New Vanguard Vets and Us

[SnorriSnorrison]

Latest rumours say that heroic intervention is now not getting the disordered charge penalty, and the sarge can always pass his glorious intervention roll.  

 

Rumours also say they lose the ability to strike after the strike. 

 

To be honest, right now I'm really glad it's not the Blood Angels getting an update. Everything that made the Vanguard Veterans interesting(for us) is that heroic intervention rule. Assault after deepstrike, BAM. Take out units hiding in the backfield, even with a horrible price tag. It's just a tactical option that's available to the army.

Once we're getting in line with C:SM, they'll probably lose that rule as well and be just another close combat JP unit, of which we have enough already.

 

So for when we're due for an update, let's hope for a different approach on these guys. For C:SM, it's an improvement. For BA, everything but a point reduction would be a little meh.

 

 

 

Snorri

[Blindhamster]

depends on their use to be honest... loss of heroic intervention would mean deep striking them is often a bad idea true, but multi charges was a standard tactic with my vanguard, this edition its a downright bad idea in most circumstances, the C:SM version gets around it nicely. I also quite like the auto Glorious Intervention for the sergeant, imagine your HQ is about to get smooshed by your enemy then your heroic veteran sergeant comes and saves the day, and your warlord.

[SnorriSnorrison]

I see what you mean mate, but I can't really see the benefits for us once(if) we get an update this edition. I mean, to avoid multicharges we've been gifted with many assault units, even spammed assault marines and priests can work, depending on what you're against. Death Company, DC Dreads with Claws(my favourite multi-charge unit...they don't care if they don't get an extra 2 attacks), Sanguinary Guard...those are units that do quite well in close combat, at least for 6th edition standards.

Vanguards are a very interesting unit to us, because they can do something no other unit from our codex can: assault after deepstrike! I may have said it above already, but once they lose this, they'll just be one of those units we already have plenty of. I don't know about you guys, but I only ever take Vanguard Veterans when I want to assault after deepstrike. Even if they were considerably cheaper, without similar options as our Assault Veterans I'm not going to place them on the board.
 

But, we're not the ones to mourn what's coming. Our brothers, the Black Templars, seem have caught a critical blow. To them we should lend faith and righteous zeal so they can focus their will to continue the Eternal Crusade.

 

 

 

Snorri

[Ushtarador]

So they're better at multicharges which are almost impossible to pull off thanks to the 6th multicharge rules. yay.

[Sun Reaver]

Ours are still better because we have red marines. 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Other than the Hellbrute (which appears to have been a genuine error and was fixed within a month of the codex release) have GW ever lowered points prices in a FAQ? 

 

I remember some prices going up, a la Templar Storm Shields, but I don't remember any ever coming down, other than the Hellbrute.

[knife&fork]

Skies of blood supplement, if that counts.

[Zynk Kaladin]

At this point I'm just looking for an excuse to break my "don't buy from GW" mindset and shred my dollars on the vanguard set.  Between that and the DC set my bits box will be quite happy!

 

The new vanilla rules for vanguard seem to make them an over-glorified assault squad (which technically I suppose they should be).  Let's assume for a moment we DO get an update which is actually quite doubtful... Anyway, my "core" lists usually consists of Mephiston and/or a librarian, a JP priest, and 2 assault squads with meltas.  I would LOVE to get more jump pack units on the board, the main reason why I gravitated towards BA.  VAS with their new rules applied to BA could be quite potent.

 

I think a 10 man JP VAS with a JP sanguinary priest(axe), 2 fists, and a prescience libby(axe) would be an extremely devastating and mobile unit, just 1 less attack on the charge per model than JP DC.  I would actually really love this, because I could now combat squad both my 2 "core" AS into 2 x2 melta DoA tank hunters/away objective grabbers, and 2 home objective grabbers.  Or I might convert 1 AS into podded regulars so I can land my 2 fragiosos first turn.

