did he take the 10th Company's last teleport homer with him?

[Tiger9gamer]

To be fair though, Maybe the DW don't Want the scouts anywhere near where they need to teleport in. They probably want them as far away as possible from the Hunt.

[FerociousBeast]

The Deathwing do much more than hunt the Fallen. Finding one of the Fallen is a relatively rare occurrence. When they do, they use the Ravenwing. Otherwise, when fighting Orks or Necrons or Eldar, why not use Scouts like every other chapter?

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Because the Dark Angels are not like 'every other Chapter'. 

 

If they were, there wouldn't be a C:DA and we wouldn't be here now wasting each other's time with this increasingly pointless discussion.

 

Also, March10k, the complaints about DA Scouts not having THs proves nothing of their effectiveness, it just underscores yet again that GW's fanbase tends to be whiney and entitled.