Defiler Attacks

[Teetengee]

So I ran a defiler the other day (first time out of the new codex) with power scourge and reaper autocannon. I was wondering how many attacks it gets.

a) 3 attacks: the powerfists are included in the base 3 attacks and the power scourge is not a specialist weapon so it adds no attacks.

3 attacks: the powerfists are included in the base 3 attacks and the power scourge is a third cc weapon so it adds no attacks.

c) 4 attacks: the powerfists are included in the base 3 attacks and the power scourge adds an attack.

d) 4 attacks: the powerfists are not included in the base 3 attacks and the power scourge is not a specialist weapon so it adds no attacks.

e) 4 attacks: the powerfists are not included in the base 3 attacks and the power scourge is a third cc weapon so it adds no attacks.

f) 5 attacks: the powerfists are not included in the base 3 attacks and the power scourge adds an attack.

EDIT: Is there anyway to unemoticon the b parens. I don't want to add a space because it will bother me like a sore tooth.

[Dam13n]

You have 3A basic plus 2 specialist weapons for +1A. The scourge isn't a specialist weapon itself and the defiler you specified has no other non-specialist melee weapons (in addition to the scourge) so no +1A for 2 melee weapons.

 

Total 4A (not including bonuses for charging etc.)

 

Or 'd' in your list.

 

Now if you swapped the Reaper for a 3rd power fist then you would gain +2A for 3 specialist weapons (as per the walker rules on page 84) for 5A.

 

In reality, the scourge on the Defiler is purely to nerf enemies WS, not to gain any attacks. Especially as you don't have to attack with it to benefit from the flail special rule.

[Spinsanity]

Sorry Dam1en, you are incorrect.

 

Correct answer is a mix of D and E : the scourge is not a specialist weapon so it adds no extra attack, but even if it was, you can only get a maximum of +1 attack for having multiple CC weapons (see p.24  : +1 Two Weapons: [...] Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit [...])

 

You therefore wouldn't benefit from having a 3rd PFist, which means the option is completely useless, unless you definitely want to protect yourself against weapon destroyed results...

 

+Edit : corrected statement above (see further replies below...)

[Raeven]

Don't walkers have a special rule that gives them plus 1 attack for every close combat weapon they are armed with on top of their regular attacks?

[nurglez]

page 84,

If a walker is armed with two or more melee weapons, it gains a +1 bonus attack for each additional weapon after the first, unlike other models, this is not limited to a single bonus attack, so a walker with three melee weapons would have 2 bonus attacks.

The power scourge isn't a specialist weapon. So the defiler would infact have 5 attacks (+2 for 3 close combat weapons), as they only give the basic number of attacks on the profile.

Unless I'm wrong

[Spinsanity]

Ahh figures, I forgot the walkers rule... Yeah, the walker gets +1 attack for the two fists, but not another for the scourge, though, as stated... unless he gets a 3rd fist, of course. (So Dam13n WAS right, I'll amend my post above! :P)

[nurglez]

Doesn't need a 3rd fist. Needs a 3rd weapon. Which it has, the scourge is a weapon. So it gets +2 attacks for 3 weapons

[Teetengee]

Thanks all.

[Dam13n]

Now having the rulebook in front of me:

 

BRB Page 42 - Specialist Weapon:

"A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 attack for fighting with two weapons unless both weapons have the specialist weapon rule"

 

BRB Page 84 - Walkers in Assault:

"If a Walker is armed with 2 or more melee weapons, it gains +1A for each additional weapon after the first"

 

So if you're attacking with the power fists you won't receive an extra attack for having the scourge, as it doesn't have the specialist weapon USR.

- RAW of the Specialist Weapons USR - Advanced rule (SW) trumps Basic (Walker).

 

Now with the walkers special rule that grants +1 attack for each melee weapon after the first, and power fists are "melee, specialist weapon".  You could argue that you would gain +2A if you attack with the scourge (S8 AP2) as your chosen melee weapon, as you have 2 melee weapons in addition to the scourge.

- RAW of the Walker Assault Rules - assuming that "fighting with" in the SW USR means "using that melee profile" - if it doesn't, then one could argue that you get +0A!! (see *)

 

This leaves you with a decision - either to get +1A at S10 AP2 (using the power fists) or +2A at S8 AP2 using the scourge.