 

 

Obviously I'm just being hypothetical, but it's interesting food for thought nonetheless.

[moric]

Although my experience on the game and in Blood Angels tactics is not extensive, I have found out that we actually dont need another JP assault unit than the assault marines and the DC (not to mention the sanguinary guard), Vanguard vets are a boogeyman that when used will most likely be shred to pieces by our opponent and thusly allow our other units to advance up the board. Some might say that this is not such a bad thing but lets face it if we need a spooky assault unit why not use the dreaded DC with jumpacks and a warden (i calll my chaplains wardens to keep a pre-heresy air in my army) these guys will terrify any opponent we get and more so are likely to even survive due to the feel no pain rule.

I like playing JP infantry thats why I play with 20 assault marines and 3 ravens as a core for my army and i found that a DC dread (i love this model) and a 5 man DC supplements them very well. 

Besides if they do lose the heroic intervention rule as it is now then I really dont see any point in using them 

 

Please forgive my bad english (I am not a native speaker) and these are just my thoughts on the Vanguards

[Jolemai]

When this update goes live, we'll be the only army to have VVs doing Heroic Intervention the "classic" way.

 

Chances of an incoming FAQ change?

[Midnightmare]

Hope not!! The change is inevitable, but I would rather wait until the codex. Got to remember it goes both ways so I can't moan about my expensive troops lol

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Although my experience on the game and in Blood Angels tactics is not extensive, I have found out that we actually dont need another JP assault unit than the assault marines and the DC (not to mention the sanguinary guard), Vanguard vets are a boogeyman that when used will most likely be shred to pieces by our opponent and thusly allow our other units to advance up the board. Some might say that this is not such a bad thing but lets face it if we need a spooky assault unit why not use the dreaded DC with jumpacks and a warden (i calll my chaplains wardens to keep a pre-heresy air in my army) these guys will terrify any opponent we get and more so are likely to even survive due to the feel no pain rule.

I like playing JP infantry thats why I play with 20 assault marines and 3 ravens as a core for my army and i found that a DC dread (i love this model) and a 5 man DC supplements them very well. 

Besides if they do lose the heroic intervention rule as it is now then I really dont see any point in using them 

 

Please forgive my bad english (I am not a native speaker) and these are just my thoughts on the Vanguards

 

Vanguards are pretty significantly cheaper per man than JP DC and are the best unit we have for T2 assaults on Devs, Long Fangs etc. etc. No other unit can start in reserve and be in assault T2 like VV can.

[knife&fork]

Vanguards are pretty significantly cheaper per man than JP DC and are the best unit we have for T2 assaults on Devs, Long Fangs etc. etc. No other unit can start in reserve and be in assault T2 like VV can.

 

Anything in a drop pod? :P

 

VVs problem has always been that a shooty unit can do the same job for less.

[Father Mapple]

The drop pod contents have to survive a full enemy shooting phase, whereas Vanguard only have to survive an interceptor and overwatch (usually) from the unit they are assaulting.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Vanguards are pretty significantly cheaper per man than JP DC and are the best unit we have for T2 assaults on Devs, Long Fangs etc. etc. No other unit can start in reserve and be in assault T2 like VV can.

Anything in a drop pod?

VVs problem has always been that a shooty unit can do the same job for less.

I use Drop Pods so seldomly that I often overlook their very existence. Oops.

[knife&fork]

The drop pod contents have to survive a full enemy shooting phase, whereas Vanguard only have to survive an interceptor and overwatch (usually) from the unit they are assaulting.

 

They also have to survive the assault.... and preferably win it. And that's not taking into accounts a failed assault move , dangerous terrain or DS mishaps. 

 

VV get stupidly expensive fast when you want to be able to take on something larger than a combat squad...

 

Loss of the old HI isn't a huge loss, at least not for C:SM

[Memento Of Prospero]

VV are a disruption unit. Taking them as cheaply as possible is the best way to play them. The problem is that the fragioso can do far more damage and is also extremely durable. Thus as with all competing units, VV just get swept under the rug.

[Chaplain Admetus]

When I use them, which is admittedly rare, I like to take them as 5 guys, with jump packs, and two tote meltabombs. Along with a free power sword/glaive encarmine, that'll normally do the trick. Charge them in against a vehicle that's causing issues with the melta, or against a small shooty squad where 4 attacks each on the charge will generally do fine. They're great for getting rid of things that cause problems at range, such as longfangs, lootas (in small squads), the occasional battle tank, or even rifleman dreads. Almost every army will have something you can take on with them. Things like long fangs, they don't even need to beat - if they're in combat, you've neutralised a potent long-range unit for a turn or two, and bought the rest of the army time to get close.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

When I use them, which is admittedly rare, I like to take them as 5 guys, with jump packs, and two tote meltabombs. Along with a free power sword/glaive encarmine, that'll normally do the trick. Charge them in against a vehicle that's causing issues with the melta, or against a small shooty squad where 4 attacks each on the charge will generally do fine. They're great for getting rid of things that cause problems at range, such as longfangs, lootas (in small squads), the occasional battle tank, or even rifleman dreads. Almost every army will have something you can take on with them. Things like long fangs, they don't even need to beat - if they're in combat, you've neutralised a potent long-range unit for a turn or two, and bought the rest of the army time to get close.

 

I give mine an Axe as well as the VS's PS, three Melta Bombs and use them exactly as you do, to pretty good effect, though generally I only get to assault Long Fangs/Devs/Havocs the one time, then opponents learn their mistake. I toyed with a SS on the VS instead of the Axe, but it was too expensive and unreliable on a 1W model.

 

Still good for eliminating/tieing up anything that has to be deployed at ground level, though.

[Leksington]

 

Latest rumours say that heroic intervention is now not getting the disordered charge penalty, and the sarge can always pass his glorious intervention roll.  

 

Rumours also say they lose the ability to strike after the strike. 

 

To be honest, right now I'm really glad it's not the Blood Angels getting an update. Everything that made the Vanguard Veterans interesting(for us) is that heroic intervention rule. Assault after deepstrike, BAM. Take out units hiding in the backfield, even with a horrible price tag. It's just a tactical option that's available to the army.

Once we're getting in line with C:SM, they'll probably lose that rule as well and be just another close combat JP unit, of which we have enough already.

 

So for when we're due for an update, let's hope for a different approach on these guys. For C:SM, it's an improvement. For BA, everything but a point reduction would be a little meh.

 

 

 

Snorri

 

How much do you want to bet that GW will FAQ our Heroic Intervention to read the same as the new C:SM Heroic Intervention?  I will be shocked if our our VV don't get nerfed (without the point reduction) upon release of the SM codex.

[Chaplain Admetus]

Meh... its kind of a non-issue. Not many players use VGV these days as it is, and we have other good options in our Fast Attack slot. I don't think they'd flat out nerf us, but there is a chance we'd get the Storm Raven treatment (errata'ed so that our Skies of Blood went away and we were made to use the blue version).

[Demoulius]

Tbh VGV arent used by most BA armies because we have troop ASM squads. Codex marines dont have that so if they can choose between normal ASM and VGV who are only slighty more expensive BUT will keep their attacks if multi-charging I dont think its unlikely that people will take them more.

What makes our current heroic inervention so good is that we only scatter 1D6 and with premeasure its fairly easy to ensure you dont scatter ontop of something. Nearly guarranteed first turn charge right there :D

I tend to not multi-charge as often as I used to either. All my regular opponents learned to spread their units after last edition charges from my furious charing assault marines tbh they fear them alot more then they should in this edition (loss of initiative on the charge with FC for example) but their history with them haunts them. I think the current heroic intervention suits us more anyway. More heroic and awesome if you ask me