- now this applies the RAW as correctly as I believe I can.

 

*  Now as you can see - a fair amount of the above is likely to vary according to interpretation - what do GW mean by "fighting with" when it comes to specialist weapons?  Surely if I'm using them to gain +1A for a 2nd weapon, or even +2 for a 3rd weapon, then I'm "fighting with" them.

 

Thoughts?

 

Regardless, due to the way that the flail special rule is worded, you gain the benefit whether you use it's melee profile or not.

[Raeven]

Uh, walkers are advanced rules too. The specialist weapon doesn't apply or limit walkers bonus attacks from extra ccw weapons after the first.

[Dam13n]

Where does it say that it doesn't apply to walkers?

 

The USR (quoted above) says "a model" a walker is a model so will be affected unless it specifically states that it doesn't.

 

For example, the unwieldy USR specifically states that walkers and monsters are unaffected. There is no such line for specialist weapons.

 

Note: the walker rules are more basic than the USRs because they apply to all models with the unit type - vehicle, walker.

 

All special rules are advanced because they only apply to models with that special rule or those armed with weapons with that special rule. In other words they change the way that model functions from its basic unit type in some way.

[Raeven]

Basic rules are between pages 10 and 31.  "When advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."

 

Both Vehicles and USR's are advanced rules.

 

Specialist Weapon only restricts the basic rule that gives you a +1 attack for having two weapons, requiring you to have two specialist weapons to gain the same bonus.  The Walker rule gives you a +1 bonus attack for each "melee" weapon after the first.  No mention of specialist weapons restricting the bonus attacks for Walkers.

 

Essentially, the Walker special rule overrides the Basic rule that Specialist Weapon modifies, therefore the USR Specialist Weapon doesn't apply to Walkers as the rules are written.

[Dam13n]

Why does it override it?

You're stating things as a fact without any evidence.

There is nothing in the walker special rules that overrides the specialist weapon special rule. Walkers are not mentioned in the specialist weapon USR as an exception on page 42. There is also no mention of the specialist weapon rules being ignored by walkers in the walker rules on page 84 either.

The walker rules are more basic as they apply to all walkers. Special rules are more advanced in that they modify those more basic rules, introducing exceptions and adding extra rules to the more basic rules. One cannot say that the rules fundamental to unit types are truly advanced, as they form the basic structure of the game.

In fact the specialist weapon special rule overrides the multiple melee weapon rules (as detailed in the assault rules). The walker rules only remove the limit of +1A for multiple weapons. It doesn't overrule specialist weapons.

- - - - -

Raeven - I've said this before to you - please back up your opinions either with quoted rules or references to the page where the rule that supports your statement is found - otherwise your argument is just opinion and therefore redundant from a RAW perspective. You consistently do not do this and it is a requirement listed in the forum rules which are stickied at the top of this sub-forum.

 

- - - - -

 

Edit:  I've submitted this to the FAQ team for clarification - even though I feel the RAW is clear enough as it is.

[Raeven]

I apologize for leaving out page numbers.  I'm stating these things as fact because they are facts.  You might want to follow your own advice.  I see nary a page number to support your own argument.

 

Basic Rules

 

Pg. 7  Basic vs. Advanced

"Basic rules...found between pages 10 and 31."

 

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate damaged flesh), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal Infantry models (a Bike, a Swarm, or even a Tank)."

 

"Where advances rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."

 

Pg. 28  Number of Attacks

 

"+1 Two Weapons:  Engaged models with two single handed weapons (often a Melee weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get +1 Attack.  Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit, you only get one extra attack, even if you have four arms and a sword in each."

 

 

Advanced Rules

 

Pg. 42  Specialist Weapon

See entry.  Relevant part of the entry, "unless both weapons have the Specialist Weapon rule."

 

Pg. 84  Walkers and Assaults

"If a Walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains +1 bonus for each additional weapon after the first."

 

 

Back to the Defiler to illustrate my point.

 

 

The Defilers gets three base attacks and has 2 powerfists and can take the powerscourge.  The PF are spec weaps.  The scourge is not. 

 

Special Weap allows +1 attack for two Spec Weapons. 

Walker rules say a +2 attacks for having 3 melee weapons, giving it five attacks total.  Under your argument, the Special Weapon rule is satisfied because the Defiler has 2 of them.

 

 

Now, lets say the Defiler only had a single powerfist and took two scourges.

 

Special weapon rule disallows +1 attack bonus for lack of two Spec Weapons.

Still gets +2 attacks because it has 3 melee weapons, as per Walker Rule.

 

Sti

[Dam13n]

So you missed the fact that I used page 42 and page 84 as references in my statement (both listed in the 3rd paragraph)?  I also quoted both rules in my first post, and have referenced back to that as well when posting.

- I can edit my last post and highlight them for you if that would help?

 

- - - - -

 

So you attack with the powerfist

 

It has the specialist weapon rule

 

Therefore in order for an additional weapon to grant +1A it needs to have the specialist weapon rule

- as clearly defined by the specialist weapon rule

- it also states model, not infantry - or any other unit type to restrict that rule

- this means it should apply to walkers as well

- unwieldy (also a special rule) has to include a specific exemption for walkers and monsters in order for them to be exempt

- specialist weapon has no such specified exemption - so walkers aren't exempt

 

The scourge does not have the specialist weapon rule so cannot be combined with a powerfist for +1A (either for 2 melee weapons or 3 or 4... etc.)

- what limits an infantry model to +1 is the standard melee rules

- walkers allow more than +1A for multiple melee weapons but don't at any point say that the specialist weapons rule is ignored when calculating that number.

 

BRB Page 28:  Number of Attacks

"+1 Two Weapons:  Engaged models with two single handed weapons (often a Melee weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get +1 Attack.  Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit, you only get one extra attack, even if you have four arms and a sword in each."

 

What this boils down to is that you receive +1A for an additional CCW, this is capped at +1 for all models that lack an appropriate exemption (walkers being the exempt unit type)

 

BRB Page 84 - Walkers in Assault:

"If a Walker is armed with 2 or more melee weapons, it gains +1A for each additional weapon after the first"

 

Interacting this with specialist weapons:

 

BRB Page 42 - Specialist Weapon:

"A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 attack for fighting with two weapons unless both weapons have the specialist weapon rule"

 

You only get the +1A for an additional weapon if that weapon also has the specialist weapon rule.  Again usually capped at +1 with walkers being exempt from that limit.

 

- - - - -

 

With the example Defiler in mind:

 

Each bonus attack is effectively conferred by 2 weapons.  Lets say that you pick Power Fist #1 as your chosen melee weapon:

 

Power Fist #1 + Power Fist #2 = 2 Specialist Weapons so grants +1A

Power Fist #1 + Power Scourge =/= 2 specialist weapons so doesn't grant +1A

 

- - - - -

 

Now, I do see your logic, and I can understand how you are coming to your conclusion - I just disagree with it.  The main reason being the lack of a listed exemption to the specialist weapon USR for walkers in the BRB.

I suspect that only an FAQ answer will conclude that disagreement, so (looking to avoid giving the mods more reason to hate us :P ) I'll offer an "agree to disagree" sentiment for now and we can always pick this up when (hopefully) the next batch of FAQs gives us a clear answer.

 

(The simple fact being that the Defiler is such a terrible unit selection gameplay-wise that it is unlikely that either/any of us will encounter this problem in a game any time soon)

[Raeven]

I wasn't referring to the Walker and Specialist Weapon rule.  Those have been quoted elsewhere in the thread and their interpretation wasn't in argument.  I was referring to your position regarding Basic vs. Advanced rules.  You know, the linchpin of your argument.  Sorry for not being specific.

[Spinsanity]

I too would say the walker rules do not supersede the specialist weapon rule simply because of e wording on page 84 : the rule specifically mentions the usual +1 attack limit as being the rule being ignored here, not the specialist weapon rule...

[Dam13n]

Raeven - hence why I amended my previous posts. I usually post using my mobile, as such the odd wording error seeps in.

 

I see the special rules as being more advanced than unit types as their effects alter the way that a unit type functions but a unit type doesn't alter a special rule except where listed as an exception.

 

Such as unwieldy for example